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Rafale 2018 Thread: Europe's best Eurocanard

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    Originally posted by Cream
    If the guys in charge in France have the balls they should do the same with the F-35, they have so much more to lose than us
    Err.. no. Its quite the other way round. According to this article, in 2016, France's defence exports to the US ranged around $1-2 bn while US defence exports to France were worth $350 mil.

    with a program which will already be seen in the next coming years as one of the most laughable in aviation history...
    I imagine that's a cathartic thought, as its order book and customer base continue to grow, now possibly extending to India & UAE.
    Last edited by Vnomad; 22nd February 2018, 22:10.

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      Sorry cream, but its not about the US trying to block Rafale sales. I think more than a few people on here (and governments) would see throwing in cruise missiles (in violation of a treaty France signed, and was renegotiated after previous issues with Scalp/Storm shadow sales to Gulf states), as irresponsible.

      If its that hard to get a customer to commit to your product that youre introducing weapon systems previous sellers refused, maybe thats a problem in and of itself. Perhaps Dassault shouldnt have been so desperate to find an export customer that they pushed the gov to include a dangerously irresponsible weapons package to get said contract. Hell, look at what AAM Egypt had before the Rafale deal on their F-16s.

      And before you comment on Hypocrisy... look within. I can think of three + reasons the USN and RN wouldnt be thrilled with the prospect of France selling guided missiles to another unstable nation.

      Addition-couldnt be happier that the US is trying to block the Scalp to Egypt. The military is struggling to control IS and other factions in country. Could go either way.
      Last edited by FBW; 22nd February 2018, 21:38.

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        On the other hand, after all the shootings in their soil, Trump try to sell US guns all over the world...

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          in violation of a treaty France signed, and was renegotiated after previous issues with Scalp/Storm shadow sales to Gulf states
          What treaty would that be?

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            MTCR- while voluntary and up to the export nation to evaluate uses of exported delivery systems, a sale to a state like Egypt would be exactly the type missile tech transfer the treaty was meant to prevent.

            Yes SCALP is a cat I. UK and France like to quote range as under 300km. That is in a low level flight profile. The treaty to renegotiated after the Black Shaheen sale to be average range. UK sale of storm shadow to Saudis could be seen as an exemption as Black Shaheen sale had been allowed in region.

            While Im sure we can argue true range figures and aspects of MTCR all day;
            It really comes down to best practices, should Egypt have an advanced cruise missile?

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              Err.. no. Its quite the other way round. According to this article, in 2016, France's defence exports to the US ranged around $1-2 bn while US defence exports to France were worth $350 mil.
              Trying to advance a well reasoned argument to someone who wants to do it " just for the laught"
              Old radar types never die; they just phased array

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                MTCR
                MTCR is not a treaty, never was, never will be.

                should Egypt have an advanced cruise missile?
                You mean, like the AGM-84 harpoon on their Type 209 submarines? Yes, the range is lower, it's just enough to hit any point in Lybia or Israel from the sea. Or the SLAM-ER to be installed in their new corvettes (ok, their range is "only" 240km)?

                As for why Egypt would need cruise missile, well, one of their neighbor is an unstable mess and the other has attacked them twice in the last 60 years. Can't blame them for wanting a credible deterrence force in case someone in the region tries to bully them.

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                  Originally posted by FBW
                  Yes SCALP is a cat I.
                  No, it is a cat II.

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                    Or the SLAM-ER to be installed in their new corvettes (ok, their range is "only" 240km)?
                    SLAM-ER on a corvette?
                    Thats new, the thing is suposed to be an Air launched weapon... No trace of a sale to Egypt of SLAM-ER in the Foreign Military Sales sie.
                    sigpic

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                      Sorry cream, but it’s not about the US trying to block Rafale sales. I think more than a few people on here (and governments) would see throwing in cruise missiles (in violation of a treaty France signed, and was renegotiated after previous issues with Scalp/Storm shadow sales to Gulf states), as irresponsible.
                      ROFL

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                        Did you take 1 single minute to think and read a tiny little bit about MTCR before scolding such sillyness?
                        Last edited by halloweene; 24th February 2018, 21:39.

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                          Originally posted by halloweene View Post
                          Did you take 1 single minute to think and read a tiny little bit about MTCR before scolding such sillyness?
                          Yeah,, did you before your crap post about US interference? No, i’m sure the Black Shaheen missile came about because there were no concerns about MTCR and how proliferating long range cruise missiles looked.

                          Loooovvvveee the double standard. How irresponsible the US is compared to France: “what what? Ageement not to export cruise missiles? Nah, SCALP only goes 299km with a 450kg payload!” I mean Egypt has been super stable lately, what could go wrong?

                          I’ve heard hypocrisy goes well with Bordeaux .(ed-sp)
                          Last edited by FBW; 25th February 2018, 02:20.

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                            SCALP is formally rated at 250km by MBDA but a quick analysis of size suggests that's beyond very conservative and most likely a lie to bypass the MTCR.

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                              SCALP is formally rated at 250km by MBDA but a quick analysis of size suggests that's beyond very conservative and most likely a lie to bypass the MTCR.
                              Stop the BS. The export version is limited to 250 Km. No need to lie.
                              The Rafale international forum :
                              http://rafale.freeforums.org/

                              Rafale news blog :
                              http://rafalenews.blogspot.com/

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by Kovy View Post
                                Stop the BS. The export version is limited to 250 Km. No need to lie.
                                Even the Black Shaheen is credited with a longer distance. Exactly where does it state an export version has a 250km range (or are you basically talking about the Black Shaheen). If so, nowhere does it state that is the version Egypt is getting. It states SCALP EG. willing to believe the defense reporting was incorrect. Really doesnt change the fact that the 250km Black Shaheen quoted range is BS. Which is why after last sale US-France-UK discussed an average range, not low- low flight profile for compliant export missiles.

                                P.S. have to love how several posters are sticking to MBDA quoted range fully aware they are B.S. And play dumb like this issue never came up before (UAE, ahem). Not to mention fully knowing that the reasons MBDA understates the range of both the SCALP and Black Shaheen is to make a half hearted attempt to look like they arent exporting a weapon class voluntary signatories of MTCR attempt to limit.

                                How many articles and studies would our friends defending this weapon export deal like to refresh their memory from the last time this was an issue? May be embarrassing to those who want to claim this is over US wanting to prevent Rafale sales, IMHO.

                                Apologize for off topic on Rafale thread. But done with Halloweene pulling out the US boogeyman, and playing fast and loose with information constantly.
                                Last edited by FBW; 25th February 2018, 15:36.

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                                  Look even if the Scalp's range was 1000km, selling it to Egypt would be like a drop in the ocean of clusterfnebs from the various US administrations wrt to security in the middle east.

                                  So you may ride your high horse in another thread thank you very much.

                                  Nic

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                                    http://stargazer2006.online.fr/unman...ges/scarab.htm

                                    >2000km range launched from the ground with a >100kg payload, US-built, in Egyptian service for 30 years.

                                    http://stargazer2006.online.fr/unman...es/scarab2.htm

                                    How is selling SCALP going to cause problems that are not already extant? I can see why one might suspect ulterior motives, to be frank.
                                    Last edited by Trident; 26th February 2018, 01:55.
                                    sigpic

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                                      the "only" problem today is that once sold, the US don't have the keys to decide when and on whom Egypt can use it

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                                        MTCR says 500 Kgs payload. coma. Rest is pointless, specially to shout crap such as France betrayed etc. Nothin to do with MTCR. The problem is due to retroactivity of itar regulations (irrrespnsible move).

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                                          Even the Black Shaheen is credited with a longer distance. Exactly where does it state an export version has a 250km range (or are you basically talking about the Black Shaheen). If so, nowhere does it state that is the version Egypt is getting. It states SCALP EG. willing to believe the defense reporting was incorrect. Really doesn’t change the fact that the 250km Black Shaheen quoted range is BS. Which is why after last sale US-France-UK discussed an average range, not low- low flight profile for compliant export missiles.
                                          Black Shaheen is just a pretty name the UAE give to their Scalp-EG. The fact that it is exported means - by definition - that it is an export version of the SCALP-EG and thereforfore it must respect the MTCR terms.
                                          Now, it is you who are asserting that France will not respect the MTCR terms with the Scalp-EG version proposed to Egypt. This is just your opinion.
                                          Last edited by Kovy; 26th February 2018, 22:25.
                                          The Rafale international forum :
                                          http://rafale.freeforums.org/

                                          Rafale news blog :
                                          http://rafalenews.blogspot.com/

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