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Rafale 2018 Thread: Europe's best Eurocanard

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  • halloweene
    Rank 5 Registered User
    • Jan 2012
    • 4342

    Originally posted by St. John View Post
    That's the exact opposite of what Desert Storm statistics show as regards ground-based air defences. And modern aircraft can look-down and shoot-down with ease.
    urban legend. Check.

    Comment

    • halloweene
      Rank 5 Registered User
      • Jan 2012
      • 4342

      2018 Rafale demo "from inside" really interesting. Regularly way above 9g. Poor pilot fighting forces...

      https://youtu.be/lVrE-h62llA
      Last edited by halloweene; 12th February 2019, 15:40.

      Comment

      • TomcatViP
        Rank 5 Registered User
        • Nov 2011
        • 6057

        That's why you have Alpha. And no, it's not a Marvel action hero.

        We have also shown before in those pages* that the G limit in the HUD is 10 beyond what the G meter freeze. Either it is the manifestation of a FBW limitation (would seem logical) either the HUD symbol can't be incremented beyond that number (not logical). So way above would logically be... 10. Something already a pain to watch.

        In this video, I haven't seen the G limit pass 9.8
        The Alpha also is capped around 25 in this demo
        There is also l'Effet bote Meuh manifesting itself during rolls excursion.
        The AoA indicator (gear down) showing up at 30deg
        The fuel fraction is minimal with a low fuel indication popping up at the third of the video and Bingo status at two-third.

        *Thanks to a video that was posted of a pilot demonstrating the high G 360 turn in front of the aircraft carrier CdG.
        Last edited by TomcatViP; 12th February 2019, 16:17.

        Comment

        • FBW
          FBW
          Rank 5 Registered User
          • Dec 2011
          • 3295

          Originally posted by halloweene View Post

          urban legend. Check.
          Yes, Im sure the Saratoga aviators who attacked H-3 in 1991 would agree with you. Low level-=absolutely safe.

          I guess your right, AdlA doesnt need LO assets, after-alll shaping wont help when your nap of the earth flying and happen over a technical mounted with a 14.5 mm KPV.

          In all seriousness, there is a place for low level penetration, but youd better hope the element of surprise isnt lost. Radar guided AAA and systems like Roland dont give a lot of reaction time for countermeasures. Low level exposes you to pop up threats. Next time to interview a Rafale pilot, ask them if they would rather go in at low level or high altitude against an alert target protected by systems like Tor and pantsir. My guess is they are going to answer high altitude with stand off weapons , not to mention stand-off jamming and cruise missile strikes to neutralize long range area denial systems.

          Comment

          • St. John
            Rank 4 Registered User
            • Jan 2018
            • 568

            Originally posted by halloweene View Post

            urban legend. Check.
            Err, nope, it's a complete fact.
            https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/gulf/cron/

            Bit on page 20.
            https://www.gao.gov/assets/230/224366.pdf

            It's been a feature in stats since Vietnam. 1,244 SA-2s were launched to kill just 15 B-52s but aircraft flying at low level were picked off with ease. All you need at low level is some lucky git with an MG. If my air force was going to lose an aircraft, I'd want it to at least cost the enemy a long-range SAM or more.

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            • Kovy
              Rank 5 Registered User
              • Apr 2004
              • 1465

              Nice picture of the Charles de Gaulle, ready for duty after her MLU.

              Click image for larger version

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              The Rafale international forum :
              http://rafale.freeforums.org/

              Rafale news blog :
              http://rafalenews.blogspot.com/

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              • Guest's Avatar
                Guest

                Originally posted by OPIT View Post
                No I'm not. You're just pretending that a by product of VLO (internal weapon bays) is yet another benefit. Ditto about the large internal fuel volume vs external fuel tanks.
                While I'm at it, the "5th generation fighter" label is a LM thing I just don't care about.
                Keep living in your dream world. As the large internal volume of the airframe on Stealth Fighters is a "huge" benefit. If, you care to acknowledge it or not...

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                • OPIT
                  Rank 5 Registered User
                  • Aug 2005
                  • 901

                  Originally posted by Scooter View Post

                  Keep living in your dream world. As the large internal volume of the airframe on Stealth Fighters is a "huge" benefit. If, you care to acknowledge it or not...
                  You're welcome in this dream world. If a large internal fuel volume was such a huge benefit then everyone would build fatter fighters.

                  Comment

                  • TomcatViP
                    Rank 5 Registered User
                    • Nov 2011
                    • 6057

                    From the M2K to the Rafale, "fatter" was the goal...

                    Also, is this fat, because it's full of juice with a WB?

                    Last edited by TomcatViP; 13th February 2019, 10:10.

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                    • St. John
                      Rank 4 Registered User
                      • Jan 2018
                      • 568

                      Originally posted by OPIT View Post

                      You're welcome in this dream world. If a large internal fuel volume was such a huge benefit then everyone would build fatter fighters.
                      People have been building fatter fighters ever since WWI.

                      Comment

                      • OPIT
                        Rank 5 Registered User
                        • Aug 2005
                        • 901

                        OMG ! I thought I could argue with serious peoples and I ended up in a schoolyard. Sorry. My mistake.

                        Comment

                        • TomcatViP
                          Rank 5 Registered User
                          • Nov 2011
                          • 6057

                          Typical Denial behavior. This place have been a Schoolyard for so many years (see the thread tittle)...

                          Comment

                          • halloweene
                            Rank 5 Registered User
                            • Jan 2012
                            • 4342

                            Originally posted by TomcatViP View Post
                            That's why you have Alpha. And no, it's not a Marvel action hero.

                            We have also shown before in those pages* that the G limit in the HUD is 10 beyond what the G meter freeze. Either it is the manifestation of a FBW limitation (would seem logical) either the HUD symbol can't be incremented beyond that number (not logical). So way above would logically be... 10. Something already a pain to watch.

                            In this video, I haven't seen the G limit pass 9.8
                            The Alpha also is capped around 25 in this demo
                            There is also l'Effet bote Meuh manifesting itself during rolls excursion.
                            The AoA indicator (gear down) showing up at 30deg
                            The fuel fraction is minimal with a low fuel indication popping up at the third of the video and Bingo status at two-third.

                            *Thanks to a video that was posted of a pilot demonstrating the high G 360 turn in front of the aircraft carrier CdG.
                            Hilarious when comparing to F-35 demo, which last only half of the time of Rafale demo... Abiyt 10g+ during demo, it is wel documented from the cvery pilots that do it....
                            Keep praying your Atlantic puffin...
                            Only one thing true in your statements. Rafale FCS limit plane to 30. And it is a tactical choice. During tests it was seen at 110, -20 Kts

                            Comment

                            • TomcatViP
                              Rank 5 Registered User
                              • Nov 2011
                              • 6057

                              *10g (plus or minus) is crazy Hallow. It's a mad foray into HellWillCome-for-sure at airshow. Hear the pilot. This is extreme flying. Nobody want an European Sukhoi. That's all what I am saying (plus the fact that the tactical advantages are today overset by Alpha).

                              Regarding the fuel fraction, you had a long sniper-in-an-alley session during last Bourget Airshow. I think it was of some kind of interest for all of us here to draw a parallel.
                              Last edited by TomcatViP; 13th February 2019, 14:56.

                              Comment

                              • halloweene
                                Rank 5 Registered User
                                • Jan 2012
                                • 4342

                                Advantages are not overset by alpha. This is PR to promote F-35 which has otherwise medium quality of flying. High alpha makes you point towards a very different vector from your velocity vector and therefore make of you a sitting duck.

                                Of course this is extreme flying, i just posted it for pleasure. But you do know that some "tator" (rafale demo pilot) claimed to be regularly above 10g during square turn don't you? I'm sure you remember it.

                                Comment

                                • moon_light
                                  Rank 5 Registered User
                                  • May 2012
                                  • 1014

                                  Originally posted by halloweene View Post
                                  Only one thing true in your statements. Rafale FCS limit plane to 30. And it is a tactical choice. During tests it was seen at 110, -20 Kts
                                  Going to high AoA is not the same as having good nose authority at high AoA

                                  Comment

                                  • halloweene
                                    Rank 5 Registered User
                                    • Jan 2012
                                    • 4342

                                    The very definition of super manoeuvrabiloity is that you can still control the plane after stall. The only problem is that if you do so you lose so much energy that after you stand as a sitting duck.Always that evergy factor.... The typical answer to this type of manoeuver is full power pull the stick. Of course, there is nothing such as a perfect move in BFM.
                                    Last edited by halloweene; 15th February 2019, 16:49.

                                    Comment

                                    • TomcatViP
                                      Rank 5 Registered User
                                      • Nov 2011
                                      • 6057

                                      Per defintion, Alpha is when you are still...in flight. Super maneuverability refers to post stall maneuvering, a domain where wings doesn't provide any lift... hence where there is no Alpha.

                                      High alpha pitch up or high beta out of path slides are perfectly recoverable maneuvers that allows you to cut the corner of a turn, a spiral and/or get a shot at an opponent without overloading your plane or blacking out (there is nearly no extra G inside the Alpha [beta] pitch [yaw] rate gain.

                                      Like I said already, it's like having a long journey inside a Cadillac following a Citroen 2cv. Only one will cry Mama...
                                      Last edited by TomcatViP; 16th February 2019, 19:18.

                                      Comment

                                      • halloweene
                                        Rank 5 Registered User
                                        • Jan 2012
                                        • 4342

                                        Per defintion, Alpha is when you are still...in flight. Super maneuverability refers to post stall maneuvering, a domain where wings doesn't provide any lift... hence where there is no Alpha
                                        Revise, but nvm. Used to your knowless rantins. alpha is the difference between you velocity vector and your "noise pointing". Being able to recover is irrelevant (what was just pointed slightly above when i reminded that a Rafale as measured at 120 alpha -20 Kts during FCStests)

                                        The allusion about car industries is quite funny considering the difference in industry levels between USA andEU.

                                        Comment

                                        • TomcatViP
                                          Rank 5 Registered User
                                          • Nov 2011
                                          • 6057

                                          No alpha refers to the Angle of Attack. Semantically, it refers to the wing angle with the true airstream. It's irrelevant to the nose or main axis direction (think @ induced lift to be convinced). Beyond max alpha where the wing is fully stalled, you only have an airstream angle with your velocity vector. It can even be -180 in Yaw departure (when wing is upside down and reversed with the direction of flight)

                                          Comment

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