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Airbus: European Future Fighter Program

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    I don't think Australia had issues with buying American spares and their fleet was pretty small.
    Germany's Tornado fleet of 85, with most likely inoperable on any given day, is moderately sized.

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      Here is a German language article mentioning the maintenance issues with German Tornadoes. Quoting Google Translate:

      According to a report by the Ministry of Defense on the state of the main weapon systems, the tornadoes 66, which were acquired by 93, are in operation, of which only 29 are ready. This is even less so than the corresponding investigation a year ago; At that time, there were still 38 jets available.
      http://www.zeit.de/politik/2015-12/b...rnados-maengel

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        Originally posted by xman
        Anyway , Nowhere is purchasing Rafale a pre-requisite . Rather an opportunity to get date alignement while preserving in-house competence and investing toward the future with short term immediate benefit . And yes while this is not likely to happen, that does not make it irrational.

        As for Eurofighter , sorry but in communication or action neither Airbus ( with the NWGS for tornado replacement ) nor the German show any signs leading to beleive Eurofighter is seen as a valid alternative for Tornado replacement.
        Has there been the slightest communication or action or any signs leading one to believe that the Germans see the Rafale "as a valid alternative for Tornado replacement"?

        If the preferred F-35 proposal falls through, then the GAF will either downsize or induct more EFs. That's just plain commonsense. Wishful thinking shouldn't blind one to the obvious.

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          Here is sobering report from January 2017 by the German Parliamentary Commissioner for the Armed Forces about the poor state of the German armed forces. And it is in English!

          https://www.bundestag.de/blob/501800...eport-data.pdf

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            Isnt that French STX shipyard nationalized to keep it away from Italian hands. It mean French are going to keep independent exports and will likely use German money to develop further. French already moving against Italians in Libya.
            I am sure there will be pressure coming up on Germany to give up Eurofighter.

            https://www.thecipherbrief.com/germa...al-uncertainty
            In a sign of things to come, Paris and Berlin have already agreed to a cooperation framework for the next model of the Airbus Tiger attack helicopter and for tactical air-to-ground missiles, in addition to trying to coordinate on procuring heavy tanks and artillery.
            From a French perspective, they want to harness that [increased German defense spending] as something that benefits both countries, said Rathke.

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              Isnt that French STX shipyard nationalized to keep it away from Italian hands. It mean French are going to keep independent exports and will likely use German money to develop further. French already moving against Italians in Libya.
              I am sure there will be pressure coming up on Germany to give up Eurofighter.
              Yes and No. Needed more insurance about possible tech transfer to China. The idea is probably to merge DCNS and STX then to have a joint venture with Fincantieri. But i am only guessing. More on topic, noone noticed that EF is atm puushed against F-35 in Belgium?
              Last edited by halloweene; 22nd August 2017, 12:27.

              Comment


                Here is a German language article mentioning the maintenance issues with German Tornadoes. Quoting Google Translate:

                "According to a report by the Ministry of Defense on the state of the main weapon systems, the tornadoes 66, which were acquired by 93, are in operation, of which only 29 are ready. This is even less so than the corresponding investigation a year ago; At that time, there were still 38 jets available."
                http://www.zeit.de/politik/2015-12/b...rnados-maengel
                Too little defence spending even to maintain the equipment they have.

                P.S. That report is dated 02 Dec 2015.
                Last edited by swerve; 22nd August 2017, 10:54.
                Juris praecepta sunt haec: honeste vivere, alterum non laedere, suum cuique tribuere.
                Justinian

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                  Needed more insurance about possible tech transfer to China
                  The Financial Time:

                  French officials have insisted that there is no ill will against Italy but that the previous deal was not strong enough in terms of protecting employment levels and preventing technology transfers to China. But Italian officials have rejected the notion that their bid was weak in those areas. The suspicion in Rome is that Paris is looking for excuses to engineer a nationalisation for domestic political purposes. According to a poll by Ifop released on Sunday, 70 per cent of the French back Mr Macron’s decision on STX.
                  How do you say plastic excuse in the Navy?
                  Let's be realistic, France does what it wants and there are no more valid motivations than Industrial or strategic thinking to prevent the loss of an Industrial asset like STX. However, finger pointing your neighbors claiming that one has moles in his backyard sound a little bit... weird.
                  There was plenty of valid excuses like putting the blame on the precedent administration, especially when this hasn't enjoy much sympathy across Europe, to say the least*.
                  Source:
                  https://www.ft.com/content/70611f68-...c9691?mhq5j=e1

                  *you should hear some of them mocking the new administration for its supposed lack of experience, claiming the apparent fall of the Fr political will... When some are the very same that were appealed by the end of History (their claim) after the fall of the Berlin wall.
                  Last edited by TomcatViP; 22nd August 2017, 14:50.

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                    Surely, if you are the Germans, you look at what other Tornado operators are doing with regard to its replacement?

                    In the UK, the F35 is categorically not the Tornado replacement, the Typhoon is. Tornado unique capabilities were RAPTOR pod (not being directly replaced),PWIV (Typhoon), Brimstone (Typhoon), Stormshadow (Typhoon) .

                    The F35 is not the obvious Tornado replacement if you like your Typhoons.

                    The fact is that for now, the F35 cannot carry European IR missiles internally, cannot carry Stormshadow or Taurus internally and cannot carry as many weapons as the competition if you wish to make the most of its stealth.

                    If you don't want to use it for stealth purposes, then why buy the F35 other than to drop a nuke?
                    Last edited by mrmalaya; 22nd August 2017, 13:00.

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                      How many PWIVs, Brimstones and Storm Shadows does Typhoon carry internally? Or Tornado?

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                        Originally posted by mrmalaya
                        Surely, if you are the Germans, you look at what other Tornado operators are doing with regard to its replacement?

                        In the UK, the F35 is categorically not the Tornado replacement, the Typhoon is. Tornado unique capabilities were RAPTOR pod (not being directly replaced),PWIV (Typhoon), Brimstone (Typhoon), Stormshadow (Typhoon) .
                        The Paveway IV and ASRAAM are part of the Block 3F release, which will be released to the fleet by the end of the year. The SPEAR III has been designed for internal carriage on the F-35. And while a decision on the Storm Shadow hasn't officially been taken yet - its very likely to be sanctioned (the QEs can't embark Typhoons).

                        The fact is that for now, the F35 cannot carry European IR missiles internally, cannot carry Stormshadow or Taurus internally and cannot carry as many weapons as the competition if you wish to make the most of its stealth.
                        Doesn't need to carry IR missiles internally. Can carry munitions externally, expend them, jettison the hardpoints, and revert to an LO configuration in-flight.

                        If you don't want to use it for stealth purposes, then why buy the F35 other than to drop a nuke?
                        I would have thought that's pretty obvious. Its the best strike fighter available in the West - and no Eurocanard can offer a similar capability.

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                          Let's be realistic, France does what it wants and there are no more valid motivations than Industrial or strategic thinking to prevent the loss of an Industrial asset like STX
                          You know that STX was a property of Koreans, do you? And that Fincantieri DO have a deal about large ships with chinese involving tech transfer?

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by xman View Post
                            In my opinion , Germany and Airbus priorities are less about the airframe itself than gaining access to the French experience with European standard communication and network centric capability and systems which they deployed for their Ground and sea forces and which they are about to deploy via Rafale standard F4 for Air forces as well. A key enabler toward collaborative asset deployment and the potential backbone for a European defense system .
                            "European standard communication and network centric capability"?

                            Both the French Navy and Army use NATO standards, protocols and systems, or in other words, they use L16, L22, Rover and so on, American standards, protocols and systems.
                            sigpic

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                              You know that STX was a property of Koreans, do you? And that Fincantieri DO have a deal about large ships with chinese involving tech transfer?
                              That has nothing to do with STX. If tomorrow you or me buy a US based firm and have ongoing contract for ToT with a tiers, we would still be obliged with what was negotiated at the time with the US gov.
                              This is not the 13th century, conquer and havoc. Italians are liable to their obligations and it should have required more than words to break such a contract.
                              But again, as emphasized, the decision is popular*. Still it will put a stain on future negotiation. EoA

                              *Wouldn't have been more appropriate to cancel the creation of an RT news channel?
                              Last edited by TomcatViP; 22nd August 2017, 14:52.

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                                I think it's disingenuous to suggest that carrying your short range missile AA on external pylons and ejecting them when used is a great way to use an aircraft that is designed not to be seen from range.

                                I also think SPEAR III is a great weapon for the F35 and am not knocking the aircraft, just pointing out that it is not in fact the Tornado replacement aircraft in the UK or of choice at the moment. If you have several hundred miles of range on your cruise missile, then a stealth aircraft is not a priority is it? I would be very surprised if the RAF gets funding to put Stormshadow underwing of the F35s in the next several years.

                                Comment


                                  Originally posted by mil View Post
                                  Here is a German language article mentioning the maintenance issues with German Tornadoes. Quoting Google Translate:



                                  http://www.zeit.de/politik/2015-12/b...rnados-maengel
                                  Thats the problem with generalistic newspapers, those numbers are actually pretty good.

                                  Taking into acount that there's only one single Luftwaffe tactical wing equiped with Tornado's, having between 29 and 38 airframes operational at any given time it means an excelent operational capability for the 33 TFW. A Luftwaffe TFW usually field around 35 airframes.
                                  Last edited by Sintra; 22nd August 2017, 13:58.
                                  sigpic

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                                    So did you say that French trust more Koreans than us?
                                    Because you know, this constatation has made even our usually prudent or better say timid governement rabid with rage, let's image us people in the street that already start from the default position fo considering French the most unbearable people of the whole universe and beyond...

                                    Said so, Italy have acquired F-35A as a direct replacement of Tornado so mmrmalaya reasonement just doesn't stand.
                                    In any case we will still carry Storm Shadow on Typhoons and would keep the Tornado SEAD in service so to use the AARGM we have developed together with USN.
                                    So there are several way to skin a cat, it depend from what are your own requirement and operational doctrines.

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                                      So did you say that French trust more Koreans than us?
                                      Nor really, but. Italian Gov is the owner of Fincantieri. French Gov. Proposed a 50/50 agreement. Unions were afraid that (i) in case of crisis, Ficnantieri would favour italian yards. (ii) That tech would go to china through agreements Fincantieri has with agreements with chinese. (iii) STX is the only yard left in France able to build our future carrier...
                                      Expect soon a "naval airbus" to come in Europe.

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                                        Has there been the slightest communication or action or any signs leading one to believe that the Germans see the Rafale "as a valid alternative for Tornado replacement"?
                                        Absolutely not
                                        sigpic

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                                          S400 also have ranges of several hundred of miles.

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