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Indian Air Force Thread 21

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    What's this got to do with Ajai Shukla? He's quoting the HAL Chairman. HAL is worried about its order backlog for fighters, since the long running Su-30MKI production is coming to an end, with just 23 left to be delivered. An additional order for 40-60 Su-30MKIs would bulk up the fleet with a very capable fighter, at affordable procurement costs and give it 2-3 more squadrons within 3-6 years.
    He is to Rafale what some sites are to F-35. Because he was denied a flight in a backseat and became a sour hater.

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      haarvala, it's all about going down to the frame and structural parts. It's not an easy work by anyway... That you'd be working on a Russian airframe or US. SLEP involves also significant man hours that goes often beyond stitching an added strip of aluminium

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        Something i found on a forum board , Cant vouch for its authenticity ...... Comparision between MKI and Jags at standard payload



        Based on fuel fractions MKI might outrange the Jag by almost twice.

        in addition it will have exceptional maneuverability and speed compared to the jag with a TWR of almost 0.5 compared to 0.3 for jag at dry and almost 0.83 compared to Jags 0.46 after burner TWR.




        Now in a strike role if we want a sluggish MKI, which can at worst go to a 0.39 twr dry, MKI can carry an additional 8.7 Tons of Strike munition than the Jag and still get a 789 Km range based on a 0.248 Fuel Fraction.

        source
        "A map does you no good if you don't know where you are"

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          Official Presentation from Irkut/HAL on Indian Su-30MKI program

          http://eng.irkut.com/upload/Su-30MKI_eng.pdf
          "A map does you no good if you don't know where you are"

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            Based on fuel fractions MKI might outrange the Jag by almost twice.
            Well that is to be expected, Jag is less than half the size of Su-30.
            I mean, its original role was to replace Folland Gnat Trainer, aircraft designed by hobbits, for hobbits.

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              Something i found on a forum board , Cant vouch for its authenticity ...... Comparision between MKI and Jags at standard payload
              Su-30MKI: weight max 38800 kg, normal 25700 kg, empty 19660 kg (+ pylons), fuel 9640 kg, combat range air-to-air 1050 km, combat range air-to-surface 1425 km.

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                Well that is to be expected, Jag is less than half the size of Su-30.
                I mean, its original role was to replace Folland Gnat Trainer, aircraft designed by hobbits, for hobbits.
                Well the Finns bought the Gnat for their airforce, and they're not hobbits - one of the tallest nations in Europe in fact.

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                  They only had their mummi-trolls piloting it though.
                  sigpic

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                    @ Levsha According to Pete Collins, Gnat and M2k were his two preferred planes (for flying pleasure). I tend to believe a test pilot qualified on 114 types.

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                      I guess the translation should be checked... if it's done by a journo not knowing much about the subject, he may have used an approximation which changes the meaning for specialists
                      "Several" could mean anything between >2km to <100km. If he had said "several hundred kilometres", that would have been highly fanciful, to say the least.

                      The translation hasn't been done by a journo. It is exactly what the chief had said in response to a question. And this isn't the first time he has said this.

                      Previously also he has said that the J-20 isn't so stealthy. This time he added that a stealth plane doesn't have canards, it ain't stealthy. Obviously he was referring to the fact that the canards aren't edge aligned with the wings as is the norm with VLO aircrafts(elevons edge aligned with wings)

                      The surprising fact is the manner in which he was giving the answer. In a very casual tone he said the J-20 doesn't pose a threat to the IAF, there isn't any need to panic, it isn't not that stealthy and not even in the league of Fgfa. It can be dealt with by the IAF.
                      Chiefs usually tend to overstate the capabilities of their opponents platforms in order to secure a large budget. And make the case for newer platforms but with our chief that's not the case. The IAF must have carried out an in depth threat assessment of the J-20. The ACM didn't conjure up those statements out of thin air.

                      As for what he meant by several kilometers is that the J-20 can be detected at tactically relevant ranges. He didn't mean several kms literally. He just meant it can be detected and tracked at ranges which are long enough to favor a positive outcome in case our jets engage the J-20.

                      What he had exactly said was even the radar on our MKI can detect the J-20 at several kilometers. These were his exact words.
                      IAF keeps an eye on Chinese deployments in Tar. The J-20 was deployed to air bases in Tibet on more than one occasion. It was deployed at Daocheng Yading Airport. We may have detected and tracked the J-20 when it was carrying our trials in Tibet with our Phalcon AWACS.

                      TomcatVIP I know you don't understand Hindu so you wouldn't be able to make out what he was saying but AlphaBravo you do understand Hindi. You of course can see and hear and for yourself what the ACM had said and the manner in which gave the reply.

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                        RFP for Ka-226T has been released. We are now one step closer to signing the contract.

                        The deal is valued at Rs 21000 crore for 200 helicopters, 60 of which are to be supplied off the shelf by RusHeli.

                        https://economictimes.indiatimes.com...w/64191899.cms


                        NEW DELHI: India has moved a step further and reached a milestone in its project of procuring and co-producing 200 Kamov Ka-226T helicopters worth Rs 21,000 crore from Russia for the Indian Army and Indian Air Force, defence ministry officials privy to the matter said.

                        The ministry, a few days ago, issued a Request for Proposal (RFP) for the project to the manufacturer, Russian Helicopters, part of Russian corporation, Rostec. “The RFP for the 200 Kamov helicopters was signed and given a week ago to Russian Helicopters. This is a milestone in the process of procuring them,” said an official.
                        The RFP is an important document in the Indian defence procurement process and elaborates on the general requirement of the equipment, the numbers required, delivery timeframes, maintenance and support package.


                        Officials explained that the RFP was worked out in consultation with the joint venture setup between Russian Helicopters and Indian defence PSU, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL).
                        Last year, Indian and Russian officials had met several times to sort out the RFP, including understanding how the program will unfold in India. The RFP makes clear the intent to procure 200 of the helicopters, which entails 135 for the army and 65 for the IAF.


                        “For the army, 40 will be in flyaway condition and the rest 95 will be co-produced with Russia,” explained an official, adding that the next step is for the manufacturer to respond to the RFP to take the process forward.

                        Andrey Boginskiy, Director General of Russian Helicopters Holding Company, at the Defexpo-2018 held in Chennai last month had explained to reporters that, “In the nearest time the Russian side is expecting the issue of the RFP for 200 helicopters, and it means that we have come very close to entering into the contract.”


                        Officials added that the contract is likely to be signed by the end of this year. The Kamov helicopters will replace the ageing Cheetah helicopters.

                        For this, in 2015, India and Russia had signed an intergovernmental agreement (IGA) for the supply and localization of the helicopter production in India. In May 2017, a joint venture within the framework of the IGA was registered in Bangalore between Russian Helicopters and HAL.

                        As part of the project, India will procure 60 of the 200 helicopters in flyaway condition, which will be produced at the Ulan-Ude plant of Russian Helicopters, while the remaining 140 will be made in India under the joint venture. The joint venture facility will be located in the vicinity of Tumkur, near Bangalore.


                        Boginskiy explained that, “At least 140 helicopters will be assembled at the facilities of the joint venture with a gradual increase of the localization level. At first, components and technologies will be transferred and the provisions will be made for the organization of production in India, then production of components from the supplied materials and assembly of helicopters will begin, and, finally, complete assembly of the helicopters will be organized.”

                        He added that at the same time Ulan-Ude Aviation Plant is preparing at full speed to its part of work - production of 60 Ka-226T helicopters for India.

                        Comment


                          As India Goes Military Shopping in Russia, US Reminds of Moscow Sanctions

                          US officials said the major defence purchase by India from Russia would attract sanctions under the Countering America's Adversaries through Sanction Act (CAATSA), which was signed into law by US President Donald Trump in August 2017 and went into effect in January this year
                          Washington: At a time when India plans to purchase five S-400 Triumf air defence systems for around $4.5 billion from Russia, the US on Saturday said its friends and allies should take into consideration the law under which any significant purchase of military equipment from Moscow would attract American sanctions.

                          US officials said the major defence purchase by India from Russia would attract sanctions under the Countering America's Adversaries through Sanction Act (CAATSA), which was signed into law by US President Donald Trump in August 2017 and went into effect in January this year.

                          Prime Minister Narendra Modi and Russian President Vladimir Putin will hold an informal summit in the Russian city of Sochi on Monday, and official sources said the possible impact of the US sanctions against Russia under CAATSA on Indo-Russia defence cooperation may also figure during the talks between the two leaders.

                          "CAATSA is a feature and we need to take it seriously. The (Trump) administration is always bound by US law. This is a US law. I'm hoping that not just India, but all of the partners that we engage with will understand that we will have to evaluate any potential large defence purchase from Russia seriously because that's what the law demands of us," Tina Kaidanow, Principal Deputy Assistant Secretary of State for Political-Military Affairs, told reporters during a conference call on Saturday.

                          Kaidanow travels to India next week, during which she will hold talks on defence trade and peacekeeping, which are among two key areas of the rapidly growing US-India partnership as envisioned in the administration's Indo-Pacific strategy.

                          Referring to the conversation that the US is having with India and other countries on CAATSA, Kaidanow said the US wants this to be a positive discussion, not framed on the negative.

                          "We are going to have to continue to have that conversation with both our Indian counterparts and others about how do we deal with the CAATSA issue. But, I will tell you again, it is US law. We need to take it seriously. Our partners need to take that into consideration as they make their decisions. I can't stress that enough," Kaidanow said.


                          When specifically asked if she sees the possibility of US imposing sanctions on India, if it goes ahead with its defence deals with Russia, the senior US official said that everyone should read that legislation carefully and understand its intent.

                          "The intent is not to sanction our partners. The intent is to emphasise how important it is that Russia's malign behaviour all over the world is countered and by virtue of purchasing large-scale Russian system, what you're doing is enabling that kind of behaviour. That's the intent of the legislation," she said.


                          India is not going to allow its defence engagement with Russia to be dictated by any other country, the sources said earlier this week, adding New Delhi has been lobbying with the Trump administration on the issue.


                          Kaidanow sought to clarify that the message was intended not just for India but for all its partners as they contemplate these purchases. She underscored the "positive incentives" to buy American products which are "good" and address relevant security needs besides making their forces interoperable in certain instances.

                          "Think about what you're doing when you purchase Russian product. It has a distinctly negative byproduct and that is you are creating an environment in which they are better able to do some of the things that we know are problematic," Kaidanow said.


                          She acknowledged the US understands the historic defence relationship between India and Russia.

                          "We understand all of that. It's a function of what are we talking about? Are you buying, a single truck; are you buying a large scale system ... these are things we're going to talk about," she said.
                          "A map does you no good if you don't know where you are"

                          Comment


                            New U.S. Sanctions Pose Dilemma for Indias Defense
                            India is now between the devil and the deep blue sea. If India opts to do business with Russia, it loses out on spares and services from the U.S. on equipment already purchased such as the Boeing P-8I maritime patrol aircraft and the Lockheed Martin C-130J, said a senior MoD official. However, with no force majeure clause in those contracts, U.S. defense companies will be considered defaulters according to Indias Defense Procurement Procedure, resulting in heavy fines.

                            This issue brings us back to the issue of trust that took so long to build between the two nations, said an Indian MoD official. He noted that India has not yet signed two foundational agreements for defense cooperation with the U.S.: the Communications Compatibility and Security Agreement, previously known as the Communications and Information Security Memorandum of Agreement, and Basic Exchange and Cooperation Agreement. The two are necessary for India to access communication security equipment on imports from the U.S. and sharing geospatial information, respectively. India never fully trusted the U.S., the official added.
                            "A map does you no good if you don't know where you are"

                            Comment


                              US is becoming more desperate.. they now understand their relative weak position on world affaires related to sanctions towards Iran. US is probing their waters, but in the end they will get burned.
                              And.. what is that laughing?? Oh its coming all the way from Kreml. Seeing how EU-US relations goes down.

                              Russia is more then happy to step in with new contracts for replace Apache and P-8, C-130 etc and just stand back and whatch US-India relationship hit a new low.

                              Guess the A400 is also on the table now. And other Europen defense products. And i guess we now can burry ANY notion of India EVER procure F-35 or any other fighter jet.

                              India wont get bullied around. US might get a nasty backfire.
                              Last edited by haavarla; 19th May 2018, 10:12.
                              Thanks

                              Comment


                                New U.S. Sanctions Pose Dilemma for India’s Defense

                                I
                                ndia is now between the devil and the deep blue sea. If India opts to do business with Russia, it loses out on spares and services from the U.S. on equipment already purchased such as the Boeing P-8I maritime patrol aircraft and the Lockheed Martin C-130J,” said a senior MoD official. However, with no “force majeure” clause in those contracts, U.S. defense companies will be considered defaulters according to India’s Defense Procurement Procedure, resulting in heavy fines.

                                “This issue brings us back to the issue of trust that took so long to build between the two nations,” said an Indian MoD official. He noted that India has not yet signed two foundational agreements for defense cooperation with the U.S.: the Communications Compatibility and Security Agreement, previously known as the Communications and Information Security Memorandum of Agreement, and Basic Exchange and Cooperation Agreement. The two are necessary for India to access communication security equipment on imports from the U.S. and sharing geospatial information, respectively. “India never fully trusted the U.S.,” the official added.
                                "A map does you no good if you don't know where you are"
                                But this may not happen though, will it?

                                If you read further in the text:

                                “India warrants an exemption from these secondary sanctions, as does any country with which the U.S. is forging new and strategically important defense relations,” said the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace. U.S. Secretary of Defense Jim Mattis last month called on Congress to grant national security waivers to CAATSA. “There are nations in the world who are trying to turn away from formerly Russian-sourced weapons and systems. We only need to look at India, Vietnam, and some others to recognize that. Eventually, we’re going to paralyze ourselves,” he told the Senate Armed Services Committee.
                                https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-n...indias-defense

                                Will be interesting to see how it all ends.
                                Last edited by Levsha; 19th May 2018, 11:35.

                                Comment


                                  There is no guarantee that exemption will be given and even if it is given there may be strings attached to it like Reduce Defence buying from Russia in certain percentage etc

                                  This is more like dictating other nations sovereign decision even though they may be friendly to US and Russia both like India but considering how US is treating even its close allies like EU on JCPA and Germany on Nord Stream , it seems more like US needs vassals not friends certainly a friendship not on equal term but on US terms.
                                  "A map does you no good if you don't know where you are"

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                                    Given that Boeing has publically announced that it makes modernization of Russian military hardware one of its wanted axis of core business development we can be confident that there are much more activities being done than just public voiced opinion. IMOHO I don't see how India can't be seen as one of the major country where to base such business.
                                    Last edited by TomcatViP; 19th May 2018, 15:46.

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                                      But this may not happen though, will it?

                                      If you read further in the text:
                                      Middleast buy boatload of US weopons and if these allies pressure US to pressure India to buy exclusively energy from them?

                                      already threats of liquidation of investments in EU coming. if they liquidated on such scale. it will even bellyup Norway SWF.

                                      https://english.alarabiya.net/en/vie...s-with-us.html
                                      Europe should worry about its interests with us

                                      Comment


                                        'Not So Invisible After All': Su-30 Manages to Detect Top Chinese Stealth Jet
                                        "A map does you no good if you don't know where you are"

                                        Comment


                                          ^ is sputnik a reliable source of information?

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