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Rafale 2018 Thread: Europe's best Eurocanard

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  • halloweene
    Rank 5 Registered User
    • Jan 2012
    • 4351

    Fusion here is understood as the merge of raw data acquisition tracks from various sensors to generate unique target opportunities.

    And?

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    • TomcatViP
      Rank 5 Registered User
      • Nov 2011
      • 6122

      Can't read further down, eh?!

      Comment

      • halloweene
        Rank 5 Registered User
        • Jan 2012
        • 4351

        Lost in tranlation. do you mean that one can't fuse informations if it isn't itself "stealthy"?

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        • TomcatViP
          Rank 5 Registered User
          • Nov 2011
          • 6122

          Absolutely not. Cross spectrum stealthiness only augments your data acquisition potential. For some sensor, it won't make much of a difference (I guess). For others it would.

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          • halloweene
            Rank 5 Registered User
            • Jan 2012
            • 4351

            So istill donot get what argument allows you to say that Rafale donot have a"full" data fusion.

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            • TomcatViP
              Rank 5 Registered User
              • Nov 2011
              • 6122

              If you plug a major system like the Radar afterward and as a system that can be swapped without modification with a less powerful unit on the field, it is dubious that the you'll get the level of optimization with the airframe to reach data fusion level. Just like you can't match suit's color without cutting the into same cloth.

              Same for the IR channel when the function was transplanted into the Mica.

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              • halloweene
                Rank 5 Registered User
                • Jan 2012
                • 4351

                Ah OK. No argument then. Datafusion is a powerful tool in order to circonvent poor funcioning of a sensor or another. And Rafale had datausion way before AESA...
                Last edited by halloweene; 29th December 2018, 14:18.

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                • ActionJackson
                  Rank 5 Registered User
                  • Oct 2010
                  • 289

                  Serious question. If the Rafale has equal software capability to all other aircraft, how do we account for the difference in code lines between it and the F-35?

                  Surely its missing a number of features.

                  Comment

                  • TomcatViP
                    Rank 5 Registered User
                    • Nov 2011
                    • 6122

                    And Rafale had data fusion way before AESA...
                    It's plausible that before the AESA went in and the IR were internals Rafale had some form of data fusion. The fact that the Rafale emits much more on the IR and radar band makes that "fusion" way less deeper than what you can expect on real stealth airframe like the 22 and 35 (see the line you didn't bother to read).
                    Now that both sensors have been removed or replaced and are using commune interface it's unlikely that this still does happen. This is only logical if you pay attention to the facts. And, once again Hallow, this was discussed publicly by the DGA (years after we put this on the discussion by the way).

                    So, unless you want to replay this discussion in loop for yourself (with again and again the same arguments), I would rather move frwd myself.

                    Comment

                    • halloweene
                      Rank 5 Registered User
                      • Jan 2012
                      • 4351

                      quote DGA please. Data fusion is about algorithms that allow to use datat from several sensors to enhance each others. Nothing to do with emitting or whatever. Pointless. And how do you know that Rafale emits more in IR than F-35? I've seen them both during their demo in a crotale NG google. Won't comment on F-135... And no, MICA is in no way using same interface as OSF.

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                      • TomcatViP
                        Rank 5 Registered User
                        • Nov 2011
                        • 6122



                        quote DGA please.
                        We had for example a video posted in this thread already (by me?). There are not much video to search of a conference where DGA AdlA and Dassault speak together. It should be quick. But don't blow... a fuse.

                        MICA is in no way using same interface as OSF
                        I never said that too or that they had to be plugged on the nose
                        Data fusion is about algorithms that allow to use datat from several sensors to enhance each other
                        What did I just said? But mathematics adapted to raw signals would be even better. Don't forget that among all those 1 and 0 there are a lot of information lost. Processing power can make for the loss in someway but it doesn't seems to be the way they proceed here. (You'll connect back to the importance of acquiring a signal of good quality).

                        Again, this conversation is pointless since all this has been already dealt before on the forum.
                        Last edited by TomcatViP; 30th December 2018, 02:01.

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                        • eagle1
                          Rank 5 Registered User
                          • Feb 2011
                          • 1125

                          As far as rafale sensor fusion is concerned we are not talking of mere sensor correlation of tracks (computed separatly by each sensor) to be showcased on a single display but true sensor fusion of raw datas. F22, F35 have also this capability (and soon the Gripen E).

                          From Dassault :

                          Rafale Data fusion

                          To exploit the smart data fusion management system, the Rafale propose to the Pilot its suite of sensor and an advanced Man-Machine Interface (MMI).

                          Advanced MMI

                          The situational awareness is displayed on large color screens in order to reduce aircrew workload.
                          The Hands On Throttle and Stick technology has been adopted to make function selections easier. To accelerate and facilitate information assimilation, the instrument panel of the Rafale cockpit is divided into one large Head-Up Display (HUD) and three color multifunction screens:

                          Two touch-sensitive lateral displays,
                          And a wide angle, high-resolution head level display collimated to infinity to enable the pilot to shift instantly from head-up flying to head-down mission monitoring without a need to refocus.

                          In the two-seat Rafale variant, the front and rear cockpit displays can be operated in a tandem mode, which presents the pilot and the back-seat with the same information, or de-coupled so that crew members can carry out different tasks simultaneously: an obvious advantage during complex missions.

                          Multi-sensor technology

                          The Rafale is equipped with :

                          RBE2 multimode electronic scanning radar,
                          Front Sector Optronics (FSO) passive IR/TV/laser system
                          Spectra multi-spectral electronic warfare system,
                          Plus the infrared seekers of the Mica IR missiles.

                          This combination of multiple sensors enhances the probability of detecting hostile targets, including stealth aircraft. It also lowers the risk of fratricides fight.

                          The Rafales weapon system can also simultaneously deal with airborne and ground threats, a crucial advantage over the nearest competitors because pilots are now able to attack targets on the ground while engaging the enemy fighters presenting the greatest threat.
                          Silent intercepts can be conducted with the radar switched off.

                          On the Rafale, there is no preferred sensor: the radar, the FSO, and the Spectra electronic warfare suite all contribute to situational awareness, and the data obtained from the different sources is fused into a single tactical picture shown on the central, head-level display, offering the pilot a clear image of the evolving tactical situation.

                          Sensors have inherent advantages and drawbacks: the passive FSO has excellent countermeasure resistance, and its angular resolution is better than that of the radar. On the other side, the radar is able to determine the target's position and velocity vector in all weather conditions.
                          The Spectra suite can analyze enemy radar emissions to precisely identify an emitter.

                          The powerful data fusion algorithms combine and compare the data gathered by all Rafale sensors, and accurately position and identify targets. Its much more than simple correlation as it gives the pilot an accurate and unambiguous tactical picture.

                          When all tracks are positively identified, the system automatically creates a synthetic image with all enemy and friendly tracks shown in a clear and explicit way. Off-board sensor can also contribute data to the integrated tactical air picture, via the data link. Wingmen or AEW aircraft can feed their data to the leaders system, thus helping target-sorting and co-operation within the formation.

                          The Rafale sensors fusion is also a crucial advantage in BVR combat, because it provides accurate synthetic information coming from multiple sensors, which offers the pilots a much better understanding of the tactical situation during combat, and this, 360 degrees around the aircraft.
                          In conclusion with its sensor suite, its MMI and its smart sensor fusion the Rafale is able to:

                          - Avoid all kind of detection,
                          - Jam enemy radar with intelligent AESA Jammer,
                          - Use multispectral passive sensors in defensive and offensive roles,
                          - Penetrate enemy airspace low and deep carrying high loads, to long ranges
                          - And it is highly manoeuvrable in dog fights
                          - all this from land bases and carriers, available today and combat proven
                          Some instances of rafale sensor fusions in real life :

                          1) From DSI magazine on ATLC :

                          Concurrently, the Rafale shown one's claws. At the end of the last autumn was held on the Al-Dhafra air base, the annual edition of ATLC (Advanced Tactical Leadership Course). Organized since 2000 by the UAE Air Warfare Center, ATLC aims to help air forces pilots of the Arabian Peninsula to improve their tactics and techniques by confronting them to the pilots of major Western air forces. For this particular case, the Rafale from the Air Force take the opportunity to confront their main competitors on the international scene. Especially since , in parallel , stood the Dubai airshow, which could be used as a sounding board for results obtained during the exercise.
                          The AdA has shipped on site for five weeks, from November 8 year December 12, not less than 6 Rafale and 3 Mirage 2000-5E. A detachment served by only 125 people and which required only 60 tons of material. The availability rate of the Rafale, which have accumulated 220 flight-hours in 148 missions, while shotting down - virtually meant - not less than 61 hostile fighters, was 97% for the entire period. And no missions has been canceled . According to Lt. Colonel Fabrice Grandclaudon, squadron leader of the EC 1/7 in Saint-Dizier and commander of the detachment," the weapon system Rafale, taking its place in COMAO (raids) of thirty different combat aircrafts, made at the ATLC the demonstration of his extraordinary flexibility. And to cite the case of this mission on November 29 during which a Rafale pilot, has launched, in barely 66 seconds, 3 Mica on 3 enemy planes (two virtually destroyed) and six AASM bombs on as many targets, some 48 km far . All destroyed!

                          Versatility is not an empty word.

                          Better yet, december 7, a pair of Rafale which protected a SAR combat device shot down 10 incoming hostile fighters while dropping six AASM on 6 different land targets forty km far , everything without leaving their CAP racetrack.In addition, the Rafale OSF allowed the positive identification of hostile fighters forty kilometers far. And, December 6, a MICA has been assigned its target - indeed virtually destroyed - only with the SPECTRA system. SPECTRA which was also capable, twice, to detect and classify - and to propose flight path changes to the pilot to avoid detection-specific envelope - some air defense systems (SA-6) that even the American F-16 CJ specialized in the SEAD mission (suppression of air defense opponents), yet also in flight, were not able to collect.. Certainly, the F-16 CJ in question had not been equipped during the flights with their common SEAD equipment, namely the HTS pod (HARM Targeting System), while their threats library had not been refreshed to integrate some of the air defense radars in the area. SEAD was not their daily mission. But it was not either the case for the Rafale. And yet, the Spectra, with no other equipment than those onboard daily, has done better than the F-16 CJ which, however, are specialized in the SEAD mission. That's the difference between multirole who need to return to land on its base to switch from one type to another mission and versatility that allows flight operations at the same time in different roles. It also demonstrates, incidentally, the ability of the AdA to quickly take advantage of "hostile" ground-radar records tunes operated the day before and to integrate them into the rafale SPECTRA library. This allowed the Rafale to classify them without any difficulty. In short, the performance was moderately appreciated by our American allies! Especially since the six F-22 Raptor deployed there by the 27th FW Langley FS/1st proved incapable of giving the beating promised to the Rafale. Of the six dofights - gun limited - which pitted the two types of aircraft in the Emirians skies in late 2009, only two saw the virtual destruction of a Rafale. Other meetings were concluded without a winner. A "performance" for the Rafale against the most modern [and most expensive] fighter in the world, presented as particularly agile thanks to its steering nozzles and moreover stealthy. Because the Rafale was, according to the lieutenant-colonel Grandclaudon, "a serious challenger in matter of maneuverability " And the french pilot to regret that his USAF colleagues had not allowed the simulated employment of MICA missiles during these confrontations.

                          The Typhoon were inferiors.

                          Concurrently, November 16, the Rafale gave, according to the french pilot, a memorable beating to the RAF Typhoon - the most recent version - which were also deployed in the UAE for the ATLC. To put it bluntly, Lieutenant-Colonel Grandclaudon said the two air battles - battles with IR-guided missile and cannon - which opposed Rafale and Typhoon gave a score of 7 wins for the first and 0 for the second, the only Rafale considered as having been destroyed flew below the allowed flight floor ! Obviously this statement has immediately raised an outcry among British pilots, relayed by the media and the Anglo-Saxon specialized blogosphere, including claims that the Typhoon did not fly as such during the fighting, but simulated "red" attackers, MiG-29 and Su-27 in that case. So, the 1/7 Provence squadron leader made a point to recall that 2 of his Rafale were also"red chest" (MiG-29 index "Charlie") when they shot down 4 "blue" Typhoon - flying as Typhoon - while being reduced to use virtual russians AA-10C missiles to be guided by the Rafale until the impact on their target, which forbade to shoot multiple targets at once . For Fabrice Grandclaudon, the limitations of the "red" plastron role don't prevent a weapons system to show its real capabilities, because the pilots are taking advantage of the real human-machine interfaces and sensors on board, one of the Rafale has benefited from a refresh of its tactical situation by his teammate via Link-16. In other words, even if some of them simluated Su-27, the British pilots virtually shoot down were using the sensors and the avionics of their Typhoon and not those of a Su-27! And the french pilot to recognize, with great sportsmanship, that the Typhoon pilots who had been opposed to the Rafale the week preceding the ATLC were young and relatively inexperienced, as the French already benefits from lessons learned from 3 operational detachments in Afghanistan (one year of presence in all) and 4 of its pilots had participated in Red Flag 2008.

                          Some advantages that make the difference.

                          However, he heavily emphasized the performance of the french system in the field of arms data fusion, from his point of view the main reason of the superiority obtained. Instead of each sensor to display its studs (aircraft detected) on a specific screen, forcing the Typhoon pilot to operate an intellectual gymnastics , annoying in combat stress, to check if the plot of its corresponding screen of electronic warfare was or was not the one visible on the radar screen or IRST, the Rafale's systems present to the pilot a single plot on a screen, the system automatically compares the plots provided by the various sensors on board and decides if it is or not the same plane. The french pilots have also appreciated the agility of the antenna of the electronic RBE2 radar - The Typhoon has for now only a mechanical antenna - allowing to refresh the situation in the whole volume monitored. But they insist, for close combat, on the perfect controllability of their Rafale, thanks to the excellence of FBW, to the extreme limits of the flight envelope.. To point the nose toward the target and to design it to the weapons system in the absence of a viewfinder-HMD while operating at very low speed. What are not necessarily capable of the main opponents of the Rafale ...
                          Well obviously, one should not rejoice in excess. The extremely positive results of these meetings have been obtained in special circumstances. The pilots had been set specific roles by the commander of the COMAO device and were therefore not free to exploit in depth all the potentials of their weapons system. The results have been different perhaps in other circumstances (nevertheless, some time ago, another meeting between Typhoon and Rafale, in Corsica, was also turned into "massacre" at the expense of the first 8 losses to 0 ). But, simply put, the EC 1 / 7 pilots are particularly satisfied with their stay in UAE. Their demonstration has , aptly, made a strong buzz [noise] among the aviators of the region and troubled the Anglo-Saxons until now convinced of the utter superiority of their planes. A disturbance also compounded by the loss - virtual of course - of an F-22 gun shot by an UAE Mirage 2000-9 flown, this time, by a French experimented pilot. Really, when everything goes wrong ... P

                          2) Interview of Captain Romain who wrote this book on the rafale : https://www.amazon.fr/Rafale-%C3%A0-.../dp/B00GQRMRCU

                          Cne Romain:

                          One must first know that France has a very high credibility worldwide in terms of jamming. So one should be particularly ill informed to think there could be a beginning of a gap in Spectra.
                          Spectra is a accomplished self-protection system that we are developping every day with programming, testing and with software and hardware updates: month after month ,Spectra is evolving.
                          In my opinion, i think we are currently using only 2/3 of Spectra capacities: We still have much work to do to optimize our jamming libraries and methods of use.
                          Finally, just to give you an idea of what stealth is or isn't : to be 100% stealth, one should neither be seen nor to let others know they are seen ... For example, a stealth aircraft that would use its radar to fire a missile, would be suddenly no longer stealth
                          One of the great strength of the Rafale is here: we do not need to activate our radar to fire our missiles far beyond visual range ..

                          Corentin

                          Hello Captain,
                          Thank you for these clarifications! I am perhaps too curious but can you explain how the Rafale is capable of firing beyond visual range "passively", and how far?
                          Do other airplanes of the same generation (EF, Gripen, F-18) use, to your knowledge, equivalent techniques ?

                          Cne Romain:

                          The Rafale merges the informations coming from its sensors to give a very reliable and clear picture to the pilot. It's already a considerable advantage over previous-generation aircraft, including EF and Gripen. When the pilot decides to fire a air to air missile, the missile leaves the aircraft taking automatically into account all available informations.
                          When the radar is not used, the missile can use the OSF (a TV camera coupled with a laser rangefinder), the informations provided by another aircraft via the MIDS, a heat source detected by the OSF or a MICA IR, or finally a localization by SPECTRA. Faced with these sensors, stealth is useless and we know, thanks to our tests ,that our missiles are very effective in such context.
                          3) You can also refer to the independent swiss evaluation of the rafale which praises its sensor fusion compared to the Typhoon and Gripen (second page) :

                          http://lignesdedefense.blogs.ouest-f...t%20suisse.pdf

                          Rafale sensor fusion is really working and proving its value.
                          Last edited by eagle1; 30th December 2018, 10:21.

                          Comment

                          • TomcatViP
                            Rank 5 Registered User
                            • Nov 2011
                            • 6122

                            The conversation was about Fusion not being limited to merged display. You are exactly proving that this is sadly the way Fusion can only be discussed for the Rafale today. I admire your patience for pasting something that was already put here before.

                            One thing that Rafale has definitively achieved on this thread is the endless... fusion of times.

                            [/bored]

                            Comment

                            • eagle1
                              Rank 5 Registered User
                              • Feb 2011
                              • 1125

                              Not sure to understand you. My point was to say that rafale sensor fusion is not a mere correlation of tracks on a single display but an actual fusion of raw datas through the MDPU.

                              Comment

                              • halloweene
                                Rank 5 Registered User
                                • Jan 2012
                                • 4351

                                Do not try eagle. For some religions, it is heretic to say that Rafale has a comprehensive data fusion engine is heretic. Same for active stealth, despite a conference where present NATO SACT (that is NATO military N2) pronouncing thses words "balance between active and passive stealth" publicly.

                                Comment

                                • St. John
                                  Rank 4 Registered User
                                  • Jan 2018
                                  • 568

                                  Is there a difference between active stealth and ordinary suppression jamming?

                                  Comment

                                  • TomcatViP
                                    Rank 5 Registered User
                                    • Nov 2011
                                    • 6122

                                    Just like sparkled wine and Champagne.

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                                    • XB-70
                                      Rank 4 Registered User
                                      • May 2018
                                      • 364

                                      Sensor fusion is about maximizing situational awareness. Part of that is de-cluttering. You don't want the pilot to be confused. But it goes farther than that because, with sensor fusion, your various sensors can talk to one another to coordinate so as to get the pilot more information. Please allow me to pimp some of Lockmart's marketing. (Since a picture is worth a thousand words)

                                      Click image for larger version

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                                      As can be seen, you have a process loop. The various sensor data is analyzed and correctly correlated, and then the best fit solution is fed to the pilot. But the pilot is also able to feed that best fit information back. If the best information is being held on radar, but the pilot needs a visual image for his mission, then he can feed that info to the OLS/IRST and get an infrared picture once it comes into range. So there are two functions: 1) correlation, and 2) feedback to sensors. Now, with the F-35, Lockmart is going a bit further.

                                      Click image for larger version

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                                      If you look at the process loop on the left hand side you will see the big difference is that the pilot has been taken out of it. There is a separate branch showing that he is fed fused information but all tasking of sensors is being done by the F-35's computers using intelligent algorithms. Lockmart is trying to increase situational awareness even further by making it so that the pilot isn't burdened with system management functions and can devote his/her full attention to the mission. So it is not true to say that the Rafale doesn't have sensor fusion. It does - every bit as much as the Raptor or Typhoon. However, it is fair to say that it is being taken to the next level with the F-35. And it can do this because it is a much newer combat platform and has gobs more processing power and system bandwidth than Raptor or Rafale.

                                      Comment

                                      • XB-70
                                        Rank 4 Registered User
                                        • May 2018
                                        • 364

                                        Is there a difference between active stealth and ordinary suppression jamming?
                                        Yes there is. You have to know a lot more about the capabilities of the threat transmitter to use "active stealth" because you have to transmit your own signal at exactly the same frequency and 180 degrees out of phase. Your transmission power also has to be properly scaled to match the predicted reflected signal from your own aircraft. You don't have to be that precise with normal suppression.

                                        Comment

                                        • St. John
                                          Rank 4 Registered User
                                          • Jan 2018
                                          • 568

                                          I thought most modern jamming systems did that.

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