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Su-57 News and Discussion -version_we_lost_count!-

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    #21
    [QUOTE]And really. they have stated quite clearly where the problem lie: 5gen planes (ANY of them) are much more in need "of finer service" i.e. they not just need more maintenance hour compared to a 4,5 gen but even specifically built tools.[QUOTE]

    Of course you have information to support your assertion of “specific tools”, because one of the goals was to reduce the number and different types of tools from legacy aircraft. Maintenance hours ? Sure, I’ll give you that. The F-35 is trending downward but will likely end up higher than the F-16.

    Comment


      #22
      Originally posted by FalconDude
      Hey hey hey, first of all, this piece of news was available online -and to this day I have no idea if it is fake or real-, and second I would think that the reason it was posted in the Su-57 thread is quite evident and it is not because I have anything against the plane nor Russians. If you cannot see that I ain't gonna school you.
      Oh, it was available online, sold. I certainly don't find the reason to post it in the Su-57 thread "evident" at all so please do "school" me, if you weren't in fact just trolling and now unable to justify your dumb behavior. Even posting that piece of obvious fake news in F-35 thread would have been dubious, because the crediblity was so low, for anyone with a working brain. Maybe if there was an argument about Iran buying Su-57 to beef up their air defense, then you might have had an argument to post that rubbish, but that wasn't the case.

      Originally posted by FalconDude
      Why don't you help us with the obvious first and just tell us who these people (Gutenev etc) are and why you have no faith in their statements?
      I already did. Can you read? He is a member of Duma and currently heads one of the talking groups there on "legal support on development of military industrial complex", it doesn't make any decisions and has absolutely no power to decide on how many Su-57s will be produced. And as I mentioned he made other dubious claims like Su-57 being 2.5 times cheaper than F-35 and 4 Su-57s being in Syria. And indeed the claim that the Russians were testing in Syria whether F-22 and F-35 were able to see Su-57 is ridiculous on many levels. First that the Russians would have the access to what the Americans see. Second, if the Russians had done this and had the access to the US systems, that this Duma member could release this kind of extremely sensitive information without going to jail for a long time, is ludicrous. Thirdly as we can see from the timeline, the one Su-57 bort, which has even superficially the basic RCS treatment in place, wasn't available for the Syria trip. Apart from T-50-10 the other frames don't even have metallization of the frontal canopy.

      Even the idea that the Russians would specifically want to expose the actually RCS ready aircraft to hostile radars is idiotic. They have plenty of radar sites where they can test Su-57's radar signature to heart's content. The fact that ActionJackson is jizzing himself, shouldn't impress you so much. He is a notorious troll. If you don't remember and understand it from his behavior, just look at the signature he put. Why would a sane person want to put that as signature? What is the purpose of it? To flame and to bait as trolls do.

      One can wonder the reasons for Gutenev's obviously nonsensical comment's, maybe he just likes to idea of 6th gen fighter drones of which he fantasized in the statement and tries to push it like this.
      Last edited by Bellum; 5th July 2018, 19:10.

      Comment


        #23
        Why is everyone ignoring the main point?

        Some things have been stated, by apparently, some officials. Questions remain..

        *Who are these guys?
        *Under what authority are they involved in Defence programmes?
        *What would the extend of their involvement be?
        *What is their track record with making public statements of fact?
        *Russian speaking, members, will you please read that article/statement and give us your opinion on what it was about and what it was saying?

        Note *******Bellum beat me to this, I'll read his post and then may delete this one.

        Note2 ******I've read Bellum's post, but I will leave this up, I don't want anyone to think I take things down.

        Right, at the point...

        Oh, it was available online, sold. I certainly don't find the reason to post it in the Su-57 thread "evident" at all so please do "school" me, if you weren't in fact just trolling and now unable to justify your dumb behavior. Even posting that piece of obvious fake news in F-35 thread would have been dubious, because the crediblity was so low, for anyone with a working brain. Maybe if there was an argument about Iran buying Su-57 to beef up their air defense, then you might have had an argument to post that rubbish, but that wasn't the case.
        The story was re-published by at least onε respectable aviation website (Greek) other than the original source which I linked at swerve's request.

        The Greek link:
        https://www.ptisidiastima.com/f-35i-...ar-as-isfahan/

        Google translate will help you. Unless you only deem worthy, sources that you use, in which case please provide us with a link !

        As to the reason I posted it in that thread, I think it is quite clear. If the technological (and generational) equivalent of the Su-57 can indeed achieve such a feat, then it is directly related to the development of the subject plane, no?

        Isn't the F-35 the plane the Su-57 is supposed to counter and/or match? (and the similar or better F-22)?

        Suppose we go back in time and Russia is trying to build a mach 2 plane to counter a US alleged 2 mach plane and the latest news infer a performance of mach 1.9 for the Russian plane, when news break out that a radar caught the US plane doing mach 2.4, would you NOT want to comment on it on that thread??????

        As for
        Even the idea that the Russians would specifically want to expose the actually RCS ready aircraft to hostile radars is idiotic. They have plenty of radar sites where they can test Su-57's radar signature to heart's content. The fact that ActionJackson is jizzing himself, shouldn't impress you so much.
        Yes, I posted something very similar at the time...
        And yet they flew it all the way to Syria, a heavily contested EW space!! I wonder how you interpret that, because weapons tests don't stop others from snooping at you.

        And it brings me to the last point....why should we take your word and not that of an official (according to the info you brought forward.) Unless fools are regularly in officials positions in current Russia politics stage.
        Last edited by FalconDude; 5th July 2018, 19:52.

        Comment


          #24
          ^ I'm still not sure why he posted that in the su 57 thread. Even after reading that.

          Either way, that news belongs in the same category as the news about the F-35 that was hit by something (Israel says bird, Syria says projectile) while it was flying around Syrian border areas. This was the same area where an f-16i was shot down and where an F-15 got hit.

          I'm really not sure if the F-35 got hit by a Syrian projectile. But one thing I am sure of, is that news belongs in the same category as the F-35 that allegedly made an appearance at an Iranian airshow

          Comment


            #25
            Alright, let's clear some air here.

            * Su-57 is to replace current T-10 platform (Su-27, 30, 35), with 35 being the last of the model.

            * Su-57 is nearly ready for full production. It has only to wait on the engines. NPO ISTOk has already produced over 25,000 T/R modules from an interview over a year ago (so much more now) and so their radar system has been more than ready.

            * We don't know the cost of per plane until we see a contract signed. Su-35 is at the ~$30M per plane mark much like majority of the other jets (Su-34, 30, MiG-35). Su-57 will be more costly at first but will eventually drop to the lower end in near future.

            * Some are dreaming of 6th gen, but we don't really know what 6th gen is yet so no point talking about it.

            * Current plan is for 12 Su-57's by 2025. That number can easily change since nothing is in writing.

            Comment


              #26
              Suppose we go back in time and Russia is trying to build a mach 2 plane to counter a US alleged 2 mach plane and the latest news infer a performance of mach 1.9 for the Russian plane, when news break out that a radar caught the US plane doing mach 2.4, would you NOT want to comment on it on that thread??????
              You do understand that PakFa entered development late, due to Russia strives after fall of SU?

              You do understand what the acronym PakFa stands for?

              You do understand that in case of Russia, if they gonna make the PakFa really capable, then it will cost em, and Russia can't throw $Billions around?

              Gutenev is probably a Senator sitting in some Russian Defense committee. That does not make him a Need to Know or a decision maker in any way.

              And there are plenty of foul Russian "officials" that you request.. remember Dmitri Rogozin?
              He was probably under wraps on PakFa development, but that did not stop him from talking out of his @ss all the time.

              So much for officials..

              Su-57 will replace Flanker, but its a looong road ahead.
              Thanks

              Comment


                #27
                That Russian guy was talking apparently in the same intervention about characteristics of the Russian 6G planes and talking a lot of other things, like stealth is not relevant (some here did skip that part apparently), cruise speed will be close to 1 M but with AB hypersonic and other nonsense. He IS talking out of his ass very much my friends

                So, will we be intelligent enough to close this rather idiotic discussion about whether Su-57 will be cancelled? Please!

                Comment


                  #28
                  I can't see how this sophistry from Action Jackson doesn't count as blatant trolling which is against the forum rules.

                  Taking a poorly worded and translated rambling from an industry union mouth piece & claiming that he is saying that the Pak Fa is a failed program in the same week that the actual planned 1st order was signed, is trolling.

                  Almost 15 years after the F-22 Raptor became operational, the backbone of the USAF are still 4th gen F-16 and F-15 fighters. Anyone who's getting in a tizzy because the su 57 isn't going to be mass produced in 2018 , just isn't taking this into consideration.
                  Last edited by KGB; 6th July 2018, 03:10.

                  Comment


                    #29
                    Crew, it seems me that you are just adding confusion (and flames) to an already tangled argument.

                    Let me just reply to someone in orden to clarify some point:
                    @ FBW I honestly don't understand if in your post are you talking about su-57 or F-35.
                    Because I kinda remember that one of the goals stated in the latter development was to reduce tools when compared to legacy planes, while I am not aware of anything similar said about Su-57.
                    let's say that there is a lot of difference regarding tooling and above all environmental requirements between a legacy western plane and Sov/Russian ones, actual or old.

                    In any case a stealth plane need specific tooling compared to a more conventional, just for keeping their own level of RCS over time.

                    Surely the tooling needed by F-35 will be more efficient that the logistical nightmares of the "legacy" F-117, B-2 and F-22A but they will pose a significant burden anyway.
                    And Russian have no legacy VLO planes, so the use of the term "finer services" made sense according to their own POW.

                    @ FalconDude

                    Isn't the F-35 the plane the Su-57 is supposed to counter and/or match? (and the similar or better F-22)?
                    Well, No ,no, no and against no.
                    Russians have never had anything that would even getting close to the concept and the production share of the low end multirole fighters of the USAF.
                    Both during the Cold War than today they had a vaste array of planes, each covering a well specific mission.
                    So there will not be NEVER a plane like the F-35 accounting for the 80% of the total fighter line in russian service, like there were not a single counterpart of the F-16 during Cold War but several specialized models (ever more than one for a given role like in the case of Su-17/Mig-27).

                    @KGB

                    Statements
                    * Su-57 is to replace current T-10 platform (Su-27, 30, 35), with 35 being the last of the model
                    and
                    * Current plan is for 12 Su-57's by 2025. That number can easily change since nothing is in writing
                    are contradictory one another and make not sense.
                    The procedure of ordering just a batch at time it's not an oddity but a cardinal point of russian procurement system like also the one of having in store both a model making the best possible use of actual technologies (i.e. the Su-35 in the given case) and one (the PAK-FA) pushing forward to keep the pace of technological advancement.
                    Given that russian state control both the research bureaus, the production facility than the armed forces they have not to ensure a several decades long commitment to buy planes in the orders of hundreds or thousands pieces from the industry in order to get them to invest in the project.
                    They pay bureaus for prototypes, production facilities for putting on an assembly and decide the production numbers on the very run, according to the actual situation, not placing orders several years before the actual finalization of a project.

                    Comment


                      #30
                      There have also been written that both Su-34 and Su-35S will see further upgrade. I take it that Flanker production will run side by side with a LIRP Su-57
                      Thanks

                      Comment


                        #31
                        Originally posted by haavarla
                        You do understand that PakFa entered development late, due to Russia strives after fall of SU?

                        You do understand what the acronym PakFa stands for?

                        You do understand that in case of Russia, if they gonna make the PakFa really capable, then it will cost em, and Russia can't throw $Billions around?
                        I don't see how these have any connection with what I was trying to say, sorry.

                        Originally posted by haavarla
                        Gutenev is probably a Senator sitting in some Russian Defense committee. That does not make him a Need to Know or a decision maker in any way.
                        I think people established that he heads a commitee in the Duma(?), but that is perhaps less important, what is important is he himself is referring to a statement made by the deputy prime-minister. Are we to not attach any significance to what the deputy prime minister said either? (Note, I have no Idea what he deputy prime-minister's original statements were, just go by what the text infers)

                        Originally posted by Marcellogo
                        Well, No ,no, no and against no.
                        Russians have never had anything that would even getting close to the concept and the production share of the low end multirole fighters of the USAF.
                        Both during the Cold War than today they had a vaste array of planes, each covering a well specific mission.
                        So there will not be NEVER a plane like the F-35 accounting for the 80% of the total fighter line in russian service, like there were not a single counterpart of the F-16 during Cold War but several specialized models (ever more than one for a given role like in the case of Su-17/Mig-27).
                        It was stated however many times over here by our more learned contributors that the Su-57 is mainly antagonising the F-35. I am not judging whether this is right or wrong, I merely posted a piece of information, that if true (as I don't know that) could mean a lot for the development targets of said Su-57. That's all.

                        May I also point out that one of the criticism points around the F-22 was based on the existance of only 187 of these things. Now someone -high up enough- suggests there might even be less than that for the Su-57 and no one bats an eye? I thought that was the point.





                        In any case, these statements (by the russian officials) were made a few days ago. Have we had any response from 'other' Russian officials that may or may not know more? Was there any response at all? Not a single journalist cared to write an article in any russian speaking website or newspaper about these?
                        Last edited by FalconDude; 6th July 2018, 12:07.

                        Comment


                          #32
                          Originally posted by FalconDude
                          Not a single journalist dared to write an article in any russian speaking website or newspaper about these?
                          May I suggest this to correct your typo?

                          Comment


                            #33
                            Not a single article has been written about this. Because there is nothing here. You and Action Jackson are making propaganda out of whole cloth.

                            You have started a small propaganda brush fire. Tyler Rogoway might find this thread and make an article about it.
                            Last edited by KGB; 8th July 2018, 21:37.

                            Comment


                              #34
                              Originally posted by KGB View Post
                              ^^Um yes Falcondude. Not a single article has been written about this. Because there is nothing here. You and Action Jackson are making propaganda out of whole cloth.

                              You have started a small propaganda brush fire. Tyler Rogoway might find this thread and make an article about it.
                              Pls stop KGB. You are only embarrsing yourself
                              Thanks

                              Comment


                                #35
                                Originally posted by TomcatViP View Post
                                May I suggest this to correct your typo?

                                As we have witness many times. Most Journalist don't have a clue about Aviation.

                                And 90% only spread along hearsay and official Biased statement.

                                Critical or negative issue about PakFa is reserved for Sukhoi PakFa director board only.
                                Does not take a PHd grade to figure out RT would not write any negative narretive on PakFa.
                                Thanks

                                Comment


                                  #36
                                  So we have an article now from Military Watch magazine that references the Vladimir Gutenev statement and obviously , like we already knew, the interpretation by the sophists Falcondude and Actionjackson is just that.

                                  But they will still spin it. I'll get back to that.

                                  http://militarywatchmagazine.com/article/70750

                                  Quoted from the article:

                                  - The Su-57 program is very much a sixth generation air superiority fighter program, one which at early stages can serve as a high end fifth generation aircraft comparable to the American Raptor - as in the case of the 12 initial production production variants ordered by the Air Force, but ultimately the Russian military began the program with a greater end in mind.

                                  -The end goal of the Su-57 is to be able to go head to head with the American sixth generation air superiority fighter currently being developed to replace the Raptor under the F/A-XX next generation air dominance fighter.

                                  -Further enhancements to electronic warfare capabilities and radar jamming, stealth, next generation engines, the use of hypersonic and energy weapons and the deployment of defensive missile blinding lasers are among the systems which a completed sixth generation variant of the Su-57 is likely to deploy.

                                  -Unlike the Su-57, the F-22 is a purely fifth generation fighter and has seen little invested in its modernization.

                                  -Russia doesn’t need a massive Su-57 fifth generation fleet to protect itself or maintain parity with the Western Bloc at present, but it will in the not too distant future have considerable need for a sixth generation air superiority fighter capable of matching the upcoming American platform.

                                  Now. Here is how the sophists will spin it.

                                  The article also says this:

                                  Russia's cutting edge air defense network and its heavily upgraded ‘4++’ generation fighter fleet, backed up by advanced electronic warfare technologies which are reportedly heavily relied on to compensate for a lack of stealth, are more than enough to retain sufficient parity with the Western Bloc that they will be cautious about challenging the Russian fleet openly - in Syria, Eastern Europe, the Pacific or elsewhere.

                                  ^They will say that the "lack of stealth" that is written here, INCLUDES the coming batch of 12 su 57's. But it does not. Because before that sentence, it says this : "It is first critical to understand that at present Russia has no urgent need for the Su-57". So no. The "lack of stealth, does not imply that the Russian force will lack stealth with the first batch of su 57's. Even though that's what Falcondue and Action Jackson will say.
                                  Last edited by KGB; 8th July 2018, 21:38.

                                  Comment


                                    #37
                                    @KGB

                                    When Su-57 took off they planed +200 for Russian air force, 50 before 2021, and then oil price drop plus sanctions, and India probable left program.

                                    So money is reason why they are buying smaller number of Su-57, nothing else. If India return or economy recover be sure they will order more Su-57.

                                    BTW if you don't believe me:
                                    tass.com/defense/994572

                                    Money is problem.

                                    P.S. What official say we can only consider as PR, so when they say "no problem because Su-35 is the best so we don't need mass produced Su-57 now or in near future" we just
                                    Last edited by Krivakapa; 8th July 2018, 22:36.

                                    Comment


                                      #38
                                      I think legend has it that heavy supporters of the F-35 and F-22 spend more of their time on SU-57 threads than they do on their F-22 and F-35 threads hence multiple SU-57 and Russian air-force threads always have so many views on a neutral forum like this. Thank you critics for making this aircraft more popular anyways.

                                      " in fact USA is stronger (F-35 is in production, military budget never higher) and we now are reading about 12 Su-57 until 2025? 3 I heard in by the end of this 12 for full batch in 2019.

                                      "nothing special didn't change from then (F-22 fleet reduced, F-35 canceled) " Heard the Pentagon was going to cut some numbers on the F-35s if certain criteria were not met.

                                      Bragging about production of 5th gen aircraft no one seems to care about here that much. Everyone is more focused the features of the SU-57 than they are about the production. All their investments are on defense system networks anyways. Also few by the end of 2018 12 by 2019 according to the politicians, CEO and military officials.

                                      A network administrator achieved 99.99 uptime for example making this server have 52.60 minutes of down time for year which is still pretty good. But that does not make the admin anymore a rookie for trying to increase the up time to 99.999 by applying principles like multiple redundancy of having an extra server if this one went down. More of like a Mesh Topology with multiple links that if one link is down there is another way to still have a connection to another device keeping everything running.
                                      Last edited by panzerfeist1; 9th July 2018, 21:38.

                                      Comment


                                        #39
                                        Su-57 6 generation?

                                        I had to read many times these articles because i thought it was april fool day in Russia.

                                        I think this man told this after drink 1 or 2 bottles of vodka.

                                        Comment


                                          #40
                                          -Russia doesnt need a massive Su-57 fifth generation fleet to protect itself or maintain parity with the Western Bloc at present, but it will in the not too distant future have considerable need for a sixth generation air superiority fighter capable of matching the upcoming American platform.

                                          This is a crazy sentence. Only fanboys can believe it.

                                          This man tell with other words that they will build few Su-57 because with 4 generation fleet is enough for protect against 5 generation fleet from West.

                                          Stop lies man; if you are going to have few numbers of SU-57 it is only for 2 reasons, or you do not have money for to buy big quantidy of this airplane, or the other option is that this airplane have problems and you do not want buy many until you can fix these problems on airplane.

                                          This sentence of this man can be good for RT and Sputnik readers, for nobody more.

                                          Comment


                                           

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