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Rafale 2018 Thread: Europe's best Eurocanard

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    P.S. have to love how several posters are sticking to MBDA quoted range
    Even MBDA quote 'in excess of 250km', which is technically a true a statement, but could also be validly applied to a Tomahawk or AGM-86. But then, given that China helped NK develop an ICBM, the MTCR is water under the bridge now. And the INF is pretty much defunct also given the numerous breaches.

    MTCR says 500 Kgs payload. coma. Rest is pointless
    Depends how you interpret that though. 'Capable' doesn't necessarily have to mean its default warhead is 500kg or more.
    Last edited by St. John; 27th February 2018, 20:49.

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      Nothing really new, but nonetheless...
      http://www.defense-aerospace.com/dae...mg/fox3_19.pdf

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        Several confirmations.
        Dassault yearly result conference tomorrow 8 am GMT. Will try to dig.
        Only one real news : DRAL will start to produce Falcon 2000 and Rafale parts end of the year. starting a 5 years ramp up. Next Qtari batch should be ordered soon.
        Ah and production rate is ramping up to slightly above 2.5/month.
        Last edited by halloweene; 8th March 2018, 20:19.

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          Where did you read that ? Falcon prod will be down 25% next year (and with equal RoI), Rafale prod was 9. So are you additioning all the production lines do find that slight previsional ramp-up?
          Last edited by TomcatViP; 11th March 2018, 22:12.

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            Probably for the rafale thread but the rafale will probably be the first fighter aircraft to rely on AI :

            Minister Florence Parly has launched a vast program to develop artificial intelligence in combat aviation by 2021

            Artificial intelligence, integrated on board Rafale-type aircraft, or drones, must allow to restore a long lasting superiority to the French combat aircraft, against the United States, China and Russia.

            The Rafale will soon be equipped with artificial intelligence, a necessity for French combat aircraft to remain competitive

            "I tell you today, artificial intelligence will soon be in all barracks, on all ships and in all aircraft. Florence Parly, Minister of Armies, set an ambitious course at the Directorate General of Armaments (DGA), Friday, March 16, reports Challenges. "Autonomous navigation, collaborative combat, predictive simulation and maintenance will be the daily routine of our soldiers, sailors and airmen," she continued.

            Development of new intelligent sensors, autonomous flight capabilities in complex environments, but also automatic radar identification or weapon identification technologies: the specifications are dense.

            The announced means are substantial: an annual investment of 100 million euros and the recruitment of 50 experts in AI by 2022. A demonstrator of secure platform of IA for the specific needs of armies, called Artemis, will enter into service in 2019, a defense innovation agency will be created to promote the opening of defense innovation to civil society.

            If it wants to remain competitive, the French combat aircraft has no choice but to invest heavily in AI. Global air defense systems are continually being improved, such as the Russian S-300 and S-400. The development of artificial intelligence will also make more accessible targets more and more isolated. With this in mind, the IA will facilitate collaboration between Rafale-type combat aircraft and combat drones, which could be derived from the Dassault Neuron demonstrator.
            https://www.lopinion.fr/edition/econ...-drones-145228
            Last edited by eagle1; 4th April 2018, 21:54.

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              Development of new intelligent sensors, autonomous flight capabilities in complex environments, but also automatic radar identification or weapon identification technologies: the specifications are dense.
              !!
              the first built in France, certainly... This AI spending frenzy smells very bad, I will tell you. Let's finger cross for the best outcome. I fear that the most I-Attitude could be to build a wall, barring the caravans of false prophet, just to re-use some lately popular images...

              Hence my first lines of code to contribute to the effort:

              IA+AI=0
              IA.AI=1
              Last edited by TomcatViP; 5th April 2018, 12:20.

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                Where did you read that ? Falcon prod will be down 25% next year (and with equal RoI), Rafale prod was 9. So are you additioning all the production lines do find that slight previsional ramp-up?
                You know what? I did not read it, i just listened and questioned Dassault CEO. ANything else?

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                  One question to those who may know more about Rafale production rates:

                  What was the Rafale production rate from 2013 onwards? And when the ramp up was supposed to start, how long did it take to achieve the ramp up in production rates? What is the current production rate and what is target rate for 2019-2022?

                  Has Dassault been able to scale up production rates after winning the 3 export orders? Or has it been slow because their suppliers are finding it hard to ramp up their production rates?

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                    9 Rafale for 2017 (in total)

                    Falcon will be down by 25% in 2018 (with a constant amount in value ). You can find this in the statement of Dassault CEO during board meeting.

                    That's all the number we know. Ramp-up, yes, this is a fair supposition but how much, nothing clear went out.

                    So, if Hallow suggests that he was told something beyond that legal statement, that would be quite interesting.
                    Last edited by TomcatViP; 5th April 2018, 19:21.

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                      One question to those who may know more about Rafale production rates:

                      What was the Rafale production rate from 2013 onwards? And when the ramp up was supposed to start, how long did it take to achieve the ramp up in production rates? What is the current production rate and what is target rate for 2019-2022?
                      The official release seems to have 2017 numbers at 9 (as TomcatVip mentions above) and 2018 forecast of 12, so a 33% increase. Going back, Dassault delivered 13 aircraft in 2007, 14 aircraft in 2008 & 2009, 11 aircraft/year in the 2010-2014 timeframe, 8 aircraft in 2015, and 9 aircraft in 2016.

                      http://hugin.info/143388/R/2174455/838484.pdf
                      https://www.dassault-aviation.com/wp...ual_report.pdf

                      Has Dassault been able to scale up production rates after winning the 3 export orders? Or has it been slow because their suppliers are finding it hard to ramp up their production rates?
                      The program has not yet reached its peak production rates from back to 2008. Much like any production program, it is the delivery schedule demanded/negotiated by the customers that impacts production rate decisions so Dassault, much like any other aviation company will aim at achieving a production rate that it can sustain in order to maximize profit.
                      Attached Files
                      Last edited by bring_it_on; 5th April 2018, 20:12.
                      Old radar types never die; they just phased array

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                        So cleared now. thanks BiO. I hadn't seen the full repost just an abridged version.

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                          The video of the Q&A from the 2017 Annual Results can be seen below. He does mention the 2.5 rate in the coming years but does not provide a definitive timeline. At this point, given the target of 12 in 2018, it appears quite likely that they will likely acheive that 25-27/year rate in around the 2020-2021 timeframe.

                          - https://www.dassault-aviation.tv/201...s-1626-en.html
                          Last edited by bring_it_on; 5th April 2018, 22:43.
                          Old radar types never die; they just phased array

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                            Thanks bring_it_on.

                            So 9 jets per year for 2018 and 11 per year from 2011 to 2014 and 8 per year for 2015. At that rate, they'll manage to deliver all the backlog aircraft only in 10 years' time, i.e. by 2028.

                            Why such a slow rate of production?

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                              At the time it was likely done to prolong production. Delivering on the order book too fast would have eaten up the backlog either forcing production freeze or an emergency order from the French MOD to keep the line warm. By slowing deliveries down they were able to wait it out while their international campaigns materialized. Now, going forward, they are looking to ramp up to a rate which they can gradually build up to and then sustain because ramping up, rapidly and then having to scale backshortly thereafter is expensive so a better way is to build up to 12 then 20 and finally 25+ a year and then look to sustain that for a number of years via future domestic and international sales. They will obviously be hoping for more French (beyond those that are currently on backlog) and International orders once F4 contract is signed and development is completed. If this pans out it will allow them to sustain the higher production rate for longer.

                              So far, based on the Annual Reports and other financial summaries the Rafale tally at the end of 2017 with the French services should be 144 (149 deliveries and 5 accidents).

                              So 9 jets per year for 2018 a
                              9 was what they acheived in 2017. 2018 target is 12 deliveries. They will probably move it to the 15+ range in 2019 and then 20 or more in 2020 and beyond as they build up to the 2.5/month production rate.
                              Last edited by bring_it_on; 6th April 2018, 01:58.
                              Old radar types never die; they just phased array

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                                Why such a slow rate of production?
                                It's the only way to keep everyone employed without running out of orders.

                                If they built them at a rate that they normally would be capable of, they would have to layoff everyone after a few months then hire new people every few years when they sell some more. This is the same problem that Boeing is having with F-15 & F-18 production lines and LM is having with the F-16 line.
                                "The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."

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                                  FYI, I track the deliveries here:
                                  http://rafalenews.blogspot.com/p/ord...eliveries.html

                                  From 2019 to 2021 the production rate should rise up to 24 a/c per year (with the current backlog) to deliver Qatari and Indian Rafale. After that the rate will decrease again if there is no new export order.
                                  The Rafale international forum :
                                  http://rafale.freeforums.org/

                                  Rafale news blog :
                                  http://rafalenews.blogspot.com/

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                                    FYI, I track the deliveries here:
                                    http://rafalenews.blogspot.com/p/ord...eliveries.html
                                    In your chart it states that total Rafale deliveries in 2017 were 6, 1 for France and 5 for Egypt. However, data published by Dassault state 9, 1 for France and 8 for Egypt. Maybe there is a typo?
                                    History and Military Technology blog

                                    alejandro-8en.blogspot.com

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                                      updated, thanks!
                                      The Rafale international forum :
                                      http://rafale.freeforums.org/

                                      Rafale news blog :
                                      http://rafalenews.blogspot.com/

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                                        Originally posted by TomcatViP
                                        9 Rafale for 2017 (in total)
                                        Don't mix up production and deliveries rates.

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                                          Delivery rates at the end of the day are what most will look at in order to gauge how many aircraft a company has delivered to its customers. It is a very useful metric hence is most cited by almost all OEMs when declaring their performance and financial results for the year. Many more aircraft will be in the various stages of production at any given time.
                                          Old radar types never die; they just phased array

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