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Indian Air Force Thread 21

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    While at the same time, IAF have to resort to cannibalizing active aircraft in its pc-7 fleet as they don't have any maintenance contract since end of last year.

    http://www.janes.com/article/71722/i...nance-supplier

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      Wait for RFI before speaking of any selection?

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        IAF are fixated on this single engine fighter. They want new western machines at almost any cost and would resort to all tactics including cannibalisation, reducing squadron strength and pointing out more flaws in LCA. And they use flaws in Indian procurement procedures to their advantage. They have a home made single engine fighter. Why not induct it at faster pace, improve gradually and keep inducting it. But yes! Now HAL cannot produce them fast enough.
        Nothing is easier than self-deceit. For what each man wishes, that he also believes to be true. Demosthenes

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          The dilemma is that if we think only about Tejas then we will miss the current level of technology. In Tejas itself the engine radar, jammer, EW etc are all imported. The SE tender is not just about fighters but also about absorption of the associated technology by Indian partners and suppliers which will raise the level of domestic industry. In future the cost of developing a brand new fighter will be so cost prohibitive that many companies (read countries )have to pool in their resources for a common programme.

          Like they say its never too late to mend.

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            I think this is an example of a flawed approach. It is not necessary to import a new fighter design in order to import the technology of the equipment fitted to it. Consider Israel: it has very successful businesses making & selling missiles, radars, etc. How many fighters does Israel build?

            India has a long history of developing dead ends. Instead of building internationally competitive businesses which can develop internationally competitive technology (which Indians are perfectly capable of doing), where necessary with foreign partners, with the state acting as an enabler by providing funding for research & buying the products when they're good enough, there have been grand projects trying to do everything at once, interspersed with spells of neglect in which capabilities have been lost, an alternation between overreach & excessive timidity instead of steady progress.

            You don't need to buy Gripen E to get the technology of its radar. If Tejas is good enough (& looking at the potential opposition it looks it), go for a joint venture, with shared technology to provide a new radar for Tejas. SAAB, Leonardo, Airbus & Thales would all be happy to co-operate, I expect, because the market would be big enough. Also the Israelis,as long as there are no US technology transfer problems.

            And so on.
            Juris praecepta sunt haec: honeste vivere, alterum non laedere, suum cuique tribuere.
            Justinian

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              Israel have a special understanding with the US industry for canceling the LAVI.
              It is something that India have not. Hence the strategic importance of the Teja for example.

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                India should now just concentrate on the tejas. I don't see the tejas, with some new avionics, aesa radars from israel or italy, would be a much worse fighter than the gripen. Right now india should concentrate on mass producing tejas, and r&d resources for a new 5th gen fighter.

                If 2017 india is pushing for another new 4th gen fighter (after the tejas and rafale), knowing the sloth like pace of decision making in india, that new fighter will be operational by what? 2027? By that time all those rafale, tejas and f-16/gripen will be outclassed by chinese/korean/turkish/japanese 5th gen stealthy fighters.

                Long term planning, something so hard for the indians to grasp.

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                  Just look at other countries that have an f-16 final assembly line, turkey and korea. They didn't get any avionics or engine tech transfers along with the assembly line, so don't expect the f-16 or gripen assembly line to come with all that stuff.

                  Or look at the hawk assembly line. The original assembly line was removed from UK and transferred wholesale to india, and promises like future exports would be from indian assembly line. In reality? When BAE got the new saudi hawk AJT contract, they simply build a brand new replacement final assembly line in UK, and now they could still build the hawk in UK, despite the original final assembly line moved to India.

                  India should learn to trust the work of its own people, and end the white men superiority complex that still permanate in their subconcious minds after more than half a century of independence. Believe in the tejas, and start working from now for 5th gen fighter technologies.
                  Last edited by alexz; 28th June 2017, 09:58.

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                    India is pursuing AMCA. That will be the next fighter after Tejas. The technology aspect can be taken care of by JV route but no one is ready to part with key technologies unless .........

                    So the logical step is through JV just like the Brahmos model. Strategic partnership policy aims to achieve just that.

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                      Originally posted by alexz
                      Just look at other countries that have an f-16 final assembly line, turkey and korea. They didn't get any avionics or engine tech transfers along with the assembly line, so don't expect the f-16 or gripen assembly line to come with all that stuff.

                      Or look at the hawk assembly line. The original assembly line was removed from UK and transferred wholesale to india, and promises like future exports would be from indian assembly line. In reality? When BAE got the new saudi hawk AJT contract, they simply build a brand new replacement final assembly line in UK, and now they could still build the hawk in UK, despite the original final assembly line moved to India.

                      India should learn to trust the work of its own people, and end the white men superiority complex that still permanate in their subconcious minds after more than half a century of independence. Believe in the tejas, and start working from now for 5th gen fighter technologies.
                      Alexz right words were never said before as you have said. But its more than inferiority complex. Its white man's currency talking which often entices mover & shakers in India. If west, using all glossy marketing lingo, markets a decade old turboprop in India as a substitute for Mig 21, by greasing enough presstitutes and babudom , it can make that turboprop also a serious contender.

                      The articles throws light on kind of corruption that can exist in our babudom:

                      http://madrascourier.com/insight/how...ed-for-whisky/

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                        alexz

                        India should learn to trust the work of its own people...
                        Perhaps the work of its own people. But not the predictions of its own people: Tejas has missed the majority, if not all of its deadlines, has it not?

                        India should now just concentrate on the tejas.
                        How much more does India have to concentrate on Tejas to get aircraft built and delivered? India can concentrate as much as it likes but unless HAL et al actually get the thing made as promised it's just unproductive concentration.
                        Sum ergo cogito

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                          Looks like F16 is the winner. As it comes under SP model it had an uoper hand.
                          Here is the F-16V (Block 70) spec

                          http://www.lockheedmartin.com/conten...mmary_2017.pdf
                          "The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."

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                            Spitfire9

                            What will india gain by searching for yet another 4th gen fighter? When do you think that the indian government can sign a contract for the f-16/gripen? In 5 years time? That is 2022. Setting up the assembly line and probably the earliest f-16/gripen to roll out in 2025 maybe.

                            Instead if india build only 2 tejas per month starting 2018, by 2025, you would have 168 tejas by then.

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                              Here is the F-16V (Block 70) spec
                              Does those F-16s come with a free bottle of Johnny Walker Black Label ?

                              Comment


                                Does those F-16s come with a free bottle of Johnny Walker Black Label ?
                                You mean to ask if its armed with Johnny Walker Black Label? Naah, I think if comes armed with Opium bullets, it should do the trick, considering against whom IAF primarily intends to use. That might be more effective(considering past) than any other weapon!

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                                  Originally posted by Anant View Post
                                  You mean to ask if its armed with Johnny Walker Black Label? Naah, I think if comes armed with Opium bullets, it should do the trick, considering against whom IAF primarily intends to use. That might be more effective(considering past) than any other weapon!
                                  Lets quit this line of argument before someone suggests the other side to arm their fighters with curry based weapons, and the entire forum getting derailed.

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                                    Times ago, an opium bullet would have been a well perfumed Parisian petite

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                                      Lets quit this line of argument before someone suggests the other side to arm their fighters with curry based weapons, and the entire forum getting derailed.
                                      Naah curry weapons are too complicated for them to master. Unless her friend repays old debt for supplying nukes & missiles by clandestinely supplying secret Shaan curry packets/ingredients back to them. IAF might have to resort to adding Bhut Jolokia along with opium to up the ante

                                      Originally posted by TomcatVIP
                                      Times ago, an opium bullet would have been a well perfumed Parisian petite
                                      Last edited by Anant; 30th June 2017, 15:43.

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                                        Cross-posting from the Tejas thread, since this is now an in-service IAF fighter

                                        Tejas SP-6 (LA-5006) flew for the first time today. Should join the No.45 Flying Daggers squadron soon. SP-5, which is being built on a separate assembly line established in the erstwhile Kiran hangar, will fly next.

                                        Comment


                                          alexz

                                          What will india gain by searching for yet another 4th gen fighter? When do you think that the indian government can sign a contract for the f-16/gripen? In 5 years time? That is 2022. Setting up the assembly line and probably the earliest f-16/gripen to roll out in 2025 maybe.

                                          Instead if india build only 2 tejas per month starting 2018, by 2025, you would have 168 tejas by then.
                                          Sure, buy Tejas if sufficient production level is achieved but how likely is that? IAF can't fight with promised planes. It needs real planes. It would be great if India produced Tejas at a rate of 2 per month next year (or let's say 16 in the year) but let's look at past and present performance to get an idea of how likely that would be. Would extremely unlikely be an unfair assessment? If so, someone please xplain why.
                                          Sum ergo cogito

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