Register Free

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Airbus: European Future Fighter Program

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    #21


    https://www.aerosociety.com/news/air...ept-for-2040s/

    Comment


      #22
      The only way to make anything correctly and competitive is to choose nations who partner on the program, and send an RFP to different european manufacturers.. with firm requirements and a neutral way to estimate the compliance (if you just say everybody vote as you feel, you'll have every nation choosing the one that gives them the most work, despite it being more or les appropriate.. that's european politics). once a design has been chosen, they participate and pay for the development made by the winning bidder and that's it... forget about making several production facilities that'll negate any economy of scale...
      Agree to the basic principle -- however it is highly unlikely this will happen.

      European defence industry should consolidate. They should arrange a 3-way competition between Airbus, Saab and Dassault for the future fighter; and do similar competition for other main weapons systems, e.g., future main battle tank. Europe is not big enough to support so many independent vendors.

      Comment


        #23
        Loke,

        Does a Gripen NG replacemtn look like a Rafale/Typhoon replacement?

        I still think Sweden will have enough market share to stay out of a future euro monster.

        Bayar, no disrespect intended, but I have yet to see detailed coverage of the TFX deal in a UK context and don't really see how it will generate technology (other than engine perhaps) that wouldn't come out of Typhoon upgrades and FCAS with France.

        Comment


          #24
          Germany and Spain invite France to join the Airbus program to develop a new successor for the Typhoon but reject the United Kingdom.
          I think it means we rejected them after the absolute farce Typhoon turned into.

          They could do like the UK and team up with a country outside of EU; e.g. India and their AMCA.
          Are they already teamed up with the UK on FCAS?

          Germany and Spain clearly need more partners.
          Surely the millions of brilliant minds they've brought in from Syria and Iraq will be all they need.

          I sometimes wonder if the UK-Japanese program makes sense. What will the requirements be? They will both have the f-35, so building a strike fighter doesn't make much sense. Maybe Japan will want a PCA type design, but the UK will already have something like that from their FCAS.
          More air-superiority-orientated fighter to replace Typhoon/F-2. So logically:

          Harrier -> F-35B
          Tornado -> FCAS
          Typhoon -> UK/Japan fighter

          The BAE-Turkey thing, seems more like BAE acting as consultants for the design rather than a partner development. Bit like with the Polish tank.

          Mrmalaya, there is some NATO technology that BAE systems cannot share with Japan.
          Not sure how relevant that will be but not a big problem. Where it isn't possible, those systems will have different software loads across the UK and Japanese version.
          Last edited by Ryan; 15th June 2017, 12:02.

          Comment


            #25
            Ryan,

            FCAS isn't being developed as a Tornado replacement (which would mean it was a Rafale replacement in turn). It looks very much as if FCAS is being developed to support non stealthy aircraft which have a greater weapons carriage capacity. In UK terms, the only thing Tornado does that is unique is Storm Shadow (soon to be seen on Typhoon) and RAPTOR pod (Protector to replace?).

            Tornado will be long dead by the time an operational FCAS trial is undertaken.
            Last edited by mrmalaya; 15th June 2017, 12:05.

            Comment


              #26
              Well my view was a bit simplified but one use of FCAS will be for interdiction, which has historically been a Tornado role but there is definitely some overlap in historic roles, e.g. F-35B will do some Tornado work.

              https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...iction&f=false

              http://www.airforce-technology.com/f...ahead-4893221/

              FCAS is the most ambitious programme of its kind in Europe. Two national designs, one French and one British, will be developed, followed by a design that will be taken forward jointly. The end result should be a UCAS capability that can perform sustained surveillance, target designation, intelligence gathering and strike missions in hostile territories.
              Last edited by Ryan; 15th June 2017, 12:13.

              Comment


                #27
                The main point about Airbus asking Dassault to partner is that they are running out of fast jet work. Once Typhoon production stops what upgrades are they looking at? I know they have had in house uav design work but again, what has that achieved?

                Comment


                  #28
                  @ Loke


                  Oh, I never said it was likely to happen, only that it would be the only sensible thing to do if one wants to have a relatively affordable fighter.. doing it as they want (choose a manufacturer without any competition and then, let it do the development as they can while pulling whatever production the nations can to themselves) is the perfect way to pay as much as if they developed it all alone, for a lesser product in the end..

                  When I see that proposal, I can only say that France is way better off staying alone... in the end it won't cost them more, but they'll have the product that really does suit their needs and they'll have their industry work guaranteed

                  Comment


                    #29
                    Europe has the technology base to design a 5th generation fighter, but utterly lacks the political will to override the various national parochial interests.

                    You are never going to get a project off the ground if everyone wants to contribute 20% of the development funding, while getting 40% of the work share, and buying maybe 10% of the aircraft. (all while hording sensitive technology and protecting key national industries...)

                    To make matters worse, most of the major players are already struggling to support their 4th generation programs. Where is the money for an all-new program going to come from?

                    Comment


                      #30
                      finding money is a matter of political will.. it depends on what you choose to finance.. but you're right on one thing, in general: there's no political will in Europe.. most politicians are obsessed with their reelection so they manage things for immediately visible benefits (workshare they get, for example) and completely disregarding the long term issues

                      Comment


                        #31
                        The main point about Airbus asking Dassault to partner is that they are running out of fast jet work. Once Typhoon production stops what upgrades are they looking at? I know they have had in house uav design work but again, what has that achieved?
                        Airbus was never interested in Typhoon development work, it's one of the reasons it is where it is.

                        Which UAV are you talking about? Taranis learning will become part of FCAS development.

                        Comment


                          #32
                          Oh, I never said it was likely to happen, only that it would be the only sensible thing to do if one wants to have a relatively affordable fighter.. doing it as they want (choose a manufacturer without any competition and then, let do while pulling whatever production they can to themselves) is the perfect way to pay as much as if they developed it all alone, for a lesser product in the end..

                          When I see that proposal, I can only say that France is way better off staying alone... in the end it won't cost them more, but they'll have the product that really does suit their needs and they'll have their industry work guaranteed
                          That is what France will say it is doing... but in reality what it will do is... not much. France hasn't even been able to fund procurement of its previous fighter... it was buying only a handful per year before exports allowed them to cut even that. Now you expect them to undertake an entirely new program?

                          Comment


                            #33
                            I don't expect.. they will do it.

                            The public doesn't like spending too much on weapons, but they like even less the idea of depending on the americans (for different reasons that are OT here), what's more, while they did not buy many rafales (the idea being to reduce annual costs but also to keep the line busy for as long as possible) the kept investing in research and development of new technologies around it...

                            Basically, the investment is there (maybe not as much as one would like, but it is there, unlike "some other aircraft" who had all the trouble in the world keeping its development running as different partners dragged their feet all the time )

                            Comment


                              #34
                              Ryan,

                              There is a difference between the German government not wanting Typhoon and the manufacturers not wanting to develop it. Airbus has had as much to do with Typhoon development up to this point as BAE. It could be argued that BAE is looking at more future Typhoon work because the RAF is totally committed to Typhoon, but again BAE is not the only manufacturer that will benefit from upgrades to Typhoon through to 2040.

                              Airbus has both Barracuda: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EADS_Barracuda
                              Click image for larger version

Name:	1760247.jpg
Views:	2
Size:	238.9 KB
ID:	3675064

                              and Sagitta to it's name: http://www.airbusgroup.com/int/en/ne...idian_uas.html
                              Click image for larger version

Name:	sagitta-1680.2017-03-21-12-47-30.jpg
Views:	1
Size:	454.1 KB
ID:	3675065

                              Comment


                                #35
                                Originally posted by TooCool_12f
                                I don't expect.. they will do it.

                                The public doesn't like spending too much on weapons, but they like even less the idea of depending on the americans (for different reasons that are OT here), what's more, while they did not buy many rafales (the idea being to reduce annual costs but also to keep the line busy for as long as possible) the kept investing in research and development of new technologies around it...

                                Basically, the investment is there (maybe not as much as one would like, but it is there, unlike "some other aircraft" who had all the trouble in the world keeping its development running as different partners dragged their feet all the time )
                                This is just wishful thinking. Fighter programs are devilishly expensive and slow moving. If France were to get serious about developing a new aircraft today they would be lucky to have it available in the early 2030s... at a cost of several tens of billions of dollars in development alone. Such a program could only happen in the context of a completely different fiscal/security environment. The same applies to the rest of Europe. Even if several of the bigger players pooled their resources a new project wouldn't come close to making sense.

                                Comment


                                  #36
                                  Basically, the investment is there (maybe not as much as one would like, but it is there, unlike "some other aircraft" who had all the trouble in the world keeping its development running as different partners dragged their feet all the time )
                                  Those partners are now France's partners in this Airbus thing though.

                                  Comment


                                    #37
                                    There is a difference between the German government not wanting Typhoon and the manufacturers not wanting to develop it. Airbus has had as much to do with Typhoon development up to this point as BAE. It could be argued that BAE is looking at more future Typhoon work because the RAF is totally committed to Typhoon, but again BAE is not the only manufacturer that will benefit from upgrades to Typhoon through to 2040.
                                    Not fundamentally. The money comes from the government, so if the government drags their heels, what the manufacturer wants to do makes no odds. And if Germany didn't want the Typhoon, WTF did they join the project? Doesn't really inspire one with confidence does it? Maybe they'll end up not wanting this Airbus fighter either.

                                    This is just wishful thinking. Fighter programs are devilishly expensive and slow moving. If France were to get serious about developing a new aircraft today they would be lucky to have it available in the early 2030s... at a cost of several tens of billions of dollars in development alone. Such a program could only happen in the context of a completely different fiscal/security environment. The same applies to the rest of Europe. Even if several of the bigger players pooled their resources a new project wouldn't come close to making sense.
                                    I don't know about that, but Spain is definitely a weak link economically.
                                    Last edited by Ryan; 15th June 2017, 13:56.

                                    Comment


                                      #38
                                      The Spanish economy is now growing at rates that Germany, France & Italy can only dream about.
                                      Juris praecepta sunt haec: honeste vivere, alterum non laedere, suum cuique tribuere.
                                      Justinian

                                      Comment


                                        #39
                                        I imagine European politicians might very well be willing to fund a fifth generation fighter. The only reason countries like Germany and Spain are promoting a fifth generation fighter is to keep domestic defense industry workers employed. There is no chance that such a weapon system would exceed whatever "block 5" or "block 6" F-35 it would be competing with.

                                        European countries spend tremendous amounts of money to keep domestic workers employed. It is amazing how many different weapons systems Italy produces. For example, Italy produces its own attack choppers although the export sales record and likely combat capability is demonstrably inferior to the US Apaches.

                                        European countries like Germany, France and Spain probably fund development of prestige programs like fighter aircraft development because they get plenty of attention from voters and support already existing companies and workers. From the viewpoint of NATO and the defense of Europe against Russia, these aircraft will provide little capability over "block 5" or "block 6" F-35s, which will have a budget for new avionics and weapons dwarfing anything in Europe. Oh yeah, the B-21 will have more capabilities lacking in non-Russian Europe and penetrating counter air (PCA) will be unique outside of maybe China, although who knows at that program just getting started.

                                        Shipbuilding is another issue. Every European country funds a domestic military shipbuilding industry to keep workers employed. Because of the parochial approach, the total effectiveness of all NATO navies other than the US Navy is far less than the US Navy.

                                        What Europe should unite to fund and will not are things like logistics capabilities, electronic warfare capabilities and additional armored brigades to fight a land war in eastern Europe. I doubt Germany has the capability of moving its poorly trained mechanized infantry brigades to Poland or the Baltics during a crisis and I imagine they will be underfunded in terms of fuel, ammunition, training, air defense, artillery and overall combat capability compared to Russian maneuver units of equivalent size once they get there. If Germany has issues actually fighting a war with Russia, Italy and Spain will be far worse. A small country like Belgium actually divested all its tanks so they would be right out in a land war.
                                        Last edited by mil; 15th June 2017, 17:06.

                                        Comment


                                          #40
                                          The Spanish economy is now growing at rates that Germany, France & Italy can only dream about.
                                          The kind of GDP Spain is creating is simply not conductive for industrial project like 5G fighter.

                                          http://www.citymetric.com/business/m...me-airbnb-3048

                                          Comment


                                           

                                          Working...
                                          X