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NH90, yay or nay?

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  • xman
    Rank 5 Registered User

    #21
    Issue is the NH is much bigger than the legacy Lynx . Tolerances in the hangar on ships that used to operate the lynx are subsequently much less than it used to be, which is a concern when the NH is parked in those hangar in rough seas. The Norwegian are requesting the supplier to certify those tolerances.
    Am not sure how valid a demand that is, might be depending on the contract I guess. But obviously the earlier delays make relationship to supplier quiet tense.

    https://www.aftenposten.no/norge/i/y...y-i-darlig-var

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    • Y-20 Bacon
      Senior Member

      #22
      wow, problems both at sea and on land.

      this begs the question, didn't those forces who procured them carefully examine it?

      examine the structural quality of the floor
      the accessibility of its doors
      its compatibility with ships?

      it seems a lot of these things could have been avoided

      Comment

      • haavarla
        Rank 5 Registered User

        #23
        Sadly, our Norwegian MoD gets an class A for bad @ss work and this for a whole range of procurements.
        Look no further than our Frigates, prior Generation Army artillary, cost allocated to the F-35, our Base structure planning.
        And lord behold, i predict a colossal cost overrun when our new Subs gets on the table.

        Well i kind of like our Skjold Corvettes, but them too was shocking expensive to both Develop and operate.
        When you have a certain small Defense budget, you have to play by the numbers,, and our MoD does not.
        Thanks

        Comment

        • Y-20 Bacon
          Senior Member

          #24
          we don't agree on a few things Harvey, but definitely agree with you on Norway.

          what do you think they should've purchased instead (for those bad acquisitions you've listed)

          Comment

          • haavarla
            Rank 5 Registered User

            #25
            Cap F-35 at 28 airframes. Forego any Sub capability. We simply can'T afford it. The new SK Artilery looks good. Order more! Shift funding for upgrade MBT Leo and buy new. Trash the NH-90 already and order something.. anything else. Shift funding to better anti air system. Get an extra Army brigade up ASAP!
            Thanks

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            • MAC314
              Rank 3 Registered User

              #26
              As of 2016 the RNZAF had the best reliability rate of all NH90 operators in the mid 60 % range while the worst operator reliability was something like 30 % or less.
              Apparently the NHI management culture is a problem as they were reluctant to be the bearer of bad news to the next layer of management, so often the RNZAF work their way down the management chain when seeking solutions.

              Comment

              • Marcellogo
                Rank 5 Registered User

                #27
                So, it's a problem given by BOTH extreme weather conditions and too small spaces aboard.

                Certainly there is a big difference between putting it in an Hangar intended for a Lynx instead, just as an example, on an ORIZZONTE or FREEM, built for hosting a EH-101.
                .

                Comment

                • Y-20 Bacon
                  Senior Member

                  #28
                  Not sure if it is wise for Norway to give up its submarine fleet given its key position in the northern Atlantic. Should cut funds elsewhere to support the subs (like F-35 as mentioned).
                  South Korean stuff are good enough and affordable

                  speaking of reliability..ive found this

                  http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nati...5e097c5eacbd1b

                  The unreliability and under-*performance of two of Australias military helicopter fleets has caused a lack of jobs for pilots and a reduction in training operations at Army Aviation.

                  These are the latest problems to be associated with the Tiger attack and reconnaissance helicopter and the troop transport MRH-90 Taipan, according to notes in the Defence Departments annual *report.

                  Both helicopter fleets, which together cost more than $5 billion, have been notoriously unreliable, with the Taipan running five years behind to reach final operational capability due next year and the Tiger reaching FOC last year seven years late and then only with a number of caveats.

                  The annual report says there has been reduced overall training due to the ability to absorb pilots into units as a flow-on from the *choppers underperformance.

                  High maintenance liability continues to impact rate-of-effort achievement, it says. There was reduced training at the Army Aviation Training Centre due to the ability to absorb pilots into the operational unit.

                  The report singles out the MRH-90, saying reliability, availability and maintainability deficiencies continued to impact the fleet.

                  Availability levels have not yet been achieved for transition of the MRH-90 into the Special Forces support role, it said. Flying was suspended twice during 2016-17 due to technical information management issues, with corresponding rate-of-effort achievement.

                  Among the roles the Taipans were supposed to undertake was as a replacement for the ageing Black Hawk helicopters flying special forces.

                  The report said the Tigers rate of effort had been estimated to fly 4800 hours over the year but attained 3971 while the Taipans were due 7000 but only managed 5348.

                  It revealed the MH-60R Seahawk had been estimated to fly 4800 hours but only managed 4037 because of a lack of crew.
                  it only confirms my theory that whenever the Germans and French collaborate on something, the end product isn't that great.
                  better to go full French or full German.

                  Comment

                  • Ozair
                    Rank 5 Registered User

                    #29
                    Originally posted by Y-20 Bacon View Post
                    speaking of reliability..ive found this

                    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nati...5e097c5eacbd1b
                    None of that is surprising. As I alluded to earlier the Aus DoD recommended the AH-64 and the UH-60M as the most mature, capable and lowest risk options for the respective helicopter tenders but they were overruled by the Government of the day who wanted to cosy up to Europe. Had the original American options been selected then both would have served with Australian forces in Afghanistan, significantly improving Australian operations, and likely reducing Australian and local population casualties, in Tarin Kowt.

                    Comment

                    • TomcatViP
                      Rank 5 Registered User

                      #30
                      AlphaJet, everlasting C-160s are there to balance your hard thoughts

                      It's not about any mix of nationalities, it's about doing a job fine. No more, no less.

                      Comment

                      • Y-20 Bacon
                        Senior Member

                        #31
                        hah, yeah the alphajet and c160 were fine (sort of).
                        its more of these late/post cold-war collabs that tend to suck. no decisive threat leading to diverging interests and goals.

                        Comment

                        • Yama
                          Rank 5 Registered User

                          #32
                          Issue is the NH is much bigger than the legacy Lynx . Tolerances in the hangar on ships that used to operate the lynx are subsequently much less than it used to be, which is a concern when the NH is parked in those hangar in rough seas. The Norwegian are requesting the supplier to certify those tolerances.
                          Am not sure how valid a demand that is, might be depending on the contract I guess. But obviously the earlier delays make relationship to supplier quiet tense.
                          Errr...so they didn't, like, take measurements beforehand?

                          Comment

                          • haavarla
                            Rank 5 Registered User

                            #33
                            Errr...so they didn't, like, take measurements beforehand?
                            Its not just exactly that. It also has to do with safety protocols when pulling the helios in nd out of the Hangar. The thing is just too unstable on its own MLG during bad condition. So in that respect, the helios would have no problem fit inside in good condition.
                            It also has to do with when the NH-90 is strapped down. The Airframe Tear nd Wear is simply too much of what it can handle, you end up getting too much futige in eye securing fasteners on the helio, which only spread out elsewhere on the airframe. This only coinsist with reports that the floor and doors are too thin and fragile designed for Maritime operation..
                            We can all see where this is going..
                            Last edited by haavarla; 7th January 2018, 02:27.
                            Thanks

                            Comment

                            • Y-20 Bacon
                              Senior Member

                              #34
                              check out the news thread.

                              Belgium is having mad problems with their NH90. Mad problems!

                              such a shame.. its probably the most beautiful looking of the new gen of helicopters (well a lot of them are good looking.. Mi-38, EH101.. but not the Surion)

                              Comment

                              • Y-20 Bacon
                                Senior Member

                                #35
                                giving more credence to the idea that collaboration with the Germans in the post-cold war era is a bad idea..

                                latest news is that the German Navy rejected their latest frigate due to bad engineering!
                                it seems the quality of German military engineers has gone down with all these issues plaguing various weapons
                                (at least the Leopards are still good..although it seems didn't perform so well in Syria or the Turks are poor drivers)

                                Lesson for customers wanting a Western European helicopter.. buy British, Italian, or pure French. Maybe Polish if your poor.

                                Comment

                                • BlackArcher
                                  Rank 5 Registered User

                                  #36
                                  Latest news on the Belgian's trouble with their NH90

                                  link

                                  Belgium’s fleet of naval variant NHIndustries NH90s has been removed from operations while a problem with the helicopters’ radar system is rectified, the Belgian Ministry of Defence (MoD) confirmed to Jane’s on 16 January.
                                  Three of the four NH90 NATO Frigate Helicopters (NFH) operated by the Belgian Air Component (BAC) are currently undergoing a factory-level modification to the European Navy Radar (ENR), while the fourth is undergoing a major overhaul.

                                  “The ‘situation’ [with the radar] was already known when the first helicopters were delivered [in 2013], so [we] were prepared for it,” an MoD spokesperson told Jane’s , adding that the navy’s Sea King and Alouette III helicopters can fill any capability gaps, as can NH90s from either France or the Netherlands.

                                  The confirmation that all four of the BAC’s NH90 NFH helicopters are currently out of service comes on the back of Belgian media reports that the MoD is far from happy with the NHIndustries consortium of Airbus Helicopters (62.5%), Leonardo (32%), and Fokker Aerostructures (5.5%) over the issue.

                                  “Everything went wrong from delivery,” BAC commander General Frederik Vansina, was quoted by Flemish VRT Radio on 12 January as saying, adding, “There are indeed penalty clauses included in the contract and NHIndustries [is paying] them, but we do not yet have a deployable helicopter.” Airbus Helicopters, the majority stakeholder in the international consortium, directed all questions to NHIndustries, which did not respond to a request for comment.

                                  Comment

                                  • Y-20 Bacon
                                    Senior Member

                                    #37
                                    never had a deployable helicopter..
                                    problems from day 1

                                    not very good.

                                    I wonder which of the NH90 customers will be the first to replace them (not completely unfeasible as Austria is going to replace their Typhoons)

                                    Comment

                                    • alexz
                                      Rank 5 Registered User

                                      #38
                                      Norway has concluded that its NH90 fleet of 14 could not provide the required flying hours. Oslo says that to meet the requirements for both the navy and coastguard, it needs 5,400 flight hours a year from the entire fleet. But an analysis performed by the armed forces suggests that availability is only 2,100h a year.

                                      https://www.flightglobal.com/news/ar...opters-445470/

                                      On the other hand, Sweden might ground half of its fleet of NH90 due to high costs. The super puma they used previously, was retired at only around 7,000 hours, when commercial oil and gas super pumas regularly surpass 25,000 flight hours. Were the super pumas retired prematurely just to have a brand new helicopter?

                                      http://sverigesradio.se/sida/artikel...rtikel=6882525

                                      Comment

                                      • Cherry Ripe
                                        Rank 5 Registered User

                                        #39
                                        giving more credence to the idea that collaboration with the Germans in the post-cold war era is a bad idea..
                                        Well given the excellent history of Blkow's helicopters it might have been better for everyone if the Bo 125 hadn't gone multinational...

                                        https://sites.google.com/site/stingr...t/belkow-bo125

                                        As originally proposed as Euro-UTTAS. But then each customer country wanted some input and workshare and we ended-up with the redesigned-by-committee NH.90

                                        Comment

                                        • J-20
                                          Rank 3 Registered User

                                          #40
                                          its like every month, we hear new stories of customers being frustrated with their NH-90 purchase.

                                          looks like Sweden will have to pull the super pumas they retired early, back into service!

                                          and to the top comment, I agree, the germans (if not collaborating) make nice things.

                                          Comment

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