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    Airbus: European Future Fighter Program

    Airbus calls on France to join European future fighter effort
    https://www.flightglobal.com/news/ar...-fight-438111/

    09 JUNE, 2017 SOURCE: FLIGHTGLOBAL.COM BY: STEPHEN TRIMBLE TOULOUSE

    A week before the Paris air show, the head of Airbus Defence & Space's military aircraft division has called on France to participate in the development of a new airborne weapon system proposed by Germany and Spain to succeed the Eurofighter Typhoon.

    "I really hope that France will be involved," says Fernando Alonso, speaking to reporters on 9 June at Airbus media day. "We have to do this in Europe. There's no place to do two or three different systems."

    The objective of a single European fighter programme first arose 25 years ago, but Germany and France pursued different paths: Germany joined with Italy, Spain and the UK to develop the Typhoon and France commissioned Dassault to produce the Rafale.

    With the UK committed to withdrawing from the EU, Alonso's invitation is currently reserved to governments within the bloc, describing it as "difficult" to have clarity on London's future dealings with Brussels.

    Last year, Germany and Spain partnered to draw up requirements for the New Generation Weapon System (NGWS), a proposed new fighter that would be developed under the Future Combat Air System effort, which includes other elements of air warfare technology, including unmanned air vehicles (UAV) and space-based capabilities.

    In a planning document published last year, Germany's Bundeswehr envisions that Typhoons will operate with the NGWS with some overlapping capabilities to allow for greater operational flexibility and smooth the transition from existing to future technology.

    In previous fighter development programmes, France has insisted on preserving its legacy of designing and building complete aircraft, a tradition that began with the Dassault Mystre series and continued through the Mirage to the Rafale.

    In the past decade, however, the country has teamed up with other countries to develop stealthy UAVs, such as the multi-national Neuron demonstrator and bilateral Future Combat Air System with the UK.

    "The time is right for us in Europe to decide and to decide to build something together and be available for all of us," Alonso says.
    Germany and Spain invite France to join the Airbus program to develop a new successor for the Typhoon but reject the United Kingdom.

    It explains why the UK has joined the TF-X program.

    #2
    France doesn't need anyone to design & build a fighter plane. But hey if it helps vassalize France even more I guess our traitors in command are going to go for it.

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      #3
      They probably need help to design and build a good one, though.

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        #4
        France no doubt has the technical capabilities to design and build a follow-up to Rafale all by themselves. However the question is whether they are willing to spend so much money on it.

        A "5. gen" a/c will most likely be more expensive to develop than Rafale, and Rafale was already at the limit of what France was willing to spend (at least that is the impression that I got).

        Thus it seems to me that France will need to find a partner for the next fighter development. They could do like the UK and team up with a country outside of EU; e.g. India and their AMCA.

        Germany and Spain clearly need more partners.

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          #5
          It explains why the UK has joined the TF-X program.
          I don't think so...

          The UK may join Japan instead...

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            #6
            Did Airbus release any drawings or give any hints at high-level specifications yet? Or even timelines?

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              #7
              I sometimes wonder if the UK-Japanese program makes sense. What will the requirements be? They will both have the f-35, so building a strike fighter doesn't make much sense. Maybe Japan will want a PCA type design, but the UK will already have something like that from their FCAS.

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                #8
                Since they will both have F-35s, it could be a F-22 type fighter geared mainly for A2A. In other words a replacement for the Eurofighter/F-15J & a jobs program.
                "The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."

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                  #9
                  If France joined, it might also replace the French fighter jet, the Rafale, when that becomes obsolete in 2030, Handelsblatt said.
                  https://euobserver.com/economic/138193

                  Rafale obsolete in 2030?

                  Ahem... I don't think so.

                  But does this imply that the Germans will consider Typhoon to be obsolete in 2030? Oforr are the Germans just grossly underestimating the French fighter program? (for whatever reason?)

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                    #10
                    Originally posted by Loke View Post
                    France no doubt has the technical capabilities to design and build a follow-up to Rafale all by themselves. However the question is whether they are willing to spend so much money on it.

                    A "5. gen" a/c will most likely be more expensive to develop than Rafale, and Rafale was already at the limit of what France was willing to spend (at least that is the impression that I got).

                    Thus it seems to me that France will need to find a partner for the next fighter development. They could do like the UK and team up with a country outside of EU; e.g. India and their AMCA.

                    Germany and Spain clearly need more partners.
                    Where you get idea that France can make 5G fighter by itself. Do you not see the weak engines and small size of rafale. The joint venture like CFM and various suppliers spread around the world. and those were best times for surplus Middleastern capital in France

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                      #11
                      what's funny (ridiculous even) is that they "invite France to join their program" meaning, the french give them money and forget about their own industry... basically, another Typhoon fiasco...

                      The only way to make anything correctly and competitive is to choose nations who partner on the program, and send an RFP to different european manufacturers.. with firm requirements and a neutral way to estimate the compliance (if you just say everybody vote as you feel, you'll have every nation choosing the one that gives them the most work, despite it being more or les appropriate.. that's european politics). once a design has been chosen, they participate and pay for the development made by the winning bidder and that's it... forget about making several production facilities that'll negate any economy of scale...

                      but that is something you won't ever see... between the requirements that are too different and nobody wanting to pay for something they don't intend to specifically use on one hand and on the other the fact that every politician and his brother will want a work share for his own country, there's no possibility at this date to make a viable mmultinational program

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                        #12
                        what's more, France has the Rafale evolution pretty much planned to have it operational and current well into the 2040's... for the next 30 years, basically... why would they spend their cash on a dedicated striker to be introduced in, say 15 years, that has little to do with their operational doctrine?

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                          #13
                          Is this an indication that NATO is crumbling??

                          UK-Turkey join forces on the TF-X
                          Germany-Spain (+) France- European Future Fighter program

                          Comment


                            #14
                            How does this imply that nato is crumbling?

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by White_lightning View Post
                              How does this imply that nato is crumbling?
                              They said the UK will not be invited to join the program and that its a EU project. This shows division and that EU now comes before NATO

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                                #16
                                Originally posted by TooCool_12f View Post
                                what's more, France has the Rafale evolution pretty much planned to have it operational and current well into the 2040's... for the next 30 years, basically... why would they spend their cash on a dedicated striker to be introduced in, say 15 years, that has little to do with their operational doctrine?
                                It will take longer then 15 years. Could be around 2040 before fielded in numbers.
                                They haven't even got a computer model of it yet. Give that till 2020. Then building a model 2025 then flying demo models snd prototypes till 2035. Then manufacturing yeah late 2030s to 2040.

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                                  #17
                                  It is most likely that the BAE-Mitsubishi and BAE-Turkish Aerospace Industries 5. Generation combat aircraft programs may eventually become one program between Japan-Turkey-UK.

                                  In fact the Japanese have also hinted this in their press-release:

                                  The press release further notes that Japan will continue to explore fighter jet co-development options with other countries. “Regarding the possibility of international joint development on fighter aircraft in the future, we will continue to exchange views with other countries,” the MoD statement reads. http://thediplomat.com/2017/03/japan...h-fighter-jet/

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    Bayar,

                                    In my opinion the BAE Turkish tie up is still only an industrial move to keep Britain current. There is more potential in the UK/Japan programme and the only thing they have in common is the idea that Britain is looking outside the EU.

                                    If Airbus is asking the French to consider partnering, they will not be planning to take the lead. Even though Rafale is a wonderjet, it will need replacing by 2030/40 and cogs must start turning.
                                    Last edited by mrmalaya; 15th June 2017, 11:18.

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      Let put it in that way: Germany and Spain, member of the eurofighter program have not taken part to the F-35 one so they would have to find a substitute for their actual legacy planes.
                                      They contacted France, a founding member of Airbus asking them to join.
                                      Such move is quite sound, as all those nation have planes acquired in the '80 to substitute.
                                      Problems for Spain and Germany is however that France actually look instead to further advancing the Rafale instead of thinking about a completely new item.
                                      The idea that they have to wait for EF to became obsolete is however a false one , like UK and Italy have acquired F-35 they can go toward a two line AF instead, a plane geared more for A2A mission and one for A2G instead.
                                      Uk, Turkey and Japan are instead full time members of the F-35 program so they are looking with a plane with different performances, much more A2A oriented and above all they have a much more relaxed timeline ahead.

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        Mrmalaya, there is some NATO technology that BAE systems cannot share with Japan. Whereas, Turkey is already privy to all NATO STAGNAG's, IFF systems, UAI technology etc. Hence, why the BAE-Turkish Aerospace Industries program will be more advanced than any deal with UK-Japan.

                                        The Turkey-UK agreement is also a Government to Government agreement. I dont know whether this is the case with Japan and the United Kingdom. The Turkey-UK agreement also states that the technology developed may be used by the Royal Air Force and that Turkey will not charge a licence fee etc for this.

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