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  • Y-20 Bacon
    Senior Member

    Korean Aviation Industry Thread

    Turkey has its own thread, certainly Korea should have one. This includes South Korea and Best Korea.

    The other day the Marine version of the Surion (probably the ugliest modern gen light weight utility helicopter) was revealed.



    What is the potential of this chopper in the export market? The Koreans seemed to have developed many variants of this, surely there is something for everyone.
  • alexz
    Rank 5 Registered User

    #2
    This is basically a license built Aerospatiale Puma with a hideous gorilla nostrill like air intake. It would only sell if it is cheaper than blackhawks, 412s, AW139s etc etc.

    Comment

    • Y-20 Bacon
      Senior Member

      #3
      ^ well if wikipedia is correct, then it is cheaper than the Blackhawk

      Comment

      • EagleSpirit
        Rank 5 Registered User

        #4
        Korean's are very 'meh' about it. Unlike the T-50, general opinion is that there was not enough learnt about Rotary-wing aircraft development due to over-ambition/under-funding. It's just a slight visual mod of a licence produced Super Puma. We get to make it/export it so it's not bad per se, just disappointing to some that wanted a 'Korean' helicopter.

        Then again, before 2010 with all the export failures, the T-50 was considered a somewhat failure. Now if the T-50A wins the T-X tender then it would become wildly successful within the space of a decade. So maybe it's too early to judge the Surion.

        Here's the 2018 corporate PR video:

        And here is a brochure (It's a direct DL link so heads up): http://www.koreaaero.com/data_file/B...ochure_ENG.zip (Nice KF-X C107 photoshop on pages 24/25)

        Comment

        • Y-20 Bacon
          Senior Member

          #5
          thanks! that explains why the Surion had this really retro look to it. Its got Puma DNA

          Comment

          • EagleSpirit
            Rank 5 Registered User

            #6
            Tangentially related to Korean Aerospace Industry: http://english.yonhapnews.co.kr/news...004000315.html

            SEOUL, Jan. 10 (Yonhap) -- South Korea's top Air Force commander will soon visit Turkey and Indonesia to promote mutual defense cooperation and support Seoul's arms exports, his unit said Wednesday.
            Lee will collect opinions on South Korea-made KT-1 basic trainer jets exported to Turkey beginning in 2010 and discuss its request for Turkish pilots to train in South Korea, the Air Force said.
            I guess the Turkish AF doesn't have enough instructors after the purge? Or is it a lack of equipment that's the issue?

            Comment

            • BlackArcher
              Rank 5 Registered User

              #7
              KAI T-50s on delivery flight to RTAF, grounded with unspecified issues. Delivery to RTAF has been delayed indefinitely.

              KUALA LUMPUR—Delivery of two Korean Aerospace KAI T-50s to the Royal Thai Air Force (RTAF) has been delayed indefinitely after the trainers suffered unspecified technical faults in a difficult ferry flight.

              The T-50s were flying over South China on the way to Thailand when they encountered severe weather that forced the crews to land at Kuantan Airport, on the east coast of the Malaysian peninsula, RTAF says in a statement.

              Upon landing, visual inspection revealed that the aircraft need further, more thorough technical checks, it says. KAI told the RTAF that, pending the checks, delivery would be delayed indefinitely.

              Two RTAF pilots were onboard the two-seat trainers with KAI company pilots.

              The statement did not specify the faults. But pictures posted in social media showed that at least one aircraft had several parts of its airframe covered with waterproof cloth held on by adhesive tape.


              The aircraft are parked on the civilian airport apron at the Kuantan field, though a Royal Malaysian Air Force (RMAF) air base with hangars and aircraft shelters is also there.

              The aircraft were supposed to arrive at the RTAF’s Takhli base in Nakhon Sawan province, 240 km (144 mi.) northwest of Bangkok, on Jan. 12. They left South Korea on Jan. 8 for the 6,700 km flight with stopovers at Kaohsiung, Taiwan and the Philippines.

              Both were part of a four-aircraft order announced in 2015 for $110 million. The other two aircraft are due to be delivered in March.

              An additional eight T-50s worth $258 million were ordered in July 2017, with deliveries expected by 2020.
              T-50s will replace Thailand’s L-39 trainers, which will be decommissioned after 30 years of service.

              The RTAF operates about 35 L-39s, survivors of 40 ordered in the 1980s, in the lead-in fighter trainer role. The number of L-39s suggests more T-50 orders are possible.

              Although Thai T-50s will be used for training, they are fitted with radars and wired for weapons, providing the capabilities of the FA-50 light-attack version. Thailand is the third user of the T-50 in Southeast Asia, after Indonesia and the Philippines.
              Just a data point- approx $32.25 million USD for each aircraft, escalated acquisition cost for the second batch and the earlier ordered batch, cost $27.5 million USD each, acquisition cost.
              Last edited by BlackArcher; 16th January 2018, 19:36.

              Comment

              • EagleSpirit
                Rank 5 Registered User

                #8
                Originally posted by BlackArcher View Post
                KAI T-50s on delivery flight to RTAF, grounded with unspecified issues. Delivery to RTAF has been delayed indefinitely.



                Just a data point- approx $32.25 million USD for each aircraft, escalated acquisition cost for the second batch and the earlier ordered batch, cost $27.5 million USD each, acquisition cost.
                The rumour is that there is an engine issue on one T-50 and that KAI will just ship out a new replacement engine just to be on the safe side.

                Comment

                • Y-20 Bacon
                  Senior Member

                  #9
                  27-32 million is pretty good.
                  In many ways this is the ideal aircraft for Austria (the Central European power house).

                  They bought Typhoons, spent more money to dumb it down, so it can shoot sidewinders.

                  the Golden Eagle can do just that, has enough range for a small country like Austria, and also can shoot sidewinders..but at a much cheaper acquisition and operational cost.

                  Comment

                  • swerve
                    Rank 5 Registered User

                    #10
                    Gripens would allow Austria to share logistics & training with two neighbouring countries. There may be some spare A/Bs which could be rebuilt into updated (e.g. improved radar) C/Ds. What Austria should have bought instead of Typhoon, but modernised.
                    Juris praecepta sunt haec: honeste vivere, alterum non laedere, suum cuique tribuere.
                    Justinian

                    Comment

                    • BlackArcher
                      Rank 5 Registered User

                      #11


                      Head of the Royal Thai Air Force Air Chief Marshal Johm Rungswang told local reporters on Jan. 15 that two T50THs being delivered to Thailand will take another two more weeks to reach home.

                      The jets were on a ferry flight home when they encountered turbulent weather and diverted to Kuantan, Malaysia.

                      Post-flight checks revealed damage to the aircraft but it is unknown for now if the damage is on one or both aircraft.

                      Update: Bangkok Post is reporting that the engines on the aircraft were damaged.

                      Comment

                      • Y-20 Bacon
                        Senior Member

                        #12
                        is weather related damages to engines common?

                        Comment

                        • BlackArcher
                          Rank 5 Registered User

                          #13
                          Bad news for KAI. Looks very likely that Indonesia may withdraw from the KF-X program due to budgetary issues. Meanwhile, there are reports that Indonesia is looking at Western options for its next fighter jet, reportedly the F-16V and Typhoon at this time, with Rafale and Gripen E likely to join the fray. And 11 Su-35s about to be bought as well.

                          KUALA LUMPUR, SEOULBudgetary pressures could force Indonesian withdrawal from the Korea Aerospace Industries (KAI) KF-X fighter program, depriving it of funds and the endorsement of a second operator.

                          If Indonesia does not quit the KF-X entirely, it may take a smaller role.

                          Jakarta is behind in its monetary contributions. The finance ministry has refused to authorize a payment of $124.5 million due at the end of 2017 for the program, known in Indonesia as IF-X.

                          The issue is attracting a high-level response. The Republic of Korea Air Force said on Jan. 17 that its chief of staff, Gen. Lee Wang-kuen, had traveled to Jakarta in January to talk to the head of the Indonesian National Armed Forces, Air Chief Marshal Hadi Tjahjanto, about the program.

                          Indonesia will indeed pull out of its 20% share of the KF-X, says an Indonesian industry source who has spoken to government officials on the subject. And Evan A. Laksmana, a senior researcher at the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Jakarta, regards Indonesias continued participation as doubtful.

                          Indonesia, which has sent engineers to the program as well as earlier funding installments, reportedly had planned to buy 50 KF-Xs. South Koreas requirement is for 120. Development of the initial version is supposed to be complete in 2026.

                          Jakartas KF-X contributions are due twice a year, but the Indonesian parliament heard in October that the finance ministry had rejected the defense ministrys request for the next payment, of $124.5 million. The money still has not been paid, and the KF-X is not even in the 2018 defense budget.

                          Laksmana points out that Indonesias procurement budget is tight, only $1-2 billion annually, and the total allocation for the military in 2018 has fallen to $7.98 billion this year, from $8.17 billion in 2017. Yet the problem goes beyond money. The Indonesian Air Force is politically unpopular because of a corruption investigation resulting from an unauthorized acquisition of a Leonardo AW101 helicopter. The industry source and Laksmana both point to that issue as a factor.

                          South Korean industry officials are looking for a way to keep Indonesia in KF-X, South Korean sources say. One option must be to reduce the partners role and therefore their contribution. Seoul would have to pay more, but at least the program would keep the endorsement of a second operator. South Koreas parliament authorized the launch of the KF-X program in late 2015 on the understanding that KAI could export it, a challenging prospect for a new entrant in the combat aircraft market.

                          Even before Indonesias withdrawal became a serious risk, the KF-X already looked likely to exceed Seouls budget. Development of the twin-engine aircraft, with an empty weight of more than 11 metric tons (24,000 lb.), has a programmed cost of 8.7 trillion won ($8.1 billion); Indonesias share is 1.7 trillion won. But the total has been criticized in the South Korean parliament as improbably low.

                          Development of the Lockheed Martin F-35, an aircraft not much larger than the KF-X but somewhat more sophisticated and using a new engine, was estimated in December 2015 to cost $55.1 billion.

                          If Indonesia stays in the program it will presumably have to shoulder its share of cost overruns.

                          Withdrawal would yield funds for more immediate acquisitions. They could include a batch of Western fighters that Indonesia is negotiating for.

                          Comment

                          • stealthflanker
                            Rank 5 Registered User

                            #14
                            and the budgetary issue is not because we don't have the funds.. The MOD actually FORGET to arrange that.. as a result the MOD got reprimanded by Minister of finance.

                            Comment

                            • EagleSpirit
                              Rank 5 Registered User

                              #15
                              Originally posted by stealthflanker View Post
                              and the budgetary issue is not because we don't have the funds.. The MOD actually FORGET to arrange that.. as a result the MOD got reprimanded by Minister of finance.
                              How do you forget something like that? And how will the issue be fixed? Does this year's budget include the payment?

                              Comment

                              • Vans
                                Rank 5 Registered User

                                #16
                                I didn't know you are from Indonesia. can you tell me the logic behind Indonesia's acquisitions?
                                they buy a small amount of a variety of aircraft. seems like ea logistical nightmare

                                Comment

                                • JSR
                                  JSR
                                  Rank 5 Registered User

                                  #17
                                  this more look like loss of confidence. whats the point of developing medium size and medium tech fighter with moderate performance that enters in 2030s.

                                  Comment

                                  • TomcatViP
                                    Rank 5 Registered User

                                    #18
                                    A perfect opportunity for a third nation to jump in: low investment, maximum bargaining power, excellent perspective of RoI (think tech, knowledge and $).

                                    Comment

                                    • EagleSpirit
                                      Rank 5 Registered User

                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by TomcatViP View Post
                                      A perfect opportunity for a third nation to jump in: low investment, maximum bargaining power, excellent perspective of RoI (think tech, knowledge and $).
                                      Don't think there is anyone that would be willing other than Saudi Arabia or the UAE.

                                      Comment

                                      • stealthflanker
                                        Rank 5 Registered User

                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by Eagle Spirit
                                        How do you forget something like that? And how will the issue be fixed? Does this year's budget include the payment?
                                        Hopefully. The recent Korean president visit here likely also include rescheduling.

                                        Originally posted by Vans
                                        I didn't know you are from Indonesia. can you tell me the logic behind Indonesia's acquisitions?
                                        they buy a small amount of a variety of aircraft. seems like ea logistical nightmare
                                        It is actually start with simple terms "Don't put all of your eggs in one basket" We have been experienced arms embargo from both "west and east" block So our planners see it fit to "spread the risk" by having multiple types. Unfortunately tho this is not really supported in terms of financial or willingness.
                                        Western system like F-16 may enjoy better packages like having maintenance center here BUT Russian system may offer better performance, lower price and options to gain ability which western system does not provide (e.g supersonic anti ship missiles, true cross eye jammer in shape of Sorbitsya or SAP-518 and RVV-BD). The situation is made alot more severe by inter-service rivalry, unwillingness to actually integrate the Russian system into ours (Thus resulting with our flankers have to be heavy maintained outside our nation)

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