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Rafale 2018 Thread: Europe's best Eurocanard

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  • Siddar
    Rank 5 Registered User
    • Feb 2013
    • 263

    Ah the French complaining about the limits of globalism. What do you mean we cant export missiles with american components in that not fair!

    Comment

    • St. John
      Rank 4 Registered User
      • Jan 2018
      • 568

      In fairness ITAR is beyond a joke. You have guys at the US end who don't really know what should and shouldn't be labelled ITAR, so they play it safe and consequently you end up with fire extinguisher brackets labelled as ITAR. No joke, the Nimrod MRA4 had fire extinguisher brackets in the ITAR database and a whole load of other miscellaneous crap that wasn't remotely cutting edge, or a matter of military security, or even military really.

      Comment

      • halloweene
        Rank 5 Registered User
        • Jan 2012
        • 4301

        Ah the French complaining about the limits of globalism. What do you mean we cant export missiles with american components in that not fair!
        Well you are exporting mlanes with french components aren't you? Apart from that, anything to bring to the debate?

        Comment

        • Tony
          Rank 5 Registered User
          • Jan 2000
          • 546

          Originally posted by J-20
          ….its really all about picking which export is the lesser evil for you

          US - tight controls over spares/upgrades/stock
          French - more flexible but will charge you twice as much as the Americans. Unless your enemy has more money
          Swedes/Germans - you must follow their human rights philosophies or no spares
          Russians - no spares to give, no cares to give,
          Chinese - spares made in China
          J-20 sometimes I think your original and twisted sense of humour flies over many peoples' head!

          Pretty pretty close to the bone....with just some truth....anyway made me smile ;-)
          Last edited by Tony; 19th February 2018, 18:33.
          Stand up for what you believe in even if you are standing alone...Sophie Scholl (9 May 1921 - 22 February 1943)

          Comment

          • Siddar
            Rank 5 Registered User
            • Feb 2013
            • 263

            To elaborate on my original response and to illustrate why I was so dismissive of french position.

            They knew from the time they designed those missiles with US components. That they would have to get US approval to export them. They chose to use those components anyway. Now their upset that something they knew was going to happen has happened. It was entirely predictable that US was not going to allow export to the middle east.

            If France wants to have clear ability to sale arms exports, then it shouldn't use US parts. There is cost to that choice both in weapon system cost and time to duplicate whatever US component are required. Then you have secondary effects of taking those french resources away from other things to duplicate US components. And then the long term the drifting apart of the US and France on defense cooperation caused by refusal to use US sourced components. Lastly you have the potential loss of french exports to US that such a policy would inevitably result in as US returned the favor.

            All of those things were very much considered when France designed that missile. Now they find what they knew going into it. That exporting said missiles to the middle east was going to be a non starter for US. So they sit and bitch about it even though they knew all along it was likely outcome.

            Comment

            • xena
              Rank 5 Registered User
              • Nov 2012
              • 140

              Not all parts are affected by US arms control. With a wise selection of US components you can make both, fine deals with the USA and still sell your weapons all over the world.

              Comment

              • J-20
                Rank 4 Registered User
                • Jan 2018
                • 138

                You're welcome Tony!

                As for Siddar's remarks,

                he is probably referring to US blocking SCALP sale to Egypt. it was mentioned in the news thread.

                I was surprised since I thought it was an entirely European missile but I guess it has some US components.
                The question now is, will Russia sell them the Russian equivalent for use on their MiG-35s

                Comment

                • Blue Apple
                  Rank 5 Registered User
                  • Feb 2009
                  • 393

                  To elaborate on my original response and to illustrate why I was so dismissive of french position.

                  They knew from the time they designed those missiles with US components.
                  That's far from obvious.

                  Without any detail on the component in question, there are several scenarios where a component that was ITAR-free can suddenly become subject to US regulations. For example, the company making it might have been bought by a US one. Another possibility is that the US government might have decided to reclassify the component as dual-use.

                  Comment

                  • halloweene
                    Rank 5 Registered User
                    • Jan 2012
                    • 4301

                    @Siddar I understand your point, but.
                    Obama changed the rules setting ITAR regulations as retroactive (afaik) . Second point : some GPS stuff is now classed in items cat. XII since 2016. ITAR rules change.

                    Comment

                    • MSphere
                      Senior Member
                      • Feb 2010
                      • 8983

                      Expect some massive changes here..

                      https://www.reuters.com/article/us-u...-idUSKCN1BU2N8
                      https://www.politico.com/story/2017/...s-sales-243282

                      Comment

                      • swerve
                        Rank 5 Registered User
                        • Jun 2005
                        • 13610

                        Siddar:
                        It was entirely predictable that US was not going to allow export to the middle east.
                        Why? It's already been exported to the Middle East.

                        France sold a variant of SCALP (Black Shaheen) to the UAE after the USA refused to sell JASSM. The UK's exported the British version, Storm Shadow, to Saudi Arabia.
                        Juris praecepta sunt haec: honeste vivere, alterum non laedere, suum cuique tribuere.
                        Justinian

                        Comment

                        • swerve
                          Rank 5 Registered User
                          • Jun 2005
                          • 13610

                          Blue Apple:
                          Without any detail on the component in question, there are several scenarios where a component that was ITAR-free can suddenly become subject to US regulations. For example, the company making it might have been bought by a US one.
                          So, if something entirely French (or British/German/Italian/Swedish/whatever) designed, financed & made is produced by a firm which is bought by a company based in the USA, it somehow, miraculously, becomes American? Really? In that case, the British, French, German etc. governments can ban the export of huge numbers of US-made weapons on a whim. The SDB, for example, since the manufacturer of the wing is owned by a company based in France.
                          Juris praecepta sunt haec: honeste vivere, alterum non laedere, suum cuique tribuere.
                          Justinian

                          Comment

                          • halloweene
                            Rank 5 Registered User
                            • Jan 2012
                            • 4301

                            So, if something entirely French (or British/German/Italian/Swedish/whatever) designed, financed & made is produced by a firm which is bought by a company based in the USA, it somehow, miraculously, becomes American? Really? In that case, the British, French, German etc. governments can ban the export of huge numbers of US-made weapons on a whim. The SDB, for example, since the manufacturer of the wing is owned by a company based in France.
                            Or the F-35... (tyres, batteries, parts of obogs, much wiring etc.)

                            Comment

                            • bring_it_on
                              2005-year of the RAPTOR!!
                              • Jun 2004
                              • 12480

                              Foreign countries can most definitely begin asserting greater regulation on their products that end up on US systems. As a reaction, this will likely lead to a very selective use of foreign components in US weapons which will have industrial repercussions for industrial partners involved on these efforts both on loosing out on future contracts for the systems they are already suppliers to but also for securing work on future systems. If this is done systemically, it would essentially push a lot of suppliers out of what is now a > $144 Billion a year market (US DOD Procurement budget ( more if you add FMS)). This could also impact acquisitions when companies based in Europe (Britain and Sweden for example) buy US defense or A&D suppliers to get a foothold in the market.
                              Last edited by bring_it_on; 21st February 2018, 13:23.
                              Old radar types never die; they just phased array

                              Comment

                              • halloweene
                                Rank 5 Registered User
                                • Jan 2012
                                • 4301

                                Foreign countries can most definitely begin asserting greater regulation on their products that end up on US systems. As a reaction, this will likely lead to a very selective use of foreign components in US weapons which will have industrial repercussions for industrial partners involved on these efforts both on loosing out on future contracts for the systems they are already suppliers to but also for securing work on future systems. If this is done systemically, it would essentially push a lot of suppliers out of what is now a > $144 Billion a year market (US DOD Procurement budget ( more if you add FMS)). This could also impact acquisitions when companies based in Europe (Britain and Sweden for example) buy US defense or A&D suppliers to get a foothold in the market.
                                Thumbs up.

                                Comment

                                • Blue Apple
                                  Rank 5 Registered User
                                  • Feb 2009
                                  • 393

                                  So, if something entirely French (or British/German/Italian/Swedish/whatever) designed, financed & made is produced by a firm which is bought by a company based in the USA, it somehow, miraculously, becomes American? Really?
                                  Yes, really. The US is quite unique in asserting extraterritoriality in a number of domains (e.g. US citizens working abroad are still subject to IRS taxation on the money they earn even if they haven't been in the USA for years).

                                  To give an example of how crazy ITAR regulations are, there was a time where Microsoft Windows was under ITAR restrictions. That meant that if a London shop had Windows boxes for sale on its shelves and that, says, a Pakistani national happened to pick it up, the store owners was now in violation of US law and could be imprisoned if he set foot in the US...

                                  In that case, the British, French, German etc. governments can ban the export of huge numbers of US-made weapons on a whim.
                                  None of these countries assert the same extraterritoriality as the USA. The USA is the proverbial 500-pound gorillas that does as it pleases, twisting the arms of everyone. This is not a two-way street, if any country tries to do what the US does, they quickly get bashed by US retaliations till they stop and beg for forgiveness.

                                  Comment

                                  • halloweene
                                    Rank 5 Registered User
                                    • Jan 2012
                                    • 4301

                                    TBH Blue Apple, France just didand Europe is elaborating extraterritoriality rules also as retaliation.

                                    Comment

                                    • Cream
                                      Rank 5 Registered User
                                      • Feb 2011
                                      • 249

                                      It's so funny, they found a US part on a cruise missile and they try to block the sale but on the other hand it prove that they try whatever they can to block the Rafale sales, i wonder why since it's only a 4 gen figther from the 80s who is even inferior of the others 4.5 gen, more expensive and he can only use french weapons (which like everyone knows are vastely more expensive than the US ones and so much less efficiant...).

                                      For me that confirm the choice of France to build an entire fighter with french parts and the France's doctrine to be entirely independent of the USA with her defence (nuclear, aviation..).
                                      Last edited by Cream; 22nd February 2018, 19:07.

                                      Comment

                                      • SpudmanWP
                                        Rank 5 Registered User
                                        • Jan 2009
                                        • 5266

                                        Blocking the missile on the basis of ITAR would not stop the sale unless the customer demanded they be bought together.
                                        "The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."

                                        Comment

                                        • Cream
                                          Rank 5 Registered User
                                          • Feb 2011
                                          • 249

                                          None of these countries assert the same extraterritoriality as the USA. The USA is the proverbial 500-pound gorillas that does as it pleases, twisting the arms of everyone. This is not a two-way street, if any country tries to do what the US does, they quickly get bashed by US retaliations till they stop and beg for forgiveness.
                                          If the guys in charge in France have the balls they should do the same with the F-35, they have so much more to lose than us, It would be so bad and so funny (maybe 4/5 more years of development to substitute the french parts and how much billions ? ) with a program which will already be seen in the next coming years as one of the most laughable in aviation history...
                                          Of course they'll find a way to f**k us (maybe remove all Mc Donalds in France because of ITAR or rename french wine the freedom wine ? ) but just for the laught if it was me i go for it.

                                          Of course i know that would be worst than that, but honnestely.. Just for the fun it would worth it.
                                          Last edited by Cream; 22nd February 2018, 19:56.

                                          Comment

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