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    Taking one example... T-90 is considered to be given a favourable treatment according to these experts bcoz for obstacle performace, Arjun MBT was suppose to do a 35deg gradient compared to 30deg gradient for T-90.

    These so called experts and the morons who take it at face value completely lack the basic sense to understand what it is....... to put it in the most simplest form. Arjun is specified for 35deg gradient as per its designers where as T-90 is specified for 30deg gradient, so thats what both MBTs were tasked to show.

    Its the same for the water ingress, Arjun MBT guys might have claimed that their machine is rated for zero ingress and hence that was set as its paramater. Where as T-90 and the earlier T-72s have a permissible water ingress limit during fording.
    Exactly Jang. Might as well make a point- Crew of 3. Well, we know who wins that one outright.

    What it comes down to, is are the cumulative design choices in both tanks sensible- and if one takes a quick look at the atrocious turret armor layout on the Arjun, without even bringing up the dubious gun, engine, munition, etc etc choices, it is no surprise it has had a hard time getting anywhere. And mind you, this is in a comparison with an older T-90 variant, not something up to date, such as the T-90MS which India in any case ended up buying (or just about to buy).

    what was the point of focusing on the Arjun's inability to fire guided missiles from its main gun, when it was never specified or required that it should be able to do so? Most tank designs can't fire missiles from their main gun.
    Because it is a serious disadvantage when comparing two complete weapon systems? One is available (almost) entirely from one source, is produced en-masse and has been trialed and bought all over the world, the other is a hodgepodge of foreign parts.
    Since we are talking munitions, the disparity is huge. If India coughs up for better rounds than ancient Mango, it can go far beyond the anemic rounds they produce domestically to date. Maybe Russia is to blame for export restrictions, but newer rounds have been export approved since (and India is a special customer in any case). T-90 is available with a modified auto loader for years allowing longer rounds. And missile capability. And Ainet fused HE-FRAG rounds.

    Other countries (including India) are going for GLATGMs, its not a niche capability.
    Last edited by TR1; 16th August 2017, 05:54.
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      A much better article on the green-light for the FGFA program with Russia, by Ajai Shukla. This article appeared earlier than Vivek Raghuvanshi's and is much better framed.

      Indo-Russian Gen-5 fighter gets green light; experts find “no conflict with indigenous AMCA fighter”
      Black Archer (and others):

      http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2787703.html

      Talks about these internal committees as well- how important are they towards an official procurement process?

      IAF will hopefully be getting the nicest @$$ among all active fighters among its ranks (relatively) soon
      https://russianplanes.net/images/to216000/215504.jpg
      Last edited by TR1; 16th August 2017, 05:55.
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        That news of 108 number was mentioned by Defense News/Vivek Raghuvanshi and he is as unreliable as one can get , If you dont hear from IAF or MOD official sources dont rely on this numbers it keeps floating around like 108 ,200 ,50 etc.

        Oh please lets cut the tank thing and post something on IAF.
        "A map does you no good if you don't know where you are"

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          Originally posted by TR1
          What it comes down to, is are the cumulative design choices in both tanks sensible- and if one takes a quick look at the atrocious turret armor layout on the Arjun, without even bringing up the dubious gun, engine, munition, etc etc choices, it is no surprise it has had a hard time getting anywhere. And mind you, this is in a comparison with an older T-90 variant, not something up to date, such as the T-90MS which India in any case ended up buying (or just about to buy).
          The armour layout on the Arjun is similar to the Leopard 2A4. Engine's from MTU, transmission's Renk. And a GATGM capability had been demonstrated as well (though it was nixed on min. range grounds).

          Because it is a serious disadvantage when comparing two complete weapon systems? One is available (almost) entirely from one source, is produced en-masse and has been trialed and bought all over the world, the other is a hodgepodge of foreign parts.
          Makes sense from the perspective of those hawking the weapons systems. For those concerned about the larger national interest, its a prescription for perpetual foreign dependency paid for with foreign exchange. The IA's artillery acquisition saga is an apt example, where the expedient solution would have been to import and/or assemble a 'proven' solution, but where the failure of import efforts allowed indigenous programs to mature.

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            It is not similar at all, past looking boxy.

            The Leopard2 has proper armor behind its main sight, and has more extensive side protection. The Arjun's side armor turret array does not protrude anywhere near long enough to protect the tank in most frontal arc engagements.
            Even on the hull, the Arjun manages to have random weakspots:
            http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_o_no4M2xEP...06f-768543.jpg


            For engine they took essentially a Leopard 1 engine offshoot and roided the hell out of it. I don't understand why......
            I'll be fair and say that the T-90 hardly has a modern power compartment, and in terms of swapping out the engine it is outdated, and also has a poor reverse speed.
            But, it is an upgrade of an older line, while the Arjun is comparatively clean-sheet. And yet they go for weird solutions.
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              Originally posted by TR1
              It is not similar at all, past looking boxy.

              The Leopard2 has proper armor behind its main sight, and has more extensive side protection. The Arjun's side armor turret array does not protrude anywhere near long enough to protect the tank in most frontal arc engagements.
              That's one theory. I've trawled through endless pages of discussions, MS paint diagrams, and am yet to find a cross-sectional drawing by the makers. Besides, its not exactly going to being pit against the Abrams on the battlefield.

              For engine they took essentially a Leopard 1 engine offshoot and roided the hell out of it. I don't understand why......
              I'll be fair and say that the T-90 hardly has a modern power compartment, and in terms of swapping out the engine it is outdated, and also has a poor reverse speed.
              The 1500HP wasn't available for export at the time IIRC. On the other hand the T-90, according to the CAG, needs an AC which is a complication in terms of power & space but in absence of which electronics have been conking out. Don't know if they found a working solution for that, as I recall the OEM & Israeli units didn't clear the trials.
              Last edited by Vnomad; 16th August 2017, 07:07.

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                Remarkable flying! Saved a Mirage-2000TH from being lost due to a bird hit that incapacitated the pilot and shattered the canopy.

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                  It is not similar at all, past looking boxy.

                  The Leopard2 has proper armor behind its main sight, and has more extensive side protection. The Arjun's side armor turret array does not protrude anywhere near long enough to protect the tank in most frontal arc engagements.
                  Even on the hull, the Arjun manages to have random weakspots:
                  http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_o_no4M2xEP...06f-768543.jpg


                  For engine they took essentially a Leopard 1 engine offshoot and roided the hell out of it. I don't understand why......
                  I'll be fair and say that the T-90 hardly has a modern power compartment, and in terms of swapping out the engine it is outdated, and also has a poor reverse speed.
                  But, it is an upgrade of an older line, while the Arjun is comparatively clean-sheet. And yet they go for weird solutions.
                  that's interesting. what do you think of the Ariete armor and the asian tanks. type 10, k2, and type 99?

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                    http://www.upi.com/Defense-News/2017...9701503934216/

                    Now this.. i'm confused?
                    Thanks

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                      no need to be confused the F-18 line as the F-16 line is closing soon, they try to get some more cash out of it. Now, would the aircraft be suitable for india's needs is another question that needs to be addressed, but they try to position themselves. However, one can wonder how interesting that offer can be (building the construction facility), if India gets only 57 aircraft... the price per aircraft can be huge. But that can also be a cheap way to put the competition under pressure, as Dassault sold a batch of Rafales there, and is likely to sign soon for another one, and is also competing for the same project (and, has started already preparing to build in India as part of its offsets obligations), Boeing can hardly just say "we sell off the shelf".. India would find that offer much less appealing. By proposing to build in country, they expect to stay in the competition and, at least, make things more complicated for Dassault and force them to try to be more competitive by cutting their margins (less cash for them means less margin for negotiation in other markets as well)

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                        Originally posted by TooCool_12f
                        no need to be confused the F-18 line as the F-16 line is closing soon, they try to get some more cash out of it. Now, would the aircraft be suitable for india's needs is another question that needs to be addressed, but they try to position themselves. However, one can wonder how interesting that offer can be (building the construction facility), if India gets only 57 aircraft... the price per aircraft can be huge. But that can also be a cheap way to put the competition under pressure, as Dassault sold a batch of Rafales there, and is likely to sign soon for another one, and is also competing for the same project (and, has started already preparing to build in India as part of its offsets obligations), Boeing can hardly just say "we sell off the shelf".. India would find that offer much less appealing. By proposing to build in country, they expect to stay in the competition and, at least, make things more complicated for Dassault and force them to try to be more competitive by cutting their margins (less cash for them means less margin for negotiation in other markets as well)
                        The Rafale-M's wingspan is more than the Vikrant's (10-10.5 m) wide hangar lifts can accommodate. Even the SH will be an extremely tight fit - Boeing is proposing to position the aircraft slightly off-axis for a more room - but I'm skeptical. Unless Dassault develops a variant with folding wings (easier said than done), the Rafale is a non-starter altogether. And of course neither of them can fit in the Vikramaditya's tiny lifts.

                        The MiG-29K, with suitable rectifications, is the obvious winner here IMO.

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                          @blackArcher. Thanks for sharing that story . Did he recovered enough to fly again ?.
                          Must admit to be amazed that a bird could do such damage . what was it a pellican , must have been quiet big . I have seen bird strike damages on canopies , including M2000 but have not seen nor heard of one that went fully through, and had yet enough interia to damage the seat and rear seat separation . I can only imagine the initial shock on the crew ... So hats off on recovering from that

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                            what is obvious is that, if there was physical impossibility to fit the Rafale on Indian carriers, Dassault wouldn't have good hopes to sell it there.. but it does expect to achieve the sale, so rather wait and see what comes out of it

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                              what is obvious is that, if there was physical impossibility to fit the Rafale on Indian carriers, Dassault wouldn't have good hopes to sell it there.. but it does expect to achieve the sale, so rather wait and see what comes out of it
                              Lol. I'm even more confused. The Rafale's India is bying now is not for India Navy Aviation. Its for the Airforce. And so will the next batch(if there is any).
                              This requirements or Tender for In Navy is years off.

                              But the wierdest was about F-16. That article made it sound as IAF want to buy the thing.. which i think is Dead wrong.
                              Remind me again why the F-16 and SH flunked out of the MMRCA Tender?
                              Last edited by haavarla; 31st August 2017, 17:09.
                              Thanks

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                                ok, Rafale has been bought for the Air Force (batch of 32 aircraft), and there are talks about another batch of 32 apparently.. that is one thing.

                                As offsets, dasault has to invest in India and has made a Joint venture with reliance to manufacture stuff there (at least some Rafale parts, if not more, but that's another deal)

                                lately, Indian Navy has made a request for a naval fighter as they aren't satisfied with the Mig29K, and SAAB, Dassault and Boeing are trying to get that deal. In that, Dassault has an advantage over other competitors as its platform is fully operational (advantage over SAAB who still has to develop a naval Gripen, and they have zero experience in naval fighters) and the Rafale M could benefit of commonality in maintenance with the air force as the infrastructures in place could handle both (bringing advantage in price). Vnomad has expressed the idea that the Rafale couldn't fit the Vikrant's elevators and that it would disqualify other contenders than Mig, which sounds strange to me as I can't see Dassault proposing a fighter for an aircraft carrier if that fighter can't fit the carrier at all...

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                                  Originally posted by TooCool_12f
                                  what is obvious is that, if there was physical impossibility to fit the Rafale on Indian carriers, Dassault wouldn't have good hopes to sell it there.. but it does expect to achieve the sale, so rather wait and see what comes out of it
                                  Originally posted by TooCool_12f
                                  Vnomad has expressed the idea that the Rafale couldn't fit the Vikrant's elevators and that it would disqualify other contenders than Mig, which sounds strange to me as I can't see Dassault proposing a fighter for an aircraft carrier if that fighter can't fit the carrier at all...
                                  Umm... its not an 'idea', its just plain fact, no ifs or buts. That lift doesn't have adequate space. Physically. (Don't take my word for it - you can measure it yourself like I did.)

                                  As for what Dassault is planning, according to this article -

                                  The Show Stopper

                                  Despite recent reports that the two Western MRCBF competitors could operate from INS Vikramaditya in addition to the Indian Navy’s future carriers, this is simply not possible. The converted Soviet-era ‘aircraft carrying cruiser’ has two aircraft elevators that are located within the flight deck, instead of on the deck-edges, and both are too small to accommodate either the Super Hornet or the Rafale. The larger forward lift, beside the carrier’s superstructure, is 18.8 x 9.9 metres, while the Super Hornet’s wings fold to just under 10 metres and the Rafale’s wings, slightly less than 11 metres wide, do not fold at all. The aft lift is narrower, with an 8.6-metre width that is barely able to fit the MiG-29K’s 7.5-metre folded span. The Naval LCA, with a wingspan of a little over eight metres, would certainly have fit the forward lift if not the aft one – the Navy prefers for aircraft carrier elevators to be sufficiently larger than the aircraft they will carry for ease of aircraft handling and movement.

                                  The real ‘show stopper’ for the entire MRCBF requirement, however, is the configuration of IAC-1. Unlike Vikramaditya, and like most contemporary carriers, the aircraft lifts on IAC-1 are positioned on the starboard edge of the deck allowing longer aircraft to ‘hang out’ over the water with only their landing gear on the platform. But because the carrier was designed around an air wing of MiG-29Ks and Naval LCAs, the lifts were sized for wingspans no larger than eight metres. 10 x 14 metres, to be precise. While MiG-29Ks and N-LCAs can fit on these lifts with parts of their noses or empennages hanging over the edges, the Super Hornet and Rafale once again cannot.

                                  Both Boeing and Dassault are apparently working on solutions to allow their aircraft to fit the lifts. Sources close to the programme said that Boeing is considering a system that would allow the Super Horner to sit canted on the lift, the tilt of the (folded) wings thereby resulting in a slightly shorter overall span measured parallel to the deck. With its fixed wings, the Rafale cannot offer such a solution, and Dassault is understood to be exploring a detachable wingtip, although this involves greater engineering and certification challenges.
                                  Last edited by Vnomad; 29th August 2017, 23:37.

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                                    India’s Air Force Interested in 36 More Rafale Fighter Jets From France

                                    The Indian Air Force is strongly lobbying for additional Dassault Rafale fighter jets.

                                    The Indian Air Force (IAF) is interested in placing a follow-up order for 36 additional fourth-generation Dassault Rafale multirole fighter jets, according to Indian Ministry of Defense (MoD) sources.

                                    The Indian government and French aircraft maker Dassault Aviation signed a 7.87 billion euros agreement for the sale of 36 Rafale fighter jets in September 2016, following four years of protracted negotiations. Delivery of the Rafale fighter jets is expected to begin in November 2019 and will likely be completed in the middle of 2022.

                                    Sources have now revealed to The Times of India that the IAF has made “some presentations” on the operational need for an additional 36 Rafale fighter jets arguing that a follow-up order would just cost around 60 percent of the original acquisition and induction price.

                                    The IAFs first Rafale fighter jet squadron will be based in West Bengal, whereas the second squadron is slated to be based in Haryana. Both IAF bases will be able to accommodate an additional squadron of 18 aircraft each. “This will cut down the induction costs of the 36 additional fighters,” IAF sources said.

                                    The twin-engine, canard delta wing, multirole fighter aircraft can be armed with nuclear weapons and will be part of India’s nuclear triad. According to the IAF, the Rafale fighters, armed with Meteor air-to-air missiles, Scalp air-to-ground missiles, and possibly the air launched variant of the BrahMos cruise missile, will be “a huge deterrent” vis--vis China and Pakistan.

                                    The IAF presentation reportedly also emphasizes that the Rafale will be cheaper than the Sukhoi/HAL Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA), known in India as the Perspective Multirole Fighter (PMF) currently under development. In 2010, India and Russia began work on a next-generation joint stealth fighter; however, work on the program has stalled for numerous reasons including the inability to reach a work sharing agreement.

                                    The IAF purportedly needs to add 200 to 250 new aircraft in the medium-weight fighter jet category to maintain its edge over China and Pakistan. The IAF currently fields 33 fighter squadrons each at various degrees of operational readiness. However, that number is supposed to increase to 42 by 2027. “The number of squadrons is based on a hypothetical joint threat from China and Pakistan,” I explained. “The IAF will need at least six additional squadrons of medium multi-role combat aircraft.”

                                    Senior IAF officers have repeatedly pushed for the induction of additional Rafale fighter jets. In a December 2016 interview, then head of the IAF, Air Chief Marshall Arup Raha, said that the Rafale is “tremendously capable in all its role. It is a multi*role aircraft and can be used very effectively. It can prove its worth in any situation.” Nevertheless, “we have just ordered 36 aircraft and we require more aircraft in this middle weight category to give entire spectrum of capability.” The naval version of the Dassault Rafale fighter jet could also be of interest to the Indian Navy.
                                    https://thediplomat.com/2017/08/indi...s-from-france/

                                    Interesting that IAF is pushing for more rafales instead of priorisation of so called 5th gen design.
                                    Last edited by eagle1; 30th August 2017, 08:42.

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                                      lately, Indian Navy has made a request for a naval fighter as they aren't satisfied with the Mig29K, and SAAB, Dassault and Boeing are trying to get that deal. In that, Dassault has an advantage over other competitors as its platform is fully operational (advantage over SAAB who still has to develop a naval Gripen, and they have zero experience in naval fighters)...
                                      Bear in mind that SAAB, being cognisant of their lack of experience in naval fighters, set up a design office in the UK to harness UK expertise in designing aircraft for carrier use.

                                      Both Boeing and Dassault are apparently working on solutions to allow their aircraft to fit the lifts. Sources close to the programme said that Boeing is considering a system that would allow the Super Horner to sit canted on the lift, the tilt of the (folded) wings thereby resulting in a slightly shorter overall span measured parallel to the deck. With its fixed wings, the Rafale cannot offer such a solution, and Dassault is understood to be exploring a detachable wingtip, although this involves greater engineering and certification challenges.
                                      I hazard that Rafale wiould be much much more costly than the standard M version. How come nobody thought of sizing the lifts to allow aircraft lager than MiG-29/Naval Tejas to be accommodated?
                                      Sum ergo cogito

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                                        interesting
                                        how about the f-35B or the F-35c with folded wings?

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                                          Three big projects entered production this week.

                                          1. Light Combat Helicopter
                                          2. Barak-8/LRSAM
                                          3. Astra AAM
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