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Indian Air Force Thread 21

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    It would be good to get that conversation going in the China thread about the RCS of the J-20. The J-20 has been given a pass and the world seems to just focus on making up problems with the su 57


      Kaveri turbofan status


        For all those cribbing about India pulling out of the FGFA/PAK-FA/Su-57 program, this is what Turkey got for its $175 million investment as a partner in the F-35 program.

        Turkey became the seventh partner nation to join the Joint Strike Fighter programme in 2002, when it contributed $175 million to the system development and demonstration (SDD) phase. The US fighter also secured commitments from Australia, Canada, Denmark, Italy, the Netherlands, Norway and the UK.

        As a partner in the programme, the Turkish air force gained insight into the aircraft's concepts and requirements definition, while Turkish companies were brought in to the supply chain as subcontractors. For example, in co-ordination with Northrop Grumman, the main fuselage manufacturer for the F-35, Turkish Aerospace Industries manufactures and assembles centre fuselages, produces composite skins and weapon bay doors, and fibre placement composite air inlet ducts.

        Lockheed projects that the financial opportunities for Turkish companies to service and produce parts for the F-35 could reach $12 billion over the lifetime of the programme.
        link to FG

        And what did India get for its $250 million investment into the PAK-FA program? What information/drawings/designs were shared? What requirements was India able to shape as a so-called "partner" that was actually contributing money? What technologies were to be transferred for India to be able to induct and support the FGFA fleet? What parts would India make for ALL Su-57s that would be built for the RuAF and export nations? How much money would India have stood to gain from producing any parts for the global Su-57 fleet?

        So much of this blame gets apportioned to India without anyone talking about what Russia stood to gain from India's participation or what Russia would give for the money that was being spent by India as a so-called "partner". Does any Russian fanboy even know any of these answers or is it just fashionable to blame India for everything?


          As a partner in the programme, the Turkish air force gained insight into the aircraft's concepts and requirements definition, while Turkish companies were brought in to the supply chain as subcontractors. For example, in co-ordination with Northrop Grumman, the main fuselage manufacturer for the F-35, Turkish Aerospace Industries manufactures and assembles centre fuselages, produces composite skins and weapon bay doors, and fibre placement composite air inlet ducts.
          Is there a fresh update on what Turkey got today compare what Turkey was promised back in 2002?
          Lockheed projects that the financial opportunities for Turkish companies to service and produce parts for the F-35 could reach $12 billion over the lifetime of the program.
          Exactly how many $Billions do Turkey have invested in F-35 Production and development by now, and how much revenue is the Turkish defense industry gaining now?

          That article seems very vague.. sounds most like something fancy PowerPoint presentations LM would sell Turkey early on in the F-35 program.


            Mamma mia this is a funny one... how many of the Turkish F-35 are going to be produced in Turkey, as the FGFA was going to be produced in India? The first two units have been "delivered" but bound to stay in US from what I know and the delivery of the rest is pending on Turkey renouncing to their defence sovereignty. Are they also allowed to compete with LM for the export of F-35? And they gained insight in the technology so very much that now US is threatening to deny SW updates and access to ALIS and basically ground the planes. Deal of the century yes...

            BTW, unlike the F-35 where there were national partners to the core project, India was no partner of PAK-FA, which is a exclusively Russian project. They discussed about their own plane based in PAK-FA but never agreed Russian conditions to access the ToT so by now the PAK-FA is essentially ready while the FGFA remains just a name.


              You failed to give me any answer at all..
              If you are that adept in these matters, why not provide us with some figures?
              HOW MUCH INDUSTRY THROW BACK did Tirkey get from the F-35 program.
              How big are the production order on F-35 Parts?



                RIP to the pilot. Astonishingly high attrition rate, 31 accidents and 44 killed since 2015-16, and since 2011 it's over 75 accidents with over 80 killed across the three services. No other major military "superpower" would accept such figures.


                  ^ Ah, Sad to see you back with bad news. RIP!!

                  You must be knowing, how much rubbish is hidden under the carpet of world's so-called 2nd superpower China's PLAAF and a major supplier of armaments to third world countries? As your country and superpower share privileged relationship ... shhh, dont let the cat out!!
                  Last edited by rkumar; 19th July 2018, 08:38.


                    Easy there. The F-16 has also had a few rough years now with attrition. No need to compair these things. Its distastefull


                      Why just the PLAAF, the USAF too has had quite a few accidents and even fatalities. His own country's Air Force, the PAF, has an abysmal attrition rate, flying far fewer fighters, transports and helicopters combined than the IAF. And its not new- the PAF's attrition rate per 10,000 hours flown has typically been much higher than the IAF's.

                      Attrition:PAF crumbling away

                      The Pakistan Air Force is losing nearly two percent of its 900 aircraft each year to accidents. This is more than ten times the rate of Western air forces.
                      Last edited by BlackArcher; 26th July 2018, 04:49.


                        To save time, the Govt. may decide to forego field trials this time, since all the contenders were already evaluated the last time around. Instead they will need to specify what changes have been made to the respective jets since the last trials.

                        Finally some common sense being applied to procurement.

                        To save time govt may bypass field trials in MMRCA 2.0

                        The Indian Air Force (IAF) is working on formulating a set of QRs (qualitative requirements) against which it is likely to benchmark the bids submitted by six major aircraft manufacturers for supply of 110 fighter jets, instead of going through the tortuous process of field trials and evaluation, as was done in the previous such competition, more popularly known as the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) tender, which underwent a long process for eight years.

                        The latest competition, announced in April, was open to both single and twin engine combat jets like last time. The deadline to submit the bids was 6 July. All the six competitorsAmerican firms Boeing and Lockheed Martin, Russian Aircraft Corporation, Dassault of France, Swedish manufacturer Saab and European consortium, Eurofighter GmbHhad also participated in the earlier tender for supply of 126 fighters which was eventually withdrawn before India decided to buy 36 Rafale jets from the French under a G-to-G (government to government) deal signed in September 2016.

                        Having tested the six aircraft in contention during the extensive field trials in the earlier competition, the IAF more or less knows the capabilities that each of the aircraft bring to the table. The Request for Information (RFI), put out in April had a detailed questionnaire for all competitors, seeking details of upgrades that the aircraft fielded for the latest tender would have undergone in the intervening years since the fields trials under MMRCA took place. The aircraft are: four twin-engine fightersthe F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, Block III, Eurofighter Typhoon, MiG-35 and Rafale and two single-engine jets F-16 Block 70 and Gripen E.

                        The IAFs acquisition branch is now scrutinising all the six bids, running into thousands of pages. The exercise is likely to take at least three-four months before all the six documents are placed in a common matrix and then evaluated against the set of QRs that are being prepared separately. The next step, according to informed sources, will be to shortlist two or three aircraft that meet the air force requirement. Another round of field trials is not necessary given that we already know the capability of each of the aircraft. Since our fighter squadron strength is now in a precarious position, we need to close this deal as fast as possible, explained a defence official familiar with the process.

                        Once the shortlist is ready, the IAF will take the matter to the Ministry of Defence (MoD) and the Prime Ministers Office (PMO) and seek directions on the next steps. The government will have to decide quickly on how to make the final selection.

                        Top decision makers in the government have pointed out that none of Indias fighter jet acquisitions in the past have come through a competitive bidding. The only time it was tried was in the MMRCA tender. Finally though the process had to be scrapped and the Rafales bought through a G-to-G deal because of differences in calculating the cost of manufacturing. So, a repeat of that process in MMRCA 2.0 looks unlikely. Although there is merit in this approach, the final decision will depend on how the government wants to use this huge purchase order to its advantage and what the strategic environment is when the time to make the choice comes which, by all indications, will be after the next general elections at the earliest.
                        Nitin Gokhale, a journalist with some of the best sources and most trustworthy reports.


                          Notice the prime ministre impact on the final choice. If this has to be at a time coincident with some general election, I wonder what would be Modi line on the Rafale given the opposition's vehement campaign to denounce "a scandal".


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                            "A map does you no good if you don't know where you are"


                              “Once the process starts, from the technical evaluation to the down select of one aircraft can be completed in less than two years.

                              Realistic, or not?

                              When are the next elections in India?


                                Realistic in that the IAF will manage to finish trials and evaluation in 2 years. But national elections are in 2019 and the kind of stink that the opposition has managed to raise over a completely clean Rafale purchase was anyway going to ensure that a decision would not happen before that. So expect something to be done in 2020-2021, not any earlier.


                                  Realistic, or not?
                                  It depends on how far the previously assessed designs have been upgraded since they were assessed. For those that have remained the same, there is no need for a new assessment and verification phase. But if they have been upgraded then they will need to be assessed again since they very well may have new/improved capabilities.

                                  Either way, I would wager that *Indian bureaucracy* will be the primary factor in how long it takes. But maybe I'm just a pessimist.


                                    ALH Dhruv gives teeth to Navy's airborne ops


                                      IAF to acquire old Jaguar airframes and spares from overseas

                                      The Indian Air Force (IAF) will acquire airframes, assorted spares, and sub-assemblies from France, Oman, and the United Kingdom by the end of the year to support its ageing fleet of about 120 SEPECAT Jaguar IS/IB/IM ground-attack aircraft and improve their overall operational serviceability.

                                      Official sources told Jane’s on 24 July that France has agreed to supply the IAF 31 Jaguar airframes as a gift while Oman has consented to donate two similar airframes as well as eight Rolls-Royce Adour engines and 3,500 lines of spares for the platforms.

                                      The United Kingdom has offered two twin-seat Jaguar airframes and 619 lines of spares, capable of being restored to a fully serviceable condition for INR28 million (USD407,000).

                                      The cost of dismantling the airframes by technicians from the state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), which has licence-built IAF Jaguars since the early 1980s, and transporting them to India along with the ancillaries would be borne by the IAF.

                                      France retired the last of its Jaguar aircraft in 2005, while the United Kingdom did so in 2007 and Oman in 2014.

                                      “This procedure [of acquiring airframes and spares] has been done earlier for the IAF’s Canberra bomber fleet [retired in 2007],” former IAF Vice Chief Air Marshal Vinod Patney told Jane’s . “It’s a practical and economically sensible move doing the same for the Jaguar fleet,” he added.

                                      Other senior IAF officers said that the service has little choice but to ensure that its five Jaguar squadrons remain operational. The IAF’s fighter squadrons are expected to drop to 25 by 2022 from a sanctioned strength of 42.

                                      The first 40 imported Jaguars entered IAF service from 1979 and were supplemented thereafter by licence-built platforms, all of which have been plagued in recent years by low serviceability levels of under 60% due primarily to an enduring shortage of spares.


                                        Another article on the sourcing of used Jaguars from France, Oman and the UK. Looks like other sources may be tapped too..perhaps Nigeria and Ecuador?

                                        And it seems like the F-125IN re-engining program is gathering momentum finally. If the 60 to 80 odd DARIN-III Jaguars are to serve another 20 years, the new engine will be worthwhile, plus all the other capability additions as part of the DARIN-III upgrade.

                                        IAF launches new effort to revamp Jaguar fleet

                                        Additional Jaguars from other countries are being procured to ensure that common spare parts are available for the next 15 years or so, said another IAF official. The services currently face resource challenges in terms of spares, because both HAL and the original equipment manufacturer BAE Systems have stopped Jaguar production and have closed the assembly lines.

                                        In addition, the MoD is finalizing a direct purchase of F-125IN engines from Honeywell in the U.S. to be installed in the Jaguar fleet. HAL will buy 200 F-125IN engines off the shelf from Honeywell at a cost of $5 million per piece for 80 Jaguar fighters. Of these, 160 engines will be integrated with 80 Jaguar fighters, and the remaining 40 engines will be kept for reserve.

                                        Currently, the IAF Jaguar fleet is powered by Adour Mk811 engines, made by the British firm Rolls-Royce.

                                        A limited global tender was floated by HAL in 2011 to acquire high-thrust engines for the Jaguar fighter fleet, and only two companies — Honeywell and Rolls-Royce — responded. The tender was withdrawn last year when Rolls-Royce withdrew from the bidding.

                                        Daljit Singh, a defense analyst retired IAF air marshal, noted that "installation of a new engine requires major installation work, which has made the upgrade plan quite complicated. It appears that the upgrade plan has been made too ambitious, contributing to the delay in implementation.“

                                        Singh said improved strike capability could actually be more beneficial, but the modification of 60 twin-seat Jaguar fighters, termed as the upgraded Jaguar DARIN-III program, is going at a very slow pace by HAL. Launched in 2011, HAL has only delivered six upgraded prototypes after obtaining initial operation clearance in November 2016 at a cost of $6 million per unit.

                                        Under the new upgrade plan, HAL is also mounting active electronically scanned array EL/M-2052 radar from Elta of Israel, which will provide capability to simultaneously track enemy fighters, guide missiles, and jam enemy communications and radar. In addition, upgraded DARIN-III Jaguar fighters will be capable to launch AGM-88 HARM missiles and CBU-105 sensor-fuzed weapons. HAL has built 120 Jaguar deep penetration strike aircraft under technology transfer from BAE Systems.
                                        article gets it wrong in that all Jaguars undergoing DARIN-III upgrades are not twin seaters. Most are single seater Jaguar-IS versions. In fact, we've not seen any re profiled nose Jaguar-IB twin seaters with new radome to accomodate the Elta 2052 AESA radar. It'll be interesting to see what they look like.
                                        Last edited by BlackArcher; 27th July 2018, 00:27.


                                          IAF's first Apache AH-64E flies for the first time from the Boeing facility at Mesa, Arizona. Love the IAF color scheme!

                                          And the first CH-47F Chinook for the IAF also flew for the first time!

                                          Last edited by BlackArcher; 27th July 2018, 22:56.