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Rafale 2017-2

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    BIO I think your remark considering F22+B2 cost is very disingenuous. The Rafale program should be compared to the F22 + F35 cost & then brought back to the scale of the country, since the Rafale takes the role of both (+the SH+a couple others).

    While the B2 is expensive, the program cost quoted by wiki is 45 bn dollars (pretty much the cost of the Rafale programme more or less), which is peanuts compared to the F35 cost.



      I wasn't really trying to actually compare it to the F-22+B2 just trying to emphasize of what a >$50 Billion program looks from the French MOD's spending perspective given their overall budget top line.

      As a reference, the F-22 program including the engine, all the integration work and the acquisition (not increment 3++++) was $69 or so Billion for what it turned out to be just over 180 aircraft. The JSF program is projected as a sub $400 Billion program including MILCON across the US services and the projected procurement of 2400+ aircraft etc.

      To be precise, the intention was to stay relative to the overall defense budgets.
      Last edited by bring_it_on; 5th September 2017, 19:25.
      Old radar types never die; they just phased array


        Indeed, but adding F22 + F35 divided by budget would be more telling than adding F22 + B2 divided by budget. Rafale is the only combat plane of the French forces (if we can still call them french) while the F22 + B2 would represent only a fraction of the US forces. Not a fair comparison IMHO.



          Indeed, but adding F22 + F35 divided by budget would be more telling than adding F22 + B2 divided by budget. Rafale is the only combat plane of the French forces (if we can still call them french)
          Again, that is besides the point. The point was that for its budget, the French MOD spent a very large amount on the program to acquire the inventory it has (200?). There is obviously a good explanation for this and Halloween provided it - It simply being the cost of the strategic independence. Still, what I wanted to get a better understanding of was the actual contract vehicle and a tallying up of the program spend and a more detailed accounting of the program. I'm sure if I spent a lot of time I could find something on defense-aerospace, assuming that they cover domestic systems with the same amount of rigor as they cover international systems.

          Any comparison (F-22 vs Rafale, or F-22+F-35 vs Rafale or F-22+F-35+F-18E/F/+ EA/18G vs Rafale) is tricky because the F-35/JSF is a US DOD wide program and not one managed by each US service. There is no real way for me to remove the RDT&E, procurement, and MILCON cost attributed to the STOVL variant and its purchase by the USMC.
          Last edited by bring_it_on; 5th September 2017, 19:39.
          Old radar types never die; they just phased array


            Strategic forces consumes 30% of the total procurement budget in 2017...

            Years ago, I asked myself the same question on a public forum dedicated to the Rafale (a very famous one among Fr blogger). The end result was that the cost of the Rafale per taxpayer top that of the F22 + F35 buy in the US by a non-negligible margin that can however be attributed to French aspiration of having a self sustained industry (even if that is not absolutely correct when you start digging in the network of subcontractor and IP losses during the years). The drawback (aside of the enormous sink in budget capabilities) is the absence of stealth.
            Last edited by TomcatViP; 5th September 2017, 22:36.


              Well that's a testament for french state being broke more than anything else... that's what happens when cryptocommunists are running the show for over 60 years.


                Fact is that the Rafale is for the french what the F-22, F-35, B2, B1, B52, F-16, F-15, F-18 are for the US all put together... and even if you exclude heavy bombers (which would mean you exclude strategic bombers which the Rafale is for the french), the cost comparison would be more exact that way... The Rafale is an air force aircraft and navy aircraft, interceptor, bomber, reconnaissance aircraft, air superiority fighter, and so on.. it fulfills all these roles, and comparing it to only two of the american assets is, by definition, flawed


                  Very interesting info on this Rafale blog on the Indian and likely India specified weapons that will be integrated on the Rafale.

                  Includes Python 5, Astra Mk2, Brahmos NG and the Spice 250,1000 and 2000.

                  Rafale news blog- weapons integrated and planned to be integrated


                    Meteor trials are done (and succesful, includin retargeting a missile after shooting)

                    F-18 and Rafale in slow motion at Sion and frecce tricolori


                    Expect 12 to 24 Rafale sales during next two days (while Sissi is in Paris). Last hurdle : financial warranty from COFACE (public insurance for weapon exports in France)
                    Last edited by halloweene; 24th October 2017, 19:31.


                      Carrier trapping at night (Rafale) - Full HUD

                      Don't know if this has been posted before.


                        Bulgaria’s ‘pilot president’ Radev flies Rafale fighter during visit to France

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                        A skilled fighter pilot, Radev was commander of the Bulgarian Air Force before resigning to stand in the 2016 presidential elections. He took office as head of state and, as such, commander-in-chief of the armed forces in January 2017.

                        He was accompanied on the December 6 flight by Captain Jean-Guillaume Martinez, the Bulgarian President’s office said.


                          A video that sharply reminds this is not a sport for all , certainly not for me. Driving a car at night in heavy rains with poor lights and incoming traffic with beams on is almost a walk in the park in comparison. Hats off to the navy pilots.


                            Accrding to La Tribune, 12 more Rafale for Qatar tomorrow (it was an option)


                              Le Qatar a lev loption sur les douze Rafale, dun montant estim 1,1 milliard deuros, accompagnant les vingt-quatre commands en avril 2015. Il vient de prendre une autre option pour 36 avions de combat.
                              En savoir plus sur

                              Quatar has just signed for 12 more rafale firm + an option for 36 more. Question is whether this new option for 36 more rafales is on top or in replacement of the Typhoon deal that was to be signed...Or to gain more negociations leverage in case they can not have the deal they want.

                              Around 92M per aircraft but then we don't no what is included.
                              Last edited by eagle1; 7th December 2017, 10:56.


                                . Les appareils seront modifis par rapport aux Rafale franais. Ils n’auront pas de module nuclaire, ni ne bnficieront des liaisons de communication Otan. En revanche, ils seront quips du pod Sniper de l’amricain Lockheed Martin, un capteur optique et laser qui permet de mettre en œuvre les bombes guidage laser.


                                The airframe will be modified compared to the French Rafale. They will not have any nuclear module, nor will they benefit from NATO communication datalinks. On the other hand, they will be equipped with the Sniper pod of the American Lockheed Martin, an optical and laser sensor that makes it possible to use laser guided bombs.
                                No nuclear tech/no NATO Datalink / LM Sniper pod

                                Source (as above):
                                Last edited by TomcatViP; 7th December 2017, 11:02.


                                  And Targo HMS (already integrated)... Nuclear module might have interested the Indians on a side note.


                                    A video that sharply reminds this is not a sport for all , certainly not for me. Driving a car at night in heavy rains with poor lights and incoming traffic with beams on is almost a walk in the park in comparison. Hats off to the navy pilots.
                                    it's sure that flying from a carrier isn't easy, and even more than that by night.. however, one should remember that a camera has much less dynamic (span between the lightest and darkest thing it can record at the same time) than the human eye, so, while you only see black background as it's too dark for the camera that records also the light of the HUD symbols), the pilot does see the carrier lights (and quite well wince there's no other lights around in the darkness of the night).

                                    Anyway, nice to see video , thanks TomcatViP


                                      Qatar's Rafale deals:


                                      1st deal (2016/03/30): 7.5 billion USD.

                                      a. 24 Rafale F3-O4Ts (18 Rafale C and 6 Rafale B).

                                      b. Training for 36 Qatari pilots and some 100 mechanics.

                                      c. Weapons:
                                      * AM39 Block2 Mod 2 ASM *60
                                      * SCALP-EG cruise missile * 140
                                      * AASM * 300
                                      * MICA AAM * 300
                                      * Meteor BVRAAM * 160


                                      2nd deal (2017/12/07): 1.3 billion USD for 12 more Rafale.


                                        Do we have any idea on what the ratio is on single versus two seaters for the new Qatar order?


                                          Parrikar on the Indian Rafale:

                                          Explaining the price quotient, Parrikar said, A fighter aircraft is not only (an) aircraft. (The) aircraft is probably smaller part of the total cost the real cost comes in special equipment. How many of you know that this particular deal (includes) a helmet to be worn by the pilot where a target (gets) locked by just watching the target. It is virtually 360-degree visibility. The pilot doesnt have to actually check up. He has to just watchand press the button. The computer does the rest.
                                          He said, Our Rafales will come with this equipment. That cost of development of helmet is included (in the deal).

                                          Stating that Indian Air Force was much superior to Pakistans during the 1999 Kargil war, Parrikar said, Between 1999 and 2014, until Narendra Modi came, Pakistan, through various purchases, had acquired a capacity of 100 km range, whereas we had upgraded our BVR (Beyond Visual Range missile) only 60 km on Su 30. So we were now in danger of being shot down by Pakistani fighters from 100 km away, and not being able to retaliate. That is also part of the (Rafale) purchase.
                                          About the process:

                                          He said, start discussion, finalise price and after everything is finished, please come back to me with all documentary evidence how Dassault, or the Rafale company, was the lowest.

                                          Parrikar pointed out that the Central Vigilance Commission guidelines say the government cannot negotiate with anyone other than the lowest. If you have identified him (any company) as the lowest, you can negotiate. But how do you negotiate with someone and then prove that he was lowest? Sofor two-and-a-half years, the file was going around in circles (under UPA). We broke the circle by deciding that we have to take a different approach.
                                          Indeed a messy process!