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Indian Air Force Thread 21

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    They didn't to build biplanes before churning out their first fighter jet out of factories.

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      ???
      HAL started out in WW2 building piston-engined trainers & overhauling other military aircraft. It then built jets under license. Its first own-designed aircraft was another piston-engined trainer.
      Juris praecepta sunt haec: honeste vivere, alterum non laedere, suum cuique tribuere.
      Justinian

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        Originally posted by swerve
        ???
        HAL started out in WW2 building piston-engined trainers & overhauling other military aircraft. It then built jets under license. Its first own-designed aircraft was another piston-engined trainer.
        The Tejas was designed by ADA which started almost from scratch. Whatever design competencies HAL built up in the 60s & 70s atrophied away over the next decade or two as the govt chose to focus on imports.

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          The French are doing fine without a fifth gen. I guess India may do well to ditch the PAK FA if the Russians are playing hardball. Just invest in the Rafale and buy more of the type. May be join up with the French on their next gen project.
          What the hell are you talking about ?


          Who the hell said Russia is playing hardball ? Russia and HAL and the defense dept have a strong respectful relationship.

          France is a US client state. The US has 2 5th gens.

          The Rafale isn't going to cut it against a fleet of J-20's and FC-31's. Not even close.

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            The only way to know for certain is a real war between India and China.. so let's hope we don't find out... in any case, about the french being "US client state", that's probably why they rushed to buy F-35s and dropped the Rafale altogether.. oh wait...

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              The only way to know for certain is a real war between India and China.. so let's hope we don't find out.
              you haven to delivered the Rafale so there is no chance of testing it.
              . in any case, about the french being "US client state", that's probably why they rushed to buy F-35s and dropped the Rafale altogether.. oh wait...
              France is a lot worse than client state of US. France is now calling for German help to build a 5G fighter. once you understand the implication of this thing. you wont even get those 100 or so Rafale export orders that you are building at rate of 10 per year with no engine or radar upgrades. try look at MIG-35 what radar upgrade mean.

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                The Rafale isn't going to cut it against a fleet of J-20's and FC-31's. Not even close.
                The Indian MOD disagrees with you.

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                  Originally posted by KGB
                  The Rafale isn't going to cut it against a fleet of J-20's and FC-31's. Not even close.
                  They don't have to.. A large scale conflict between India and China is surreal.. and if you think Pakistan, then keep in mind they did not get a permission for even FC-20 (J-10B), as of yet..

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                    @Loke

                    No it doesn't. Which is why all the official stories coming out of India say that the FGFA is a go. Not the blathering from anonymous paid off IAF rats

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                      The Indian MOD disagrees with you.
                      Indian MOD?. there decisions are late and obsolete and when they ever take right decision?. you never buy expensive 4.5G fighter unless you have surety of getting 5G and 6G fighter from the same producer down the road.
                      clearly Macron feel that he need 5G fighter and he approached Germany first. but now slowly he is realizing that there is simply not enough money in EU and I have no doubt EU parts will shackle his export of 5G fighter and by the time the fighter is fully operational it will be obsolete circa 2040. Those expensive experiments in exports like A380 are not going to succeed again.


                      https://www.wsj.com/articles/france-...ina-1514808000
                      After Brexit vote and Trump’s rise, France aims to build a trade ‘backbone’ that runs from Europe to Beijing via Moscow
                      Economy and Finance Minister Bruno Le Maire said in an interview France was looking to China and Russia to act as a counterweight to increasingly uncertain trade relations with the U.S. and Britain.

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                        https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...w/62344575.cms

                        India buying 240 Kab-1500 (LG I am guessing).
                        sigpic

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                          Click image for larger version

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                          This is the first major accident of an IN MiG-29K.

                          Navy MiG accident -

                          A Navy MiG 29K aircraft operating from Goa was involved in an accident. The pilot aborted take-off. During deceleration, the aircraft veered off the end of runway and caught fire. The pilot jettisoned the cockpit and egressed aircraft safely.
                          The pilot was a trainee.

                          The fire on the MiG-29K has been extinguished completely and the aircraft has been rendered safe after removal of fuel on board.

                          Although most people are saying the ac is a write off, I feel the MiG can be economically repaired and returned to service especially when the fuselage and wings are intact. The fire was localised and didn't engulf the entire aircraft.

                          India buying 240 Kab-1500 (LG I am guessing).
                          240 bombs cost Rs 1254 crores. That's 0.795 mil$ per KAB 1500. Isn't that a bit expensive, TR1? I was initially thinking these must be some variant of Kh59 land attack Alcm but then again bombs ate mentioned in the press release from MoD.
                          Last edited by Arihant; 3rd January 2018, 15:04.

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                            The long stalled Jaguar re engine project is finally being revived. There is now a fresh impetus from the airforce for this new engine program and things will finally start moving.

                            http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/i...1/1121283.html

                            In a bid to maintain force levels and enhance firepower, the Indian Air Force (IAF) is pushing its plans to upgrade the capabilities of the Jaguar deep penetration strike aircraft by equipping them with new engines under a deal worth over Rs 5,000 crore, which has been stuck for more than six years now.

                            The deal would be crucial for the IAF to maintain its standards in the coming decade as the squadron strength would be going down due to indecision by the UPA from 2004-2014 in procuring any fighter plane for the service.

                            The IAF's sanctioned strength of fighter aircraft squadrons is 42, but it has been operating at a much lower strength due to delays in acquisition of replacements for MiG 21s and delays in deciding on the new fleet of multirole combat aircraft.

                            It has 32 squadrons at present. The IAF has five squadrons of Jaguar planes, which have to be maintained by equipping them with new engines from American firm Honeywell to maintain the present force-levels.

                            "The stuck project is being revived and pushed by the Air Force. A number of sticky issues with Honeywell have been sorted out and it is expected that there will be some movement forward in the deal in the coming times," a senior government official said.

                            As per the programme, the Indian Air Force will re-engine around 100 of its Jaguar planes deployed in Jamnagar, Gorakhpur and Ambala with Honeywell power plants.

                            The Jaguars are currently powered by Rolls-Royce Adour 804/811 engines which are to be replaced with Honeywell's F-125N engine. The new engines are supposed to provide almost 1.5 times the power the existing engines provide to the aircraft.

                            On December 19, 2011, the UPA government had stated in the Parliament that the Jaguar upgrade would be completed by December 2017, but that deadline expired on Sunday and still, no decision could be taken on the issue.

                            IAF officials said though the planes are almost three decades old, but there is still plenty of life left in them and they will help India maintain force levels in critical times.

                            As per IAF projections, it would have air superior Su-30MKI as its main work horse in the coming years. The Force will have 13 squadrons of these planes while it would be retiring its MiG 21s and Mig 27s in the next few years.

                            "If upgraded and re-engined, the Jaguar can serve as a potent fighter while the government can go on deciding on new aircraft to be procured for the air force," a source said.

                            Recently, MoS for defence Subhash Bhamre said in the Parliament, "The IAF will have 32 fighter squadrons and 39 helicopter units by 2020." The Air Force currently possesses 32 squadrons but, as the minister put it, "Three squadrons of MiG-21 aircraft will be phased out by 2020."
                            The IAF has 6 Jaguar IS /IM squadrons and not 5 as mentioned in this article.

                            The F-125IN engine has the following advantages.

                            -provides 17-25 percent higher thrust.
                            -reduces average takeoff run by 23 percent.
                            -the current engine has a growth potential of 30 percent
                            - MTBO is increased to 2000 hours from the current 500 hours.
                            - Reduced pilot workload due to dual FADEC and higher engine responsiveness. Has an auto restart feature. Thus increases pilot safety incase of flame out. EMS helps to monitor health of the engine and detection of faulty parts.
                            -2000 kg payload increase over the current engine
                            -The F-125IN was installed in the Adour test cell in Bengaluru without any modifications. It's a drop fit solution.
                            - Improves range by 36 percent due to lower SFC and due to reduced afterburner usage.
                            -Is 590 lb lighter than the Rolls Royce engine.
                            -1.5 billion reduction in life cycle costs
                            -More than 25 percent of the engine is to be manufactured in India.



                            Last edited by Arihant; 3rd January 2018, 15:21.

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                              The MiG-29K crash at Dabolim, Goa.

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                                Although most people are saying the ac is a write off, I feel the MiG can be economically repaired and returned to service especially when the fuselage and wings are intact. The fire was localised and didn't engulf the entire aircraft.
                                I would find that difficult to believe. Nose is crushed, intakes damaged and charred, looks like airframe bent or broken behind cockpit bulkhead, significant charring to underside.

                                higher quality pics:
                                https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...405/Master.jpg

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                                  don't underestimate russian hardware... a few hammer hits, some steel wire wrap up, and there you go... doesn't fly straight ? well, it didn't before as well, never mind...

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                                    I have some doubts over whether it can be repaired. Looks like a CAT-A mishap, primarily because of the fire. The airframe will very likely be written off, and if the engines had no issue, they will be taken out and re-used, as will whatever spares they can extract from this jet. Luckily it was a non-fatal accident.

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                                      IAF's entire C-17 fleet in one shot, No.81 'Skylords' squadron. The fleet has reached 12,000 flight hours in total.

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                                        For kicks and giggles, I've made a very rough depiction of the IAF's squadron strength and potential courses of actions.
                                        First is the baseline, where the IAF doesn't do anything other than what's already in the cards, i.e. 40+86 Tejas, 270 MKIs, etc. The only deviation is the 4 sqds of Rafales. I figure getting another two sqdns of Rafales is the no-brainer option.
                                        So, this is how the baseline, do-nothing scenario plays out; squadron strength dipping to 31 by 2035.



                                        Next comes the option of inducting the SEF. With induction starting at 2026 and full rate production of 36 frames/yr starting around 2029-30, with a total production run of 252 (14 sqdns).
                                        Sidenote: LM mentioned that the line in India would be able to produce 3 frames per month. I reckon, they did a similar (more informed) analysis of IAF needs.
                                        By 2035, the magic mark of 45 squadrons is reached, around the same time the Mig-29UPGs are gone from the fleet.



                                        Next option is to go balls-to-the-walls with Tejas; go all in on Tejas with 25 frames per year production rate from 2027-28 and produce about 380 (21 sqdns of them). The full rate of 25 frames per year is started around 2027 to give the potential MK2 or an even more improved MK1A time to mature. That also allows the IAF to reach 45 squadrons by 2035.



                                        Clearly, the SEF and Tejas are competing against each other for space in the IAF budget. My preferred choice is the Tejas but there are a lot of technical, programmatic, and bureaucratic uncertainties associated with that program (beyond the 126 ordered/being ordered) and the IAF is trying to mitigate those risks with the SEF.
                                        Most likely, the outcome will be what the IAF/MoD always does; when presented with a choice of consolidating the number of types in the fleet or expanding it, they will choose to expand it, i.e. they will split the baby and get both the SEF and Tejas of around 10-11 squadrons each.



                                        Note that I am not taking any 5G platforms into account. That is so up in the air, I can't even speculate.
                                        Last edited by Victor; 4th January 2018, 05:16. Reason: nitnoids
                                        But what a fool believes, he sees
                                        No wise man has the power to reason away

                                        -The Doobie Brothers

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                                          This is the clearest pic of the 29K from the frontal aspect. The leading edge right wingtip was clipped. The radome has been extensively damaged. Apart from that everything looks fine from this pic.

                                          The airframe of the 29K has been substantially beefed up to cope with the higher forces and stresses of landing and arrested recovery. I reckon the internal bulkheads are fine and would require detailed inspection. If at all damaged, a frame or two might be buckled or out of place.

                                          https://twitter.com/manupubby/status...564544512?s=17

                                          As per Mr Pubby, his Navy sources have said that the aircraft could be recovered.

                                          Su-27 as well F-111 have done quite a few belly landings in the past. Then there was that incident of the Fullback turning turtle. The Fullback suffered extensive damage but it was repaired at NAPO and returned to service. Let's have some hope.

                                          @Victor. An excellent article brother. Chances of the SEF being acquired is very dim. The MoD is yet to float a formal RFI. And Fgfa is a surety. The detailed R&D part of the JV may be scrapped but the program will continue with off the shelf imports initially followed by licensed production at HAL.
                                          HAL has considerable expertise in CFC manufacturing and assembly of composites parts courtesy of the Tejas program. And now private aerospace companies too are being roped in by HAL as Tier 1 and 2 partners. The entire fuselage and wings are being outsourced to the private sector. And tolerance standards in the Tejas project are as per international standards. By international I mean the standards followed by Eads for their Typhoon and Dassault for Rafale. So HAL wouldn't have any major problems in setting up a Pakfa line and working with composite structures.
                                          Last edited by Arihant; 4th January 2018, 07:38.

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