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Airbus: European Future Fighter Program

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    #41
    The Spanish economy is now growing at rates that Germany, France & Italy can only dream about.
    But their debt is at 100% GDP and they have a 4.5% deficit and Banco Popular may have been an omen.

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      #42
      Ah, the newest powerpoint from airbus. It's going nowhere.

      http://www.reuters.com/article/us-lo...dChannel=11563

      http://elpais.com/elpais/2017/06/05/...96_078384.html

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        #43
        European defence industry should consolidate. They should arrange a 3-way competition between Airbus, Saab and Dassault for the future fighter; and do similar competition for other main weapons systems, e.g., future main battle tank. Europe is not big enough to support so many independent vendors.
        Complete ********.

        If you do that you kill the other two bidders that don't get chosen and the corresponding skill set in the corresponding countries. Each of those firms should develop their design and compete to sell them to different countries. Anything else is pure communism.

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          #44
          Nice censorship btw

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            #45
            If you do that you kill the other two bidders that don't get chosen and the corresponding skill set in the corresponding countries.
            What countries?

            The UK is leaving the EU.

            Welcome to the United States of Europe.

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              #46
              Airbus -> Deutschland/Espaa, Dassault -> France, Saab -> Sverige.

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                #47
                Originally posted by Loke View Post
                What countries?

                The UK is leaving the EU.

                Welcome to the United States of Europe.
                It's about capability both financial and technical. UK is losing both as Trump implement American first.
                Dassault simply has wider market from Egypt to India to Qatar. These countries will have money but Saudis will have far less for follow-up order for UK and even that is shared with rest of EU consortium.

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                  #48
                  Spain cant invite France to join nothing because we dont have any (At least for now) program of an european fighter along with the germans. Frankly both the AF and the Navy are more interested in F-35 versions as replacements for the EF-18/Harrier II+ fleets.

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                    #49
                    Did the development of Typhoon AND Rafale mean that NATO is crumbling?

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                      #50
                      I feel sorry for anyone partnering with Germany on this plane. The Germans have a reputation for being very stubborn partners and don't hesitate to throw their weight around.

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                        #51
                        Originally posted by APRichelieu View Post
                        Did the development of Typhoon AND Rafale mean that NATO is crumbling?
                        Is NATO functioning as NATO?. Volga Denpr made alot money from from NATO countries that is consequences of
                        development of Rafale and Typhoon and it also contributed to failure in Libya when you look at over all force structure. more to come.

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                          #52
                          Originally posted by Nicolas10
                          If you do that you kill the other two bidders that don't get chosen and the corresponding skill set in the corresponding countries. Each of those firms should develop their design and compete to sell them to different countries. Anything else is pure communism.
                          I think LockMart & Boeing will approve of that idea. Use higher production volume to suppress the cost and beat the competition on price. Pure capitalism.

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                            #53
                            Originally posted by Ryan View Post
                            Airbus was never interested in Typhoon development work, it's one of the reasons it is where it is.
                            Nonsense, a great big chunk of what become the Eurofighter Typhoon was MBB's work.
                            sigpic

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                              #54
                              Originally posted by Bayar View Post
                              Germany and Spain invite France to join the Airbus program to develop a new successor for the Typhoon but reject the United Kingdom.

                              It explains why the UK has joined the TF-X program.
                              More like "Airbus" invites "France"... There's too much indefinition in Germany's MOD regarding this particular theme, so Airbus and the rest of the industry is doing their job, lobbying.

                              And the the UK didnt join the TF-X. BAE won an international tender for consulting work for TF-X, vastly different thing. Chances of any hardware coming out of TF-X (if any actually comes out) ending with RAF colours are almost nill.
                              sigpic

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                                #55
                                1. German AF:
                                * 85 Tornado --> Retirement: around 2030.
                                * 143 Eurofighter --> Retirement: post-2040.

                                2. Spanish AF and Navy:
                                * 71 EF-18A --> Retirement: around 2025 ~ 2030.
                                * 13 AV-8B --> Retirement: around 2025 ~ 2030.
                                * 73 Eurofighter --> Retirement: post-2040.

                                3. Royal AF:
                                * 30 EF-2000 Tranche 1 --> Retirement: around 2030
                                * 107 EF-2000 Tranche 2&3 --> Retirement: post-2040.

                                4. French AF and Navy:
                                * 125 Mirage 2000 series --> Retirement: 2018 ~ 2030, successor: Rafale F3, F3-O4T, and F4.
                                * 61 early productional Rafale B/C/M --> Retirement: 2030 ~ 2040.
                                * 164 late productional Rafale B/C/M --> Retirement: 2040 ~ 2060.

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                                  #56
                                  Originally posted by hopsalot View Post
                                  This is just wishful thinking. Fighter programs are devilishly expensive and slow moving. If France were to get serious about developing a new aircraft today they would be lucky to have it available in the early 2030s... at a cost of several tens of billions of dollars in development alone. Such a program could only happen in the context of a completely different fiscal/security environment. The same applies to the rest of Europe. Even if several of the bigger players pooled their resources a new project wouldn't come close to making sense.
                                  In Europe alone there are more than one thousand airframes that will need replacement in the thirties and fourties, its common sense to pool Europe's resources in order to develop and field that replacement.
                                  sigpic

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                                    #57
                                    1. German AF:
                                    * 85 Tornado --> Retirement: around 2030.
                                    * 143 Eurofighter --> Retirement: post-2040.

                                    2. Spanish AF and Navy:
                                    * 71 EF-18A --> Retirement: around 2025 ~ 2030.
                                    * 13 AV-8B --> Retirement: around 2025 ~ 2030.
                                    * 73 Eurofighter --> Retirement: post-2040.

                                    3. Royal AF:
                                    * 30 EF-2000 Tranche 1 --> Retirement: around 2030
                                    * 107 EF-2000 Tranche 2&3 --> Retirement: post-2040.

                                    4. French AF and Navy:
                                    * 125 Mirage 2000 series --> Retirement: 2018 ~ 2030, successor: Rafale F3, F3-O4T, and F4.
                                    * 61 early productional Rafale B/C/M --> Retirement: 2030 ~ 2040.
                                    * 164 late productional Rafale B/C/M --> Retirement: 2040 ~ 2060.

                                    5. ItAF"
                                    * 68 EF-2000 Tranche 2&3 --> Retirement: post-2040.

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                                      #58
                                      Originally posted by Vnomad View Post
                                      I think LockMart & Boeing will approve of that idea. Use higher production volume to suppress the cost and beat the competition on price. Pure capitalism.
                                      You are entirely correct. Lockheed and Boeing will be delighted if Europe doesnt get its act together.
                                      There's absolutely no reason why Europe cant emulate what it did in the missile, the comercial aircraft area, the helicopter and the space business. The market is there, the resources are there (for crying out loud, even in this "almost nill defense budget" times, Western Europe spends three times more than Russia!), the industry is there. Do an "MBDA" out of Dassault and Airbus, get some realistic KKP's, throw in 35 billion euros in R&D, wait till 2035 and serve the dam thing with white wine.
                                      What it cant happen is having three european xerox airframes that do the same bloody thing.
                                      sigpic

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                                        #59
                                        Consolidating fighter manufacturing is a noble vision but is it one that makes practical sense?

                                        As seen during ambitious initiatives over the past few years, such as on the pan-European Neuron unmanned combat air vehicle demonstrator and the Anglo-French future combat air system, manufacturers are willing and able to work together right up to the point where someone has to give up work to a foreign partner. Would Airbus sacrifice a Spanish final assembly line for a future type, or France export opportunities, for the greater good of the continent as a whole?

                                        Having the Rafale and Typhoon go head-to-head and in competition with Saabs single-engined Gripen in some cases is good for Europe, and for the industry champions in all those nations which want to retain vital skills and national control over their combat assets. One may triumph in Egyptian and Indian contests in part due to industrial heritage or geopolitical influence, while the other can win in Gulf states such as Kuwait and Saudi Arabia for the very same reasons. It is by no means certain that a combined entity would win both.
                                        Perhaps the Paris air show will offer an indication of Frances response to Alonsos call to join formation on future fighters. But with the Rafales production backlog currently stretching beyond that of the Typhoon, it would seem unlikely that it would decide to apply full afterburners just now.
                                        Read more: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/ar...ighter-438272/

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                                          #60
                                          Nonsense, a great big chunk of what become the Eurofighter Typhoon was MBB's work.
                                          I mean the actual development work post ISD, i.e. upgrades, which never got funding whilst 80% of the German air force remained inoperable. But yes they were responsible for the fuselage, with the landing gear that opens into the inner pylon store.

                                          And the the UK didnt join the TF-X. BAE won an international tender for consulting work for TF-X, vastly different thing. Chances of any hardware coming out of TF-X (if any actually comes out) ending with RAF colours are almost nill.
                                          That was the impression I got too, much more likely to go with Japan.

                                          You are entirely correct. Lockheed and Boeing will be delighted if Europe doesnt get its act together.
                                          There's absolutely no reason why Europe cant emulate what it did in the missile, the comercial aircraft area, the helicopter and the space business. The market is there, the resources are there (for crying out loud, even in this "almost nill defense budget" times, Western Europe spends three times more than Russia!), the industry is there. Do an "MBDA" out of Dassault and Airbus, get some realistic KKP's, throw in 35 billion euros in R&D, wait till 2035 and serve the dam thing with white wine.
                                          What it cant happen is having three european xerox airframes that do the same bloody thing.
                                          Sounds good in theory until they start arguing over which engine is the best etc. (And it was the EJ200 BTW, just in case anybody is still wondering.)
                                          Last edited by Ryan; 16th June 2017, 13:59.

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