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JF-17 vs J-10 vs LCA

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    #21
    Some people prefer wrong information instead of no information.

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      #22
      @Deino

      Because numerology rocks!

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        #23
        Some factors are just not calculable based on fanatical numerology.

        Fleet readiness isn't even factored in there. It's more focused to used a 7-man ground crew to keep on F-15E in the air than it is two 5-man ground crews for two F-16's. And each squadron will have a different number of bodies available at facilities based upon how close to wing and group depots. Logistics does seem to fit numerology all that well in that respect.
        Go Huskers!

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          #24
          Well, what respect you want to compare from them Garry ? you might want to limit it to some factors.. say cost per flight hour or generic price, then discussion could be start in hopefully proper manner.

          --

          Paralay did good one there in quantifying, and unless someone come up with equivalent work, it would be unfair and disrespectful to dismiss his without considering the amount of effort to make that tabulations.

          Some more elaborations however would be needed on why it calculated that way.

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            #25
            It is not that I know a better one, but how this an undefinined item like "corner of forward edge of wing" or "nozzle rotation angle" is relevant to this comparison??
            Do you have a complaint about the methodology or the translation? Or are you sad that I prevented the 400-page flame from growing? :P

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              #26
              LCA Tejas wing loading higher than that of the FC-1? And FC-1 has a higher T/W ratio than the LCA? Despite similar engine thrust and empty weights? Whatever hard work you've put into this comparison, Paralay, I'm afraid a lot of it doesn't make sense.

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                #27
                @paralay.... It is simply the method.

                In your rating there are cerrain issues like the obe I mentioned which are completely irrelevant while others "in comparison to Su-27" are based on what???

                Deino
                ...

                He was my North, my South, my East and West,
                My working week and my Sunday rest,
                My noon, my midnight, my talk, my song;
                I thought that love would last forever; I was wrong.

                The stars are not wanted now; put out every one:
                Pack up the moon and dismantle the sun;
                Pour away the ocean and sweep up the woods:
                For nothing now can ever come to any good.
                -------------------------------------------------
                W.H.Auden (1945)

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                  #28
                  No problem, let's clarify the characteristics of these aircraft. Where can I get them?

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                    #29
                    When I am back home ... I am just in France for vacation.
                    ...

                    He was my North, my South, my East and West,
                    My working week and my Sunday rest,
                    My noon, my midnight, my talk, my song;
                    I thought that love would last forever; I was wrong.

                    The stars are not wanted now; put out every one:
                    Pack up the moon and dismantle the sun;
                    Pour away the ocean and sweep up the woods:
                    For nothing now can ever come to any good.
                    -------------------------------------------------
                    W.H.Auden (1945)

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                      #30
                      Originally posted by stealthflanker
                      Well, what respect you want to compare from them Garry ? you might want to limit it to some factors.. say cost per flight hour or generic price, then discussion could be start in hopefully proper manner.
                      Paralay did good one there in quantifying, and unless someone come up with equivalent work, it would be unfair and disrespectful to dismiss his without considering the amount of effort to make that tabulations.
                      I want to compare them in terms of kinematic, sensors and weapons. In general, how they stack up as fighter against more popular candidate such as F-16 or Mig-29. Regarding paralay tables, i find values of some criteria are somewhat dubious such as RCS, range of radar, mean of survivability..etc. Where are the number came from ?
                      Last edited by garryA; 7th October 2017, 03:46.

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                        #31
                        I would really like to see your figures Paralay. I see you have used the classic method developed during WWII and looks to me you are using the standard Russian / Soviet method. You are keeping Su-27 as the standard I assume.

                        I think it may be interesting to factor the following in:
                        1. Logistic efficiency & Servicibility (should include operational costs, turnaround time)
                        2. Combat Efficiency (this should include things like range, payload, aircombat effectiveness, electronics & avionics)

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                          #32
                          http://s92025sm.beget.tech/paralay_tab.xls

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                            #33
                            So how does F-CK-1 compare?

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                              #34
                              F-CK-1 has lower TWR engines and weaker electronics overall.

                              F-CK-1 looks better than FC-1 or Tejas in my opinion. If Taiwan gear wasn't neutered it would be right up there in between.
                              Go Huskers!

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                                #35
                                Each parameter is compared with the same parameter Su-27 (air-to-air) or Su-24 (air-ground). In the cells of the formula, you can see it

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                                  #36
                                  Originally posted by MadRat View Post
                                  F-CK-1 has lower TWR engines and weaker electronics overall.

                                  F-CK-1 looks better than FC-1 or Tejas in my opinion. If Taiwan gear wasn't neutered it would be right up there in between.
                                  I completely forgot about the AIDC F-CK-1 Ching-kuo. It is a very decent light combat aircraft.

                                  Even if you you look at the original version, it is not that weak compared to the FC-1. The original version had a AN/APG-67 variant. It can track 10 and engage 2 targets. F-CK-1 was the 1st fighter a/c in Asia to carry an indigenously developed Active Radar Homing AAM (The TC-2). Those 2x TFE1042-70 engines can push the F-CK-1 to Mach 1.8 in afterburner. Also remember Remember the F-CK-1 started a major upgrade in 2011 including the RADAR, EW, etc. It should give the FC-1 a good run.
                                  Attached Files

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                                    #37
                                    Here is my revised light combat aircraft list for comparison:

                                    For me the winner by quite a margin goes the JAS-39. In Air-to-Air, Python-5 and Derby armed Tejas would be quite formidable. For Anti-ship roles JF-17 can carry (or at least will carry) CM-400AKG and CM-802AKG. This is pretty interesting capability and off-course JF-17 must have the lowest price tag.

                                    SAAB JAS-39:


                                    HAL Tejas:


                                    CAC/PAC JF-17:


                                    AIDC F-CK-1:

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                                      #38
                                      For me the winner by quite a margin goes the JAS-39. In Air-to-Air, Python-5 and Derby armed Tejas would be quite formidable. For Anti-ship roles JF-17 can carry (or at least will carry) CM-400AKG and CM-802AKG. This is pretty interesting capability and off-course JF-17 must have the lowest price tag.
                                      Do you mean JAS-39C or JAS-39E? Why do you think it is better by a wide margin?
                                      Why do you think LCA better than JF-17 and CK-1?

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                                        #39
                                        Originally posted by garryA View Post
                                        Do you mean JAS-39C or JAS-39E? Why do you think it is better by a wide margin?
                                        Why do you think LCA better than JF-17 and CK-1?
                                        Well regarding the Tejas vs JF-17, the point was about air-to-air weaponry. Tejas has test fired Derby and they are trying to integrate Python-5. It has already test fired R-73. DASH HMDS used with the HOBS missiles should give the Tejas a major advantage. When it comes to the the JF-17 I have so far only seen them carry the PL-5EII for WVR. This the cheapest of the WVR missiles sold by China. I haven't even seen the PL-9C which is larger and has better specifications, but even it doesn't compare to the Python-5. Don't think the JF-17 uses any HMDS for the moment either. Things could change if the PAF integrates either A-Darter or PL-10E to the JF-17. The other thing is the fly-by-wire system. JF-17 has Digital Quadruplex FBW system in the pitch only while the Tejas has a All-axis Digital Quadruplex FBW. When it comes to EW systems, countermeasures, etc and how effective they are I have know idea. You generally don't get much info on them. Radar wise Tejas for the moment has EL/M-2032 but will get EL/M-2052 while the JF-17 has KLJ-7 v2 and later blocks will get KLJ-7A AESA. But. when it comes to air-to-surface the JF-17 has some very interesting options including the CM-400AKG, CM-802AKG, CM-102, LS-6, MAR-1 and so on.

                                        Gripen (excluding Gripen NG and her variants for the moment) has nearly 250 built so far and is in service with 4 Air-Forces. When it comes to armament alone it is as if you combined the Tejas and JF-17 into one. AIM-9, IRIS-T, A-Darter, AIM-120, Meteor, AGM-65, RBS-15, KEPD 350, etc, etc....

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                                          #40
                                          F-CK-1 TWR doesn't look so bad compared to Tejas and JF-17

                                          empty weight: 6500 / 6560 / 6586 kg
                                          thrust: 8626 / 9170 / 8707 kg
                                          TWR empty: 1.32 / 1.4 / 1.32

                                          assuming wiki numbers are correct...
                                          Tejas is better, but is also draggier according to reports. F-CK-1 looks very sleek, at least subsonic, supersonic wing sweep is probably a bit low.

                                          F-CK-1 has an advantage in weapons carriage. It can carry 4 AAMs without pylons, 6 with only 2 pylons.
                                          Tejas carries all AAMs on pyons.
                                          JF-17 two AAMs on wing tip stations.

                                          I would imagine in an A/A configuration this gives the F-CK-1 an edge in performance.


                                          Yes I like the F-CK-1 except for its nose. It's too much F-16 like but without the underside intake, it looks weird.
                                          How can less be more? It's impossible. More is more.
                                          Yngwie Malmsteen

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