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Airbus: European Future Fighter Program

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    France could afford a 5th gen if it wanted to. There is never a question to buy B1, B2, B21 & what not... we're just talking about a 5th gen fighter there. If you put the US budget in relation to the US population & French budget in relation to the french population... France should be able to buy way more than just 5th gen fighter.

    France is broke because it is run by traitors.

    But hey let's just ignore why we are broke and sabotage our ability to build fighter planes by partnering with our oldest enemies.

    Nic
    Last edited by Nicolas10; 14th November 2017, 21:57.

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      Wow. Nicholas10, this is a new level of paranoia even for you.

      I doubt you could find anyone in the UK that thinks of France as an enemy. I suppose your list of friends must be pretty short if you are going back centuries to define your enemies. What have you got Le Roi's diplomatic policy to work to?

      Which European country hasn't fought the French at some point?

      Bizarre.

      Anyway, you don't want to build a 5th generation fighter because other than the lack of stealth the Rafale does everything else to earn that title.


      Enemies?.... wow!
      Last edited by mrmalaya; 14th November 2017, 23:00.

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        I doubt you could find anyone in the UK that thinks of France as an enemy.
        ? Do you include Ukip supporters ?

        Anyway, you don't want to build a 5th generation fighter because other than the lack of stealth the Rafale does everything else to earn that title.
        WILL BE with F4 comm suite.

        Comment


          Enemies?.... wow!
          Wish it will give you my dear friends a sense of the terrible backlog in troubles we face today. And if things seems moving at a slow pace, they are not in anyway a sign of any inactivity. A tremendous dynamism reigns under the surface in order to spur that old horse forward.

          Good news is that "La pucelle d'Orleans" is alive and still have good hearing.
          Last edited by TomcatViP; 15th November 2017, 19:37.

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            Funny to see these EADS video game phantasies. Advertising an airframe for what? 2040? that is not more advanced than what is already operational today. Let's face it. EADS desperately needs a new major programme, otherwise the military aviation branch is out of business after A400M production ends. And the Luftwaffe people also hope to re-expand their business after being starved for a quarter of a century. These video game phantasies are primarily driven by European industry policy, not defense policy. There is ever less common ground in the question what the capabilities of the next European tactical aerial system should be than back in the 1990's when they decided to continue with EF2000. Defensive?
            Offensive? Or even power projecting beyond the European periphery to "protect" resource areas in far away brown lands? Penetrating? Stand-off? Etc. Someone mentioned "old enemies". That question is as legit these days as the question where Continental Europe stands between Anglo interests and Russian (and Chinese) interests. Things in Europe are way too much in a flux than to decide on a new manned fighter/destroyer now. Before such a system is initiated the political question of whether the Continental EU will really become its own entity and re-arm, or whether it remains a vassal of Anglo interests need to clarify. And I purposely use "need to clarify", and not "need to be clarified", since this question will not be decided in Europe. Maybe five years from now things are clearer ...
            "Distiller ... arrogant, ruthless, and by all reports (including his own) utterly charming"

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              The problem with EU is the clue less politicians. Since Trump tough with China. they bring usefulness of EU against China. not realizing that China importance will increase to EU.

              http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/16/politi...les/index.html
              Former British PM Tony Blair to Trump: Keep your allies with you
              That change, Blair believes, will be the emergence of China as the dominant global power.

              it already happening to Saudi who bought expensive weopons now have to import cheaper food.

              https://sputniknews.com/business/201...-saudi-arabia/
              https://www.globalmeatnews.com/Headl...ens-meat-trade


              how many compromises EU will have to make if they start building 5G fighter?. look at the speed of Galileo navigation project implementation.

              Comment


                PARIS (Reuters) - France will take the lead in the development of a next generation combat jet with Germany under an agreement the two governments signed on Tuesday, the French defense ministry said.

                The new combat jet is intended to replace from 2040 France’s Dassault Aviation (AVMD.PA) Rafales and Germany’s Eurofighters, made by a European consortium.
                https://www.reuters.com/article/us-g...-idUSKBN1JF2UJ

                Very interesting that Dassault will take the lead -- perhaps they have learned something from history...? If they can keep politics out of this then this fighter will become somthing quite impressive. If they can pick the best from French and German aviation industry.

                I am surprised that they intend to have the new fighter ready as late as 2040 though... I woul have expected a bit more overlap between Rafale/Typhoon and the new fighter.


                Now, what will Sweden do? And what options will the UK have, after Brexit?


                Interesting times.

                Edit: another article on this, with a few extra details: http://www.defenseworld.net/news/227...0#.WyoGZvZuIic
                Last edited by Loke; 20th June 2018, 08:48.

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                  I hope the French and Dassault are not expecting Germany to pay for anything. If so, it will languish like Typhoon development.

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                    I hope the French and Dassault are not expecting Germany to pay for anything. If so, it will languish like Typhoon development.
                    Trumps behavior may start to change how Germany looks at defence... I think there is a slow change in Germany regarding this. The US has long pushed for all NATO countries to spend 2% of GDP on defence. Germany is far from that but the pressure is increasing. Something got to give in the end.


                    On verra.

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                      Rafale F4 in 2025 and possible super Typhoon for Germany in the mid 2020's means that there will be some overlap. New airframes will be built in the mid/late 20's, at least for the rafale.

                      The positive thing is that by then there will be a good feedback from exercises with so called 5 gen fighters to develop this new aircraft. It sometimes more confortable/less expensive/more efficient to come a bit later having seen errors from others. certainly F35 will be a benchmark to beat.

                      Germany has the lead for the future MBT.
                      Last edited by eagle1; 20th June 2018, 11:21.

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                        because that's absolutely the path the EU industry has shown us in the past 20y: from the A400, Tiger, NH90 to the Rafale, everything has been cheaper and inherited from being late superior capabilities not even fielded 20 years before… Hoo-Ha
                        Last edited by TomcatViP; 20th June 2018, 11:27.

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                          Originally posted by TomcatViP View Post
                          because that's absolutely the path the EU industry has shown us in the past 20y: from the A400, Tiger, NH90 to the Rafale, everything has been cheaper and inherited from being late superior capabilities not even fielded 20 years before Hoo-Ha
                          Because the competion has been, oh, so much better....
                          Programs like the ATF, JSF, KCX, LCS, DDG1000 have been such an outstanding sucess, on time and on budget, dont they?
                          And whats your proposal? Shutting down the military branches of Dassault and Airbus, while buying American, correct?
                          For someone supposedly French (am I correct?) I cant fail to noticed some very biased opinions AGAINST French and European programs...
                          sigpic

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by djcross View Post
                            I hope the French and Dassault are not expecting Germany to pay for anything. If so, it will languish like Typhoon development.
                            Last time i've checked Germany has been paying every single cent that it signed in contracts with the Industry.
                            sigpic

                            Comment


                              Portraying. This is exactly the reproach I have to this way of managing a mil program and your way of characterizing my opinion.
                              Where are the services RFI, RFPs?
                              Where is the competition that nurture new aggressive way to search for innovations, performance and ensure efficiency?
                              Where is the epicenter of decision now?


                              I will tell you, At the age of the much vaunted IA, there is not much more in program management here than what leads the misoginist view on Women: blondes are idiots and red hair whores (replace in context with your own choice of national industry)...


                              Great debates inbound. Colorful pictorial future for our program elites, let the circus and the money burning start over (again)!
                              Last edited by TomcatViP; 20th June 2018, 14:39.

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                                I love the idea of Air and Couscous! Where do I subscribe?
                                Nickname of Air & Cosmos on forum Air Defense.

                                Comment


                                  Where are the services RFI, RFPs?
                                  On the exact same place that the USAF, VVS, PLAAF, or any other country with enough budget and national design and production capability, deliver them, with their national defense industry...

                                  Where is the competition that nurture new aggressive way to search for innovations, performance and ensure efficiency?
                                  OH, please describe me the massive competition that we have in places like Russia, China and so on, for aerospace combat capabiliy... Even the US with its absolutely massive military budget can only maintain two and a half national design teams in house.
                                  Where you expecting that France could maintain two or three diferent companies capable of designing and producing cutting edge military aerospace with THAT kind of budget?! Or let me guess, you were expecting that the Adla/MN would open a competition to LM for their next fast jet capability?

                                  Where is the epicenter of decision now?
                                  Exactly where it should be, in the German and French MODs...

                                  let the circus and the money burning start over
                                  Thats rich! Do i have to remind you of every post that youve posted in this forum drooling about that, oh so much efficient program called the JSF?!

                                  There are three basic options for the French/Germans (and British, Italians, Spanish, Swedes) for the replacement of their air combat capability, a) increase their defense budget and go national (the only ones who can go that route with ease are "Ze Germans"), b) pool their resources (what the Germans and French are doing) or c) buy American. I have absolutely no doubts on your favorite option...
                                  sigpic

                                  Comment


                                    My dear Sintra, it might be that you need some rest. Simply.
                                    - stop here portraying me and being pejorative.
                                    -The D in MoD means Defense where the administration interface b/w the gov and their army. When Generals are sanctioned when do their jobs by voicing their professional preference, this is not a sane, rationale (and cost efficient) situation. I'll point you toward Belgium also. So, no, the epicenter is not where it should be.
                                    - building the wrong plane won't solve anything and the state of the industry will be as dire in effect as you portray it if Germany and Belgium would choose to buy the Panther. See Ariane 6 (I voiced my opinion on this too).



                                    Thanks
                                    Last edited by TomcatViP; 20th June 2018, 23:45.

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                                      @Loke

                                      Trumps behavior may start to change how Germany looks at defence... I think there is a slow change in Germany regarding this. The US has long pushed for all NATO countries to spend 2% of GDP on defence. Germany is far from that but the pressure is increasing. Something got to give in the end.
                                      The whole 2% idea is just a number from US directed Nato think tanks. An arbitrary percentage is stupid. Germany could have 6 CVN carriers if they spent 2%.

                                      Europe is making a Euro army and defense network not to meet Trumps demands but to eventually sever this US hegemonic control over Europe.

                                      Comment


                                        It is criminal that Holland or any of these Euro countries are buying F-35's when the French have the capability of building world class aircraft right in the heart of Europe. ||The continent is should put their money together and get France to build a 5th gen Euro fighter

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