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  • garryA
    Rank 5 Registered User
    • Dec 2015
    • 1120

    Originally posted by ThincanKiller View Post

    You're so full of it you still can't read plain English. ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZ...

    NOPE. 110% was the maximum AoA, the aircraft departed FAR earlier than that, but since you still can't comprehend the meaning of the words you copy/paste, we still have to suffer B.S by the bucket.
    Yes, with a tweak in FCS and intentional control, F-35 can be put into a spin before 110deg, so what?.
    I love how you keep claim that i don't understand the words while it is you who was shown to be wrong and have to change your claims over and over.



    Originally posted by Thincankiller
    Stop writing in Aviation forums, take on knitting
    Well i am not the one who made up idiotic claims then get shut down by test report and flight manual pages.
    Last edited by garryA; 3rd March 2019, 18:44.

    Comment

    • ThincanKiller
      Registered User
      • Feb 2019
      • 91

      The reasons why are explained in many aerodynamic topics, one i already posted, some others can be found (or not) on line.

      Originally posted by garryA View Post
      Yes, with a tweak in FCS and intentional control, F-35 can be put into a spin before 110deg, so what?.
      I love how you keep claim that i don't understand the words while it is you who was shown to be wrong and have to change your claims over and over.




      Well i am not the one who made up idiotic claims then get shut down by test report and flight manual pages.

      It's not "claims", boy, it's BASICS aerodynamics you never bothered to learn.

      I'm not into this "mine's bigger" syndrome of yours, I can comprehend what is actually written simply because I have learned the basics and much of the more advanced stuff, not to mention had it demonstrated as a student in flying schools, thus I can easily tell who knows what and it becomes clear to me that the most basic stuff already eludes you big time.

      110* AoA isn't exceptional for a modern fighter and completely unnecessary to reach for spin tests since your most efficient angle for those tests will be in theory closer to 90*, but all you need is to reach an AoA where your A-C departs and it's way earlier in the AoA scale, what AoA does a SU-37 reach when performing a Kulbit again?

      Dryden conducted tests both in wind and oil tunnels, RC and piloted testing with most of the fighters in service with the USAF today, I read most of the reports available at the time (you didn't and can't find them online anymore) and they advised on recovery procedures and eventually redesign of prototypes (as in the case of YF-22) for those as well as exploring their full combat flight envelop, so I reiterate just in case you misunderstood first or 12th time:

      To pass those tests, you need the sort of control authority that the F-35 has, in 3 axis, some have more than others and papers written by NASA, Dryden engineers and SAAB chief designer both quote the delta-canard formula as having the qualities I mentioned, only Dassault, IAI didn't disclose data, you don't know it, I do, I can't help it if you chose to keep yourself in this dark zone of ignorance of those flight mechanics principles, and this is no "claims", this is aerodynamics and physics.

      If you can't figure out what does what and when, what vortexes are, what vortex lift is, what is boundary layer, what vortexes does do to boundary layers, why vortex breakdown means lower control authority, then there is no point writing about a comparison between a conventional design and a close-coupled canard, since you can't tell the difference between the two when it comes to control authority at high angle of attack and F-18/F-22/F-35 all have control authority issues due to vortex breakdown to some degree a close-coupled canard doesn't know.

      Now you haven't managed to shown me "to be wrong and have to change my claims over and over", since I keep repeating the same thing again and again, the only thing I didn't pick up on was the fact that F-35 did pass 110* AoA, though, it still is 30*/sec slower in the yaw axis Post Stall than Gripen and this is rather relevant when it comes to the so-called PSM designed to face a threat, it demonstrates two things, you don't need TVC and a close-coupled canard can maneuver more efficiently than a conventional design.

      The only reason why US A-C doesn't use this formula is VLO.


      B. CLOSE-COUPLED CANARD
      The advantages of a close-coupled canard have been known since the 1960s.

      It was found by Behrbohm [Ref . 1] that the combination of a close-coupled canard and delta wing, of small aspect ratios, has significant advantages over a conventional delta-wing or wing/horizontal-tail configured aircraft.

      Both CLmax and the angle of attack for CLmax are increased by the addition of a delta-canard to a delta-wing.

      NAVAL POSTGRADUATE SCHOOL Monterey, Califormna

      THESIS..........-
      FLO WFIELD STUDY OF A CLOSE-COUPLED CANARD CONFIGURATION by John F. O'Leary

      June, 1992


      Canard effect

      The canard produces two additional vortices which combine with the vortices on the delta wing. This gives an extension of controlled airflow up to a higher AoA and an unshielded fin and rudder.

      FLIGHT INTERNATIONAL, 14 December 1985
      a paper by test pilot Walter Spychiger of the Swiss Defence Technology and Procurement Agency
      So much for "undocumented B.S", it's been up since the mid-80s and studied from the 60s.



      Last edited by ThincanKiller; 3rd March 2019, 20:55.

      Comment

      • TomcatViP
        Rank 5 Registered User
        • Nov 2011
        • 6111

        You know in 1940 they too had hard belief about elliptical wing, the impossibility to go through the sonic wall or the ineptitude of having women pilots... Take a deep breath man and take one step forward into the future... with all of us yawning that you end-up reaching the point. Because your diatribe is a pain to watch. Scientifically and as an educated individual able to share serenely around different opinions.

        Canards expectations are old vented cliche. Sorry dude.
        Last edited by TomcatViP; 3rd March 2019, 21:34.

        Comment

        • ThincanKiller
          Registered User
          • Feb 2019
          • 91

          Originally posted by TomcatViP View Post
          You know in 1940 they too had hard belief about elliptical wing, the impossibility to go through the sonic wall or the ineptitude of having women pilots... Take a deep breath man and take one step forward into the future... with all of us yawning that you end-up reaching the point. Because your diatribe is a pain to watch. Scientifically and as an educated individual able to share serenely around different opinions.

          Canards expectations are old vented cliche. Sorry dude.
          You should be sorry for yourself, considering the amount of documentation you missed while coming up with a loudmouth lecturing everyone else, I mean who wrote the most about it? Damned right NASA/DRYDEN, US most advanced agencies with a few prototypes to make sure they got it right, your bunch don't even know F-16/18/22/35, and you care to give opinions on rafale?

          Perhaps it's time for you to send them a job application, hang on, i'm sure they don't need it, you already have a proposal for a floor runner position on its way to your local post office.

          Look at the amount of B.S you two managed to write and going on with comparison with 1940 design, ignoring well documented aerodynamic issues encountered by the very A-Cs you try to oppose to them on forum, sorry to say mate but the world of aerodynamics have changed since 1940 as you said, but L-M designed F-35 using a Dassault-system package while still managing to overshoot their weight targets by a fair margin and lose a few vortexes to low pressure they didn't figure at design stage. I'm so impressed.

          As John Boyd once said, "I could f%^k up and do better", and modest too; "as an educated individual able to share serenely around different opinions."?

          Like one should care about your opinion, we have tons better and it's not a matter of opinion, let alone pretending to serenely share some, before sharing any, you need to formate it on something else than yawning instead of learning, at least people who studied the subject can and you visibly haven't.

          Keep yawning, that's precisely what makes your bunch ignorants and us amused at your trolling of every single Rafale topic. Too, too funny.

          PSM? Gripen 90*/sec yaw rotation rate, F-35 60*/sec. Enuff said.
          Last edited by ThincanKiller; 3rd March 2019, 22:44.

          Comment

          • TomcatViP
            Rank 5 Registered User
            • Nov 2011
            • 6111

            Perhaps it's time for you to send them a job application, hang on, i'm sure they don't need it, you already have a proposal for a floor runner position on its way to your local post office.
            You definitively have a problem with the human race. In due respect to my Cat alias, I won't bark with you Zarathurista

            Comment

            • ThincanKiller
              Registered User
              • Feb 2019
              • 91



              Originally posted by TomcatViP View Post
              You definitively have a problem with the human race. In due respect to my Cat alias, I won't bark with you Zarathurista
              Like you two spamming stuff you don't even start to comprehend in unrelated topics or going personal? Is that the kind of problem you were thinking of?

              Nah, I don't even have a problem with US aircraft manufacturers, at least I understand the reason behind their choices and I don't feel the need to troll their A-Cs topics as your bunch does...

              I haven't bothered reading the topics where you "specialists" were writing and giving your opinions, since you know better than the most advanced guys in the business anyway even if you don't pick up on the most basic stuff they write about (like low pressure, vortex breakdown, loss of control), but I understand why you come up with 1940 technology and your pet, it makes perfect sense.

              Anyway, it must be disappointing for you to figure that not everyone will fall for your pretention, as I said, when I need an "opinion", I know where to ask and it's not in forums, trust me on this one.
              Last edited by ThincanKiller; 3rd March 2019, 23:14.

              Comment

              • TomcatViP
                Rank 5 Registered User
                • Nov 2011
                • 6111

                No.You was the one jumping to the jugular, insulting half the forum since the week you started posting. Don't victimize yourself.

                Comment

                • ThincanKiller
                  Registered User
                  • Feb 2019
                  • 91

                  Originally posted by TomcatViP View Post
                  No.You was the one jumping to the jugular, insulting half the forum since the week you started posting. Don't victimize yourself.
                  Sorry? Insulting? SHOW us please a quote of me "insulting half the forum".

                  You really think much too highly of yourself, first, it is no insult to point out that you have no clue what you write about, and sure thing, when it comes to the whole subject you really have no clue, not you, not your pal.

                  Second, you're far from being "half the forum" and this topic is not mine, why would I feel victimized?

                  Third, I don't feel victimized at all, quite the opposite, considering what your pal and your self keep writing I feel a lot more confident I demonstrated my points, bring up more yawning and pets, and I certainly don't need to insult anyone.

                  I'll leave you to your trolling, your paranoia and your cat, have a good day...



                  are old vented cliche
                  Yep, vortex aerodynamics... Reason for F-22 and F-35 to be equipped with strakes. ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ...
                  Last edited by ThincanKiller; 3rd March 2019, 23:37.

                  Comment

                  • garryA
                    Rank 5 Registered User
                    • Dec 2015
                    • 1120

                    Originally posted by ThincanKiller View Post
                    It's not "claims", boy, it's BASICS aerodynamics you never bothered to learn.
                    Yep, your so called "basic aerodynamic knowledge" when you think fighter sustained G is greater then 9G at Mach 0.8, 15k ft or spin departure equal combat post stall maneuver, i am sure never bothered to learn that kind of baSiC AerOdYnaMic


                    Originally posted by ThincanKiller View Post
                    I can comprehend what is actually written simply because I have learned the basics and much of the more advanced stuff, not to mention had it demonstrated as a student in flying schools, thus I can easily tell who knows what and it becomes clear to me that the most basic stuff already eludes you big time. I do, I can't help it if you chose to keep yourself in this dark zone of ignorance of those flight mechanics principles, and this is no "claims", this is aerodynamics and physics.
                    If you really learned much more advanced aerodynamic stuff than any of us, i am sure you can solve this aerodynamic math problems easy:
                    Prove to us you aren't just an armchair expert then.
                    Click image for larger version  Name:	lecture 25 David.PNG Views:	0 Size:	21.3 KB ID:	3854318

                    Originally posted by ThincanKiller View Post
                    110* AoA isn't exceptional for a modern fighter and completely unnecessary to reach for spin tests since your most efficient angle for those tests will be in theory closer to 90*
                    whatever your pet fighter has done must be the most efficient, every other way is complete trash. I understand your thought


                    Originally posted by ThincanKiller View Post
                    Now you haven't managed to shown me "to be wrong and have to change my claims over and over", since I keep repeating the same thing again and again
                    Let have a quick recall shall we
                    1- you claimed no US fighter had been tested anywhere close to 100 degrees AoA=> turn out F-35 had been tested to 110 deg, same for F-22 , even F-14, F-15, F-16 all had been push to 90-100 degrees AoA in their test, this say a lot about your knowledge of spin departure test
                    2-you claimed that F-35 rivets will all fly out long before the pilot pull 10G=> turn out ,it had been flown to 9.9G
                    3-you claimed operational G load is directly proportional to ultimate structure limit, sustained or instantaneous aren't important => turn out, it clearly isn't , i showed you and example that F-16 with higher ultimate structure limit can have lower sustained G limit than F-15 and also the fact that fighter can't sustain anywhere near 9G when they fly at 10.000 feet or higher. As a bonus, i showed you that pulling higher G doesn't neccesary translate to a higher turn rate unless both turn are performed at the same velocity, but you choose to ignore that.
                    4-you claimed F-16 pilot just let go off the stick and the aircraft will recover => turn out he recover from the spin by rudder input
                    5-you claimed F-35 KPP specs change is the evident that its structure get weakened => turn out you were hilariously wrong, the Sustain G spec at that altitude is no where even near 9G
                    6- You claimed Gripen test is a post stall manuever test while F-16 test was a spin departure test=> turn out, they are both spin recovery test, it is even mentioned in the test report how the anti spin logic and the recovery control law of Gripen operate, there is not even a single word in the test report mentioning that the spin departure can be used in combat.
                    7- You brag about how Gripen spin rate can reach - recover from 60 degrees/seconds spin rate in its spin departure-recovery test => turn out, it is quite usual thing, F-16 spin rate even reach 120 degrees/second in spin departure test.
                    8-You claimed that F-35 can't perform any post stall maneuver and it was only tested for spin departure recovery=> turn out, not only i can post multiple video of F-35 perform post stall maneuver in a fully controlled manner, but also the comment of pilots talking about how he used the pedal turn in dogfight exercise and then the test report of Lockheed Martin clearly stated that F-35 can perform post stall maneuver in combat like its brother F-22
                    9- You claimed Gripen has extremely good high AoA nose control that why its FCS does not limit the aircraft to 26 AoA like F-16 => turn out, the flight control test report also show Gripen recover system will automatically engage after AoA of 26 deg
                    10-You claimed that Post stall maneuver is useless, and all other airforces limit their fighters AoA to maximum of 30 degrees => turn out you are missing out on F-18E/F, F-35A/B/C, Su-30 MKK, Su-30MKI, Su-35S, Mig-35, F-22, Su-57, FGFA


                    Originally posted by ThincanKiller View Post
                    it still is 30*/sec slower in the yaw axis Post Stall than Gripen and this is rather relevant when it comes to the so-called PSM designed to face a threat, it demonstrates two things, you don't need TVC and a close-coupled canard can maneuver more efficiently than a conventional design PSM? Gripen 90*/sec yaw rotation rate, F-35 60*/sec. Enuff said.
                    Again, you try to blur the line between Post stall maneuver and a spin departure test
                    FYI, F-16, f-18 reached and recover from 100-120*/sec yaw rotation rate in these kinds of test.




                    Originally posted by ThincanKiller View Post
                    So much for "undocumented B.S", it's been up since the mid-80s and studied from the 60s.
                    B. CLOSE-COUPLED CANARD
                    The advantages of a close-coupled canard have been known since the 1960s.

                    It was found by Behrbohm [Ref . 1] that the combination of a close-coupled canard and delta wing, of small aspect ratios, has significant advantages over a conventional delta-wing or wing/horizontal-tail configured aircraft.

                    Both CLmax and the angle of attack for CLmax are increased by the addition of a delta-canard to a delta-wing.

                    NAVAL POSTGRADUATE SCHOOL Monterey, Califormna

                    THESIS..........-
                    FLO WFIELD STUDY OF A CLOSE-COUPLED CANARD CONFIGURATION by John F. O'Leary
                    As expected from a disingenuous person, you skip out the vital part of that study
                    The comparison was against positive stable conventional wing-tail aircraft. Not to mention that F-4 also lack vortex generation device such as LERX or chines.
                    So, exactly like i said, you cherry pick a small part of information to make your case, while ignoring all relevant parameter that influences the result.

                    Click image for larger version  Name:	canard.PNG Views:	0 Size:	208.0 KB ID:	3854317
                    Last edited by garryA; 4th March 2019, 10:18.

                    Comment

                    • ThincanKiller
                      Registered User
                      • Feb 2019
                      • 91

                      Originally posted by garryA View Post
                      Yep, your so called "basic aerodynamic knowledge" when you think fighter sustained G is greater then 9G at Mach 0.8, 15k ft or spin departure equal combat post stall maneuver, i am sure never bothered to learn that kind of baSiC AerOdYnaMic
                      Blah.

                      The more you post the funnier you sound... For one thing, you should start by buying an Oxford dictionary and open it at the pages maneuver and Psychological projection.

                      I reiterate. Gripen departure in yaw spin was a full scaled PSM becaused the A-C was put into it by stalling dynamically, even at low speed, demonstrating pitch control at those low speed, with increased AoA up to 70/80*, controled in both acceleration/deceleration and stop to the yaw rotation before full recovery with full 3 axis controly ahthority throughout the entire length of the maneuver.


                      Gripen 90*/sec, F-35 60*/sec.

                      Now, after your pal posted the Rafale M pilot interview, what we've learned (we knew it but it was confirmed then) was some of the A-C limits.



                      Rafale M1.4 supercruise, 11.0g.




                      About Close-coupled canards.

                      B. CLOSE-COUPLED CANARD
                      The advantages of a close-coupled canard have been known since the 1960s.
                      It was found by Behrbohm [Ref . 1] that the combination of a close-coupled canard and delta wing, of small aspect ratios, has significant advantages over a conventional delta-wing or wing/horizontal-tail configured aircraft.
                      Both CLmax and the angle of attack for CLmax are increased by the addition of a delta-canard to a delta-wing.
                      NAVAL POSTGRADUATE SCHOOL Monterey, Califormna
                      THESIS..........-
                      FLO WFIELD STUDY OF A CLOSE-COUPLED CANARD CONFIGURATION by John F. O'Leary
                      June, 1992








                      Canard effect
                      The canard produces two additional vortices which combine with the vortices on the delta wing. This gives an extension of controlled airflow up to a higher AoA and





                      an unshielded fin and rudder
                      .
                      FLIGHT INTERNATIONAL, 14 December 1985
                      a paper by test pilot Walter Spychiger of the Swiss Defence Technology and Procurement Agency





                      Now a couple of simple questions for you newbie:

                      No LEX on a F4 did you say? So how come F-18/22/35 all experience vortex breakdwon at lower AoA than a close-coupled canard then?

                      Click image for larger version  Name:	309920main-EC89-0096-226-full.jpg Views:	0 Size:	139.6 KB ID:	3854337

                      How many sources of vortexes do you think there are on F-35, Gripen and Rafale? You can extend that to F-18 and F-22 if you wish.

                      WHY does L-M even bother with Vortex generators such as LEX and Strakes?

                      What deos the vortexes have as effect on the F-18/22 and F-35 again?

                      What is the reason for aerodynamic bashing of fins and elevators for those A-Cs?

                      During the tests, when in the AoA scale did L-M start noticing vortex breakdown again?


                      Frankly, as i said, ther more you copy/paste the more it is obvious that trying to emulate and copycat someone is not your forte, you haven't figured that those who knows their basics can spot those who doesn't only this way and it's is EA.SY.










                      A useful link for you.
                      https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rc...ucbuU0g39CchPQ
                      Last edited by ThincanKiller; 4th March 2019, 11:27.

                      Comment

                      • moon_light
                        Rank 5 Registered User
                        • May 2012
                        • 1033

                        Originally posted by garryA View Post
                        If you really learned much more advanced aerodynamic stuff than any of us, i am sure you can solve this aerodynamic math problems easy:
                        Prove to us you aren't just an armchair expert then.
                        Click image for larger version Name:	lecture 25 David.PNG Views:	0 Size:	21.3 KB ID:	3854318
                        That is too hard for him, he is a fanboy who learned some buzzwords at best.

                        Comment

                        • ThincanKiller
                          Registered User
                          • Feb 2019
                          • 91

                          Originally posted by moon_light View Post
                          That is too hard for him, he is a fanboy who learned some buzzwords at best.
                          Psychological projection is your favourite trick is it?

                          I don't need prove anything to your bunch, mate, and i never claimed i was at this level (although i fully understand what is written as opposed to many of you), I simply said more advanced stuff. meaning a lot more advanced that your bunch, especially this troll, here are some buzzwords he has no clue of...

                          In short if you can't even figure how vortex lift works, can't tell what L-M test pilot means by vortex breakdown and loss of control (F-35 spin test video, F-16 transonic departure video), you're not even at entry level of a flying school, guess what much more advanced means in this case.

                          Look at you not even capable of comprehending the meaning of the words control, maneuver and what they imply, comparing out of control to controlled flight takes some doing, troll fashion no? 120*/sec yaw rate an F-16 PSM? LOL!

                          So try to impress someone else with copy/paste material you don't understand, then just answer the simple questions I asked in my previous reply, no need for a calculator, and btw, since your pal got spanked in the F-16 forum, he havent learned anything, still come back with the same false arguments, wrong examples (F-4, F-14, F-16 and so on, all the worst in the book)... Hilarious.

                          Wasn't this document posted to him at the time?

                          A wind-tunnel study to find the lift and drag characteristics of a low-aspect-ratio wing/body configuration from an angle of attack (AOA) of -8 to 50 degrees was conducted.

                          A further study to find the comparative lift enhancement using the same wing/body with a close-coupled canard for wing/body angles of attack of 10, 22, 34, 40, and 48 degrees and canard deflection angles from -25 to 25 degrees was carried out.

                          It was found that a properly located canard enhanced the lift at all tested angles of attack, compared to the baseline wing/body configuration results.

                          The lift enhancement was maximized in the post-stall regimes, reaching values up to 34%.

                          A small improvement in lift-to-drag ratio was noted at all tested angles above 10 degrees angle of attack.
                          Compare to F-35 test pilot explaining how at high AoA (not P.S yet) they already experienced vortex breakdown, buffet and loss of control and you got the scoop, better tough, trying to pass aquaplaning for controlled powerslide on a car forum, I can imagine the face of some drivers there...

                          O_0 oooooooch.
                          Last edited by ThincanKiller; 4th March 2019, 16:25.

                          Comment

                          • Scorpion82
                            Rank 5 Registered User
                            • Jul 2005
                            • 4480

                            Don't say I haven't warned you guys. It's the ever same picture since 15 years or so that this guy is trolling aviation forums across the internet. Sampaix, Fonk, Thunder, Dare2 and whatever nickbames he has used, one must be blind not to recognise that distinguishable pattern of the "go back to school", "learn the basics", "use proper aviation teminology", "you don't comprehend" etc. phrases like a shouter on his local bazar. It's all too familiar as is his whining about French and Rafale bashing and pretending to be the poor victim who is shot for being the messanger of "universal truth". Ofcourse he will pretend not be himself, that's the reason why he precisely knows what people like me are talking about with reference to his past appearences here and elsewhere and that's the reason why he knows about specific subjects discussed that certainly only people involved can know.why? Because no one else cares and that's why I tell you to put him on your ignore list and let him starve out of the attention that he desperately needs. I know this will be ignored and the BS will go on until some moderator will finally lock down the thread and hopefully bans the troll as had been the case countless times in the past.

                            Comment

                            • ThincanKiller
                              Registered User
                              • Feb 2019
                              • 91

                              Originally posted by Scorpion82 View Post
                              Don't say I haven't warned you guys.
                              Err, yeah?

                              Again, apart for pausing in a fake GAF uniform trying to get us to believe that E-F uses canard in the roll axis and talking manure about people what exactly have you achieved that makes you such an authority in the field?

                              So now' you're a professional psychologist, are you?

                              No need for any form of expertise to see that the arguments used before by others are still valid today, that the most advanced researches on the subject is still dismissed as B.S by guys like you and your pals, of course, you will pretend to know who is who, Picard, Sampax, and all the geezers who pointed out how wrong you were in the Indian forum or elsewhere, were you tried to pass yourself for a German Air Force mechanic, talk about attention-grabbing.

                              Seriously, you should call it a day, because all your bunch has so far, is character assassination and reality denial, as for all the arguments used against you, they are well verified day after day.

                              And something else, "universal truth" is what is written by those who know, not you, that is, you prefer to talk B.S about people.

                              Now, since we are in a Rafale topic, what I couldn't miss was that the same geezers who came up with stuff like *loss of control is maneuvring" kind of nonsense, in many topics, including the F-22 vs Rafale video one in the F-16 forum I just visited, are going to explain to us that what the USAF graduates and other NASA/DRYDEN specialists who wrote those theses don't know what they wrote.

                              So let's agree to disagree, no I don't believe the unicorn version of controlled flight which makes a F-16 departure out of control a PSM, and I believe those who wrote theses on the subject of close-coupled canard especially the bit where they tested those solutions at AoA between -8 and +50* with mention:
                              It was found that a properly located canard enhanced the lift at all tested angles of attack




                              You call that B.S, I call that scientifically conducted and conclusive tests.

                              So trying to detract people attention from such "details" by coming up with the same paranoiac tirades and disneylandish definitions of controlled flight time and time again is not making your cases, Mr.

                              Oh, I nearly forgot, we had the same kind of rain dancing about Rafale M 1.4 supercruise and 11.0g, it takes time to debunk their whatever they like to call fake news, "opinions", but one day or another it hit them, some posted this leaked (at the time, info reserved to Salon Officials) and were trolled to death by the "specialists" who today try to pass out of control departure for controlled flight...



                              Click image for larger version  Name:	fiche-rafale-le-bourget-2011.jpg Views:	0 Size:	146.0 KB ID:	3854427
                              Have a nice one.


                              https://www.fighterpilotpodcast.com/...ssault-rafale/
                              Attached Files
                              Last edited by ThincanKiller; 4th March 2019, 19:39.

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                              • ThincanKiller
                                Registered User
                                • Feb 2019
                                • 91

                                Rafale to join IAF inventory in September, says IAF chief Dhanoa

                                India has ordered 36 Rafale fighter planes from Dassault Aviation of France as part of the IAFs modernization drive.


                                https://www.hindustantimes.com/india...oti8w28uK.html

                                Rafale fighter production 'alive' for next decade
                                Dassault can secure sufficient additional orders for the Rafale fighter to take production to at least 2030, but is unconcerned over any potential production gap with the next-generation combat aircraft it is developing alongside Airbus.
                                • 04 March, 2019
                                • SOURCE: FlightGlobal.com
                                • BY: Dominic Perry
                                • Paris
                                https://www.flightglobal.com/news/ar...decade-456291/
                                Last edited by ThincanKiller; 4th March 2019, 19:18.

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                                • garryA
                                  Rank 5 Registered User
                                  • Dec 2015
                                  • 1120

                                  Originally posted by ThincanKiller View Post
                                  I reiterate. Gripen departure in yaw spin was a full scaled PSM becaused the A-C was put into it by stalling dynamically, even at low speed, demonstrating pitch control at those low speed, with increased AoA up to 70/80*, controled in both acceleration/deceleration and stop to the yaw rotation before full recovery with full 3 axis controly ahthority throughout the entire length of the maneuver.
                                  Yep, you keep saying that but SAAB themselves never claimed Gripen can use post stall maneuver in combat and of course they also programmed the aircraft to recover when the AoA excess 26 degrees




                                  Originally posted by ThincanKiller View Post
                                  Gripen 90*/sec, F-35 60*/sec.
                                  Which is irrelevant since it is a spin recovery test and not a post stall maneuver, F-16, F-18 has all been to higher spin rate and recover. You don't even know many spin it need to get to 90 degrees/sec, let alone how many spin it need to stop.



                                  Originally posted by ThincanKiller View Post
                                  No LEX on a F4 did you say?
                                  There is no LERX on F-4, yes, that is correct. So compare an ancient aircraft with positive stability such as F-4 with a close coupled canard fighter then declare that it is exactly the same between a modern with fighter with lerx and negative stability is quite disingenuous


                                  Originally posted by ThincanKiller View Post
                                  how come F-18/22/35 all experience vortex breakdwon at lower AoA than a close-coupled canard then?
                                  interaction between wing and canard vortex can strengthen them, delay break down.
                                  But then again, depending on speed.




                                  Originally posted by ThincanKiller View Post
                                  How many sources of vortexes do you think there are on F-35, Gripen and Rafale? You can extend that to F-18 and F-22 if you wish.
                                  LERX, canard, in some case inlet chine and nose cone

                                  Originally posted by ThincanKiller View Post
                                  WHY does L-M even bother with Vortex generators such as LEX and Strakes?
                                  What deos the vortexes have as effect on the F-18/22 and F-35 again?
                                  The vortex flow creates an area of high negative pressure on the wing upper surface which increases lift and delays separation of laminar flow
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                                  Originally posted by ThincanKiller View Post
                                  What is the reason for aerodynamic bashing of fins and elevators for those A-Cs?
                                  vortex break => unstable turbulent

                                  Originally posted by ThincanKiller View Post
                                  During the tests, when in the AoA scale did L-M start noticing vortex breakdown again?
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                                  Originally posted by ThincanKiller View Post
                                  try to impress someone else with copy/paste material you don't understand, then just answer the simple questions I asked in my previous reply, no need for a calculator, and btw, since your pal got spanked in the F-16 forum, he havent learned anything, still come back with the same false arguments, wrong examples (F-4, F-14, F-16 and so on, all the worst in the book)... Hilarious.
                                  Wasn't this document posted to him at the time?
                                  A wind-tunnel study to find the lift and drag characteristics of a low-aspect-ratio wing/body configuration from an angle of attack (AOA) of -8 to 50 degrees was conducted.
                                  A further study to find the comparative lift enhancement using the same wing/body with a close-coupled canard for wing/body angles of attack of 10, 22, 34, 40, and 48 degrees and canard deflection angles from -25 to 25 degrees was carried out.
                                  It was found that a properly located canard enhanced the lift at all tested angles of attack, compared to the baseline wing/body configuration results.
                                  The lift enhancement was maximized in the post-stall regimes, reaching values up to 34%.
                                  A small improvement in lift-to-drag ratio was noted at all tested angles above 10 degrees angle of attack.
                                  Compare to F-35 test pilot explaining how at high AoA (not P.S yet) they already experienced vortex breakdown, buffet and loss of control and you got the scoop, better tough, trying to pass aquaplaning for controlled powerslide on a car forum, I can imagine the face of some drivers there...
                                  Which is quite disingenuous in your part, given that they were comparing a close-coupled canard design with a pure wing design of the same kind, no LERX, Chines whatsoever. LERX too can improve lift at high angle of attack.
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                                  Originally posted by ThincanKiller View Post
                                  Frankly, as i said, ther more you copy/paste the more it is obvious that trying to emulate and copycat someone is not your forte, you haven't figured that those who knows their basics can spot those who doesn't only this way and it's is EA.SY.[/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/LEFT]
                                  I am sure that you don't know your basics, given how you interpret the relation between G-limit and sustained G.
                                  The only thing you know is vortex this, vortex that, canard . That it , then you try to project that on every single things , all the wise ignore all related factors. You are like a guy who happen to know sweep wing has delayed mach cone than straight wing, and therefore he concluded that no aircraft with lesser sweep angle can fly faster than an aircraft with more sweep wing.
                                  Last edited by garryA; 5th March 2019, 03:38.

                                  Comment

                                  • ThincanKiller
                                    Registered User
                                    • Feb 2019
                                    • 91

                                    Originally posted by garryA View Post
                                    Yep, you keep saying that but SAAB themselves never claimed Gripen can use post stall maneuver in combat and of course they also programmed the aircraft to recover when the AoA excess 26 degrees
                                    ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZ.


                                    Are you finished making a fool of yourself publicly?

                                    Did you figure out the difference between controlled flight and out of control departure yet? What does maneuver means? Because all the funny examples you gave us, F-4/F-14, F-111, F-16, all with pretty much well known unpopular stall characteristics demonstrated either one of the other of those two things:

                                    1) You flame and troll and copycat like you're used to in F-16.supercom.

                                    2) You have no clue what you write.

                                    Personally, I think both, and something else, in the F-35 video, the flight engineers says himself that they start encountering vortex breakdown at 20* AoA, which would explain how a Gripen can reach a yaw rate 30*/sec higher in the same yaw spin with the advantage of having full controllability from the start of the maneuver, since they don't speed stall it and lose control as the L-M team explained, but stall it dynamically (you got the concept or you're going to post tons of unrelated pictures you haven't comprehended yet again?).

                                    A wind-tunnel study to find the lift and drag characteristics of a low-aspect-ratio wing/body configuration
                                    from an angle of attack (AOA) of -8 to 50 degrees was conducted
                                    .
                                    A further study to find the comparative lift enhancement using the same wing/body with a close-coupled canard for wing/body angles of attack of 10, 22, 34, 40, and 48 degrees and canard deflection angles from -25 to 25 degrees was carried out.


                                    It was found that a properly located canard enhanced the lift at all tested angles of attack, compared to the baseline wing/body configuration results.
                                    The lift enhancement was maximized in the post-stall regimes, reaching values up to 34%.
                                    A small improvement in lift-to-drag ratio was noted at all tested angles above 10 degrees angle of attack.
                                    Did you get it or do you need some pretty pictures too?

                                    Now, vortex breakdown, loss of lift, buffet, aerodynamic bashing are well known and advertised characteristics shared between F-18, F-22 and F-35, with the F-22 perhaps the least affected by it because as I already stated, it is a DELTA wing, but there is a good reason for this to happen, let's see, LEX plus inlet strakes equals two more sources of vortex, on delta wing producing vortex lift by nature, you know why F-22 is superior to F-35 post stall..



                                    So in short: You DONT know your own A-Cs, even less the close-coupled canards, you can keep trying, you just don't have what it takes to figure out why Rafale pilots don't fear F-18 and can measure up with F-22, F-35 is certainly not going to phase them the slightest, that's the cost of keeping yourself in delusion and reality denial, best example, posting about F-18 LEX forgetting Rafale is equipped with them too, but has the advantage of more interaction between other vortex sources to keep the airflow steady at higher AoA.

                                    Trolling is not good for you.
                                    Last edited by ThincanKiller; 5th March 2019, 04:26.

                                    Comment

                                    • garryA
                                      Rank 5 Registered User
                                      • Dec 2015
                                      • 1120

                                      Originally posted by ThincanKiller View Post
                                      Are you finished making a fool of yourself publicly?
                                      Did you figure out the difference between controlled flight and out of control departure yet? What does maneuver means? Because all the funny examples you gave us, F-4/F-14, F-111, F-16, all with pretty much well known unpopular stall characteristics demonstrated either one of the other of those two things:
                                      You still can't figure out the difference between controlled DEPARTURE and a combat post stall maneuver.
                                      I am not the one who try to blur a spin departure test and PSM
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                                      Originally posted by ThincanKiller View Post
                                      2) You have no clue what you write
                                      Ironic coming from someone who was proven wrong again then again

                                      Originally posted by ThincanKiller View Post
                                      Personally, I think both, and something else, in the F-35 video, the flight engineers says himself that they start encountering vortex breakdown at 20* AoA, which would explain how a Gripen can reach a yaw rate 30*/sec higher in the same yaw spin with the advantage of having full controllability from the start of the maneuver, since they don't speed stall it and lose control as the L-M team explained, but stall it dynamically (you got the concept or you're going to post tons of unrelated pictures you haven't comprehended yet again?).
                                      Now, vortex breakdown, loss of lift, buffet, aerodynamic bashing are well known and advertised characteristics shared between F-18, F-22 and F-35, with the F-22 perhaps the least affected by it because as I already stated, it is a DELTA wing, but there is a good reason for this to happen, let's see, LEX plus inlet strakes equals two more sources of vortex.
                                      Getting quite desperate now do you, i love how you try to merge
                                      Taurean comment: "for high angle of attack testing, we actually looking at angle higher than 20 degrees...."
                                      and
                                      Dan Canin comment: " as angle of attack increased, the flow which normally very smooth start to get separated .."
                                      then interpret that as "the flight engineers say himself that they start encountering vortex breakdown at 20* AoA", distinguishing liar



                                      Originally posted by ThincanKiller View Post
                                      best example, posting about F-18 LEX forgetting Rafale is equipped with them too, but has the advantage of more interaction between other vortex sources to keep the airflow steady at higher AoA
                                      In the world of Thincankiller where all wing shapes are equal, all rudders design are equal and all LERX are equal regardless of their shape and size.
                                      Last edited by garryA; 5th March 2019, 04:45.

                                      Comment

                                      • garryA
                                        Rank 5 Registered User
                                        • Dec 2015
                                        • 1120

                                        Originally posted by Scorpion82 View Post
                                        Don't say I haven't warned you guys. It's the ever same picture since 15 years or so that this guy is trolling aviation forums across the internet. Sampaix, Fonk, Thunder, Dare2 and whatever nickbames he has used, one must be blind not to recognise that distinguishable pattern of the "go back to school", "learn the basics", "use proper aviation teminology", "you don't comprehend" etc. phrases like a shouter on his local bazar. It's all too familiar as is his whining about French and Rafale bashing and pretending to be the poor victim who is shot for being the messanger of "universal truth". Ofcourse he will pretend not be himself, that's the reason why he precisely knows what people like me are talking about with reference to his past appearences here and elsewhere and that's the reason why he knows about specific subjects discussed that certainly only people involved can know.why? Because no one else cares and that's why I tell you to put him on your ignore list and let him starve out of the attention that he desperately needs. I know this will be ignored and the BS will go on until some moderator will finally lock down the thread and hopefully bans the troll as had been the case countless times in the past.
                                        You got a point. I was dragged in his trolling
                                        Last edited by garryA; 5th March 2019, 05:00.

                                        Comment

                                        • ThincanKiller
                                          Registered User
                                          • Feb 2019
                                          • 91

                                          Originally posted by garryA View Post
                                          You still can't figure out the difference between controlled DEPARTURE and a combat post stall maneuver.


                                          In the world of Thincankiller where all wing shape are equal, all rudder design are equal and all LERX are equal.
                                          Sorry, but I said PSM, you keep inventing stuff, posting "proof" of what you allege I said and haven't got the point yet, like the difference between post stall and high AoA, here you go again, and now, define maneuver and the difference between what Gripen did between 70* and 80* and this F-18 pirouette please.

                                          I can tell you what the difference is, Gripen can does it at much higher AoA than both F-18 and F-35 with a higher yaw rate too, and your "defensive" maneuvers don't stop F-16 or Rafale pilots to drill the brains off F-18 in ACMs, get over it, it proved useless and that's why it wasn't necessary to trick Gripen and Rafale FCS for this sort of stunts, or why top gunners flying F-22 don't use them, good for fanboyz at airshow or flaming in forums, not so in combat.

                                          So you still haven't got a clue, LEX are a lot more efficient when coupled with a Delta wing, since it produces vortex lift itself already, guess how they managed to partly solve the F-18 vortex breakdown after testing?

                                          Damned right, using strakes to produce yet another source of vortexes to stick them on the boundary layer, impossible on F-35 because VLO of curse, but eh, not everyone has the brain power to get this point, funny tough, that L-M and Dassault came to use the same <> 70* LEX and 48* delta for Rafale and F-22 no?

                                          Then what do you think vortex breakdown means other than " flow which normally very smooth start to get separated"? Why does F-35 encounter buffet issues from this AoA exactly? You make me laugh.

                                          Time for a change of nappies because you keep deluding yourself into thinking that you prove me wrong, amusing...

                                          Originally posted by garryA View Post
                                          You got a point. I was dragged in his trolling

                                          Well if you need to associate with another mythomaniac, (the guy who paused in front of a Typhoon in a fake German A-F uniform pretending that it uses canard in the roll axis), I have no chance... I note that you also use his own false version of the acronym for LEX, regardless of the fact that those who invented it write it differently, rather arrogant for someone who can't figure Typhoon control surfaces.

                                          It's not "anybody's trolling" you got dragged in, it's your inability to distinguish between your wet dreams and reality, something you two have in common, I really can't help you with that.

                                          Here a little picture for your education, 30* AoA nowhere near close to PS...

                                          Click image for larger version

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                                          Flow visualization at 30 degrees angle of attack using tufts.

                                          (NASA photo EC89 0096-205 with text added)

                                          Note the leading-edge extension from next to the cockpit extending back to the wing and the location of the point where the LEX vortex broke down and caused buffeting of the tail.
                                          Attached Files
                                          Last edited by ThincanKiller; 5th March 2019, 06:31.

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