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2017 F-35 news and discussion thread

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  • Marcellogo
    Rank 5 Registered User

    Let me again to cite myself, so to answer to J Frazier and so to allow us to pass over the thing.
    When someone write
    the more, the less
    and
    from Mig-29A onward
    one should understand that the point is about a continuing trend, not about the performance of just one plane or even better to the initial full scale version of it.
    That's however if he is really there to discuss and not just for making chauvinistic remarks or keep on taking part to some sort of male reproductive organ measurement contest.
    So, from the introduction of the MiG-29A and the Su-27 there has been a constant effort to expand the flight envelope of fighters planes in all directions but above all in the direction of noise pointing , high AoA and slow speed handling.
    This kind of performances are what are called 4,5 generation in Western Europe and 4 generation+ and now even ++ in Russian, marking with those terms a difference with the previous 4 gen ones that instead was centered more on horizontal turning.
    The Hornets fall into that designation? IMHO yes but with some limitations or better said they are great in the vertical but lack in the horizontal and kinematic part of it, hence why I called the F-35
    a plane able to roll as an F-16 in horizontal, having the instantaneous pitch and AOA of a F/A-18 and a F-15 like acceleration and vertical climb capability
    meaning it combine in itself the best capability of the US legacy fighters.

    That's a great thing in itself, given that it would take the place of such planes, just worth to mention that such a flight envelope is nothing new or unheard of in this side of Atlantic by almost two or three decades, so maybe some Hyperboles contained in the flight presentation could be avoided just by keeping an eye on what happen in a wider context.

    Now anyway, it seems that the display has taken place, together with the one of the Rafale, so let's talk about the real thing or even better wait for what specialized press will write about the respective performances.
    Last edited by Marcellogo; 21st June 2017, 09:02.

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    • mig-31bm
      Rank 5 Registered User

      When someone write
      the more, the less
      and
      from Mig-29A onward
      one should understand that the point is about a continuing trend, not about the performance of just one plane or even better to the initial full scale version of it.
      That's however if he is really there to discuss and not just for making chauvinistic remarks or keep on taking part to some sort of male reproductive organ measurement contest.
      So, from the introduction of the MiG-29A and the Su-27 there has been a constant effort to expand the flight envelope of fighters planes in all directions but above all in the direction of noise pointing , high AoA and slow speed handling.
      That not the same as your original post. You said F-35 has many great capabilities of US fighters combined but the rest of the world enjoyed the same capabilities from Mig-29A onwards. That is like saying PAK-FA has good high speed performance but the US already enjoyed similar capabilities from F-15A onwards


      This kind of performances are what are called 4,5 generation in Western Europe and 4 generation+ and now even ++ in Russian, marking with those terms a difference with the previous 4 gen ones that instead was centered more on horizontal turning.
      High alpha nose authority isn't what defines the differences between 4 generation and 4.5 generation fighter. Mig-29OVT has great nose pointing due to 3d tvc but generally not considered 4.5 gen, whereas Typhoon doesn't have great high AoA nose pointing but generally considered 4.5 gen
      Last edited by mig-31bm; 21st June 2017, 09:53.

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      • Flexible
        Rank 5 Registered User



        Al Norman Q&A on the show.
        Took a year to prepare
        The point many of us (including me) were missing about the vertical take-off is the slow speed at which it does so, showcasing the raw power of the engine. That was the purpose of that move.
        Of course other planes do vertical take-off's as well, but they typical build up speed first. The F-35 doesn't, it goes up straight after the wheels clear the runway.

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        • Marcellogo
          Rank 5 Registered User

          @MiG-31bm.
          That not the same as your original post. You said F-35 has many great capabilities of US fighters combined but the rest of the world enjoyed the same capabilities from Mig-29A onwards. That is like saying PAK-FA has good high speed performance but the US already enjoyed similar capabilities from F-15A onwards
          To say it all what you say it's more than true: the F-15A has a maximum velocity superior to all the planes around (ok, all fighters because the Foxbat and the Foxhould are all another ballpark) so it is the true Paragon in this single characteristic.
          It is not that because it came from America that I would not recognize its own peculiar qualities out of spite.


          About the F-35 I would frankly be surprised if a plane that first flied in 2006 had not a flight performance envelope comparable or even superior to planes that are around from thirdy years ago onward.
          First plane to have a comparable (note that the word doesn't means identical) envelope was, as far I know the Mig-29, someone contested that about the max AoA and other replied better that I can ever do, so let's skip tha A model of Fulcrum for cut as long story short and let's say that the first one was the Su-27 and the F/A-18 that has those high AOA characteristics although being limited to 7,5 g in the horizontal, came immediately after.
          Last edited by Marcellogo; 21st June 2017, 15:40.

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          • haavarla
            Rank 5 Registered User

            MiG-29 has hydraulic controls and a SAU-451 three-axis autopilot but, unlike the Su-27, no fly-by-wire control system. Nonetheless, it is very agile, with excellent instantaneous and sustained turn performance, high-alphacapability, and a general resistance to spins. The airframe consists primarily of aluminum with some composite materials, and is stressed for up to 9 g (88 m/s) maneuvers. The controls have "soft" limiters to prevent the pilot from exceeding g and alpha limits, but the limiters can be disabled manually.


            How hard is it to understand that the G and Alpha limiter on Mig-29A was not dictated by any aerodynamical limitation but by its simplistic Flight Control System design.

            The Mig-29 was planed and deviced as a far cheaper and less sophisticated jet over its larger, more expensive and complex Su-27.

            So the nonsens that the Mig-29 was had poor nose autority is pure garbage!
            It seems i have to do this one more time.. let me be more presise. The G/Alpha limiter function was not to damage the jet, when it operated above Corner speed, IMO flying up the Mach Number.
            But when it slowed down below Mach 0.4, it was easy to disengage the alpha limiter and here is all the tales about Mig-29 nose pointing autority being told by countless people, including F-16 pilots whom flew against it.
            Thanks

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            • SpudmanWP
              Rank 5 Registered User

              Rockwell Collins prototypes fix for F-35 green glow

              Lockheed Martin recently tested a prototype from Rockwell Collins that could solve the F-35’s helmet-mounted display “green glow” issue, F-35 programme Jeff Babione told reporters at the Paris air show this week.

              Pilots on the Joint Strike Fighter have struggled with a green glow created by light from the cockpit avionics display, which leaks into the HMD and affects visual acuity, distracting pilots on night landings during carrier qualifications.

              The Gen III HMDS is a joint venture between Collins and Elbit Systems. Collins is now using organic LED (OLED) – similar to technology used in cell phones and televisions but in a micro-display configuration, according to Lockheed – to solve the green glow problem.

              “It effectively eliminates the green glow phenomenon caused by the current display technology’s low contrast ratio,” a Lockheed spokesman says. “We are working on a flight clearance to use the prototype during carrier qualifications this fall for an evaluation of pilot workload reduction while landing on the carrier at night.”

              Collins engineers were working on technology for displays in low light conditions before Lockheed approached them, says Dave Schreck, vice president and general manager, airborne solutions for government systems at Rockwell Collins. However, the OLED solution is not yet ready for the Gen III helmet and the system is currently around a technology readiness level of six, he says.

              “It’s been shown relevant in an operational environment,” he says. “I think we’re getting to the point where it definitely shows promise.”
              https://www.flightglobal.com/news/ar...35-gre-438687/
              "The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."

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              • bring_it_on
                2005-year of the RAPTOR!!

                A few shots of the Fort Worth plant posted recently on LMAs Flickr Page
                Attached Files
                Old radar types never die; they just phased array

                Comment

                • mig-31bm
                  Rank 5 Registered User

                  How hard is it to understand that the G and Alpha limiter on Mig-29A was not dictated by any aerodynamical limitation but by its simplistic Flight Control System design.

                  The Mig-29 was planed and deviced as a far cheaper and less sophisticated jet over its larger, more expensive and complex Su-27.

                  So the nonsens that the Mig-29 was had poor nose autority is pure garbage!
                  It seems i have to do this one more time.. let me be more presise. The G/Alpha limiter function was not to damage the jet, when it operated above Corner speed, IMO flying up the Mach Number.
                  But when it slowed down below Mach 0.4, it was easy to disengage the alpha limiter and here is all the tales about Mig-29 nose pointing autority being told by countless people, including F-16 pilots whom flew against it.
                  Su-27 has FBW but still have the same 26 AoA limit, i don't deny that they can both excess that limit but that doesn't necessarily mean they are very controllable at that point. Take the F-18E as example:
                  In terms of high angle of attack (AOA) performance, Flynn says the F-35 is better than the Boeing F/A-18E/F, even though the Super Hornet is capable of reaching higher angles than the JSF's limit of 50. "We are better than any airplane out there," says Flynn, a veteran Canadian Forces CF-18 Hornet pilot who has also flown thrust-vectored prototype variants of the F-16 and F/A-18 Hornet at NASA. "You can go to higher degrees of angle-of-attack in the F/A-18, the flight control system will not limit you, but that's not necessarily controlled flight." In the F/A-18, Flynn says that past 50 there is a lot of very violent buffeting.
                  Flynn says. "You maneuver the airplane back and forth with amazing controllability at the highest degree of angle-of-attack, and that is not the case with the only other Western airplane that can go to high AOA, the F/A-18." The one other exception is the Raptor, which Flynn does acknowledge as having better high AOA performance than the F-35 due to its thrust vectoring capability. The Typhoon, by comparison, has a 25 AOA limit. In the F-35, Lockheed made the decision to limit the AOA to 50, but test pilots have flown the aircraft well past that.

                  The high AOA limit gives the F-35 "great" instantaneous turn performance. "We knew that 50, from our years of research, is about as far as you need to go to take advantage of the aerodynamic performance" of the jet, Flynn says. "There is no reason to be there [at extreme AOA]; you're not going to get much more capability at 75 than you would at 50." The limiter will allow an F-35 pilot to fly with "reckless abandon", which Flynn says is not possible in a Hornet because an F/A-18 can depart from controlled flight.
                  Last edited by mig-31bm; 21st June 2017, 20:40.

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                  • Ozair
                    Rank 5 Registered User

                    Originally posted by bring_it_on View Post
                    A few shots of the Fort Worth plant posted recently on LMAs Flickr Page
                    Very impressive, thanks for posting.

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                    • JSR
                      JSR
                      Rank 5 Registered User

                      Originally posted by mig-31bm View Post

                      High alpha nose authority isn't what defines the differences between 4 generation and 4.5 generation fighter. Mig-29OVT has great nose pointing due to 3d tvc but generally not considered 4.5 gen, whereas Typhoon doesn't have great high AoA nose pointing but generally considered 4.5 gen
                      MIG29OVT is 4.5G. it does not need those canards. MIG35 is 4.75 generation .

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                      • bring_it_on
                        2005-year of the RAPTOR!!

                        Old radar types never die; they just phased array

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                        • haavarla
                          Rank 5 Registered User

                          Mig-31bm@ give it a rest..
                          The F-35 have also a "soft" limit AoA.
                          I don’t know what that is or how the flight Control System works. But if you fly at Mach 0.7 and pull hard back on the flightstick, if its slaved for a 50 AoA.. you wreck the jet.
                          Its locked at 7G and 9G, so the AoA is pretty dynamical but at the same time confined as to your airspeed.

                          This has been the case with Mig-29 and Su-27 for many decades. And while the Anti-Russian crowd have been screaming "speed is life".. kind of strange that it suddenly has ceased to be..?

                          Cecile said;
                          - Super manuverable in the poststall regime..
                          now where have i hard that before..��
                          Last edited by haavarla; 22nd June 2017, 18:24.
                          Thanks

                          Comment

                          • bring_it_on
                            2005-year of the RAPTOR!!

                            F-35Bs flight operations are temporarily suspended in Yuma Az due to an issue with ALIS.

                            The Marine Corps has suspended all Joint Strike Fighter flight operations at Marine Corps Air Station Yuma, AZ, because of concerns about the jet's logistics system.

                            Suspension of flights began today and is "very temporary," Marine Corps spokesman Maj. Kurt Stahl told Inside Defense.

                            Officials want to make sure the Autonomic Logistics Information System is working properly before flights resume, he added.

                            A Marine Corps official has called ALIS the F-35 program's "true center of gravity." The logistics system has had a troubled past, but officials said it has performed well in recent service deployments.
                            EDIT : Seems a software issue that was discovered and requires a patch :

                            "Maj. Gen. Mark Wise, commanding general of 3rd Marine Aircraft Wing, made the decision to temporarily suspend VMFA-211 flight operations pending fixes to a recent ALIS software upgrade within version 2.0.2 that has presented some anomalies," Maj. Kurt Stahl, director of public affairs with the 3rd Marine Aircraft Wing, wrote in a statement. "There is nothing wrong with the performance or safety of the aircraft itself, but it is imperative that we ensure the ground-based ALIS system is working properly before flight operations continue.
                            http://www.defensenews.com/articles/...tware-concerns
                            Last edited by bring_it_on; 22nd June 2017, 22:24.
                            Old radar types never die; they just phased array

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                            • SpudmanWP
                              Rank 5 Registered User

                              Israeli F-35s to be declared operational in December

                              The Israel Air Force (IAF) will declare its Lockheed Martin F-35A jets fully operational in December, a military source has told Jane's.

                              The operational status will apply to the five F-35s already delivered to the IAF as well as all future jets on their arrival. Israel has ordered 50 jets to equip two full squadrons, with final deliveries expected in 2022.
                              http://www.janes.com/article/71646/i...al-in-december
                              "The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."

                              Comment

                              • FBW
                                FBW
                                Rank 5 Registered User

                                Originally posted by haavarla View Post
                                Mig-31bm@ give it a rest..
                                The F-35 have also a "soft" limit AoA.
                                I don’t know what that is or how the flight Control System works. But if you fly at Mach 0.7 and pull hard back on the flightstick, if its slaved for a 50 AoA.. you wreck the jet.
                                Its locked at 7G and 9G, so the AoA is pretty dynamical but at the same time confined as to your airspeed.

                                This has been the case with Mig-29 and Su-27 for many decades. And while the Anti-Russian crowd have been screaming "speed is life".. kind of strange that it suddenly has ceased to be..?��
                                Haavarla give it a rest, your talking out your rear. There is a difference between a DFCS and the hydraulic/pneumatic flight control system on the mig.

                                The mig AoA feedback system was so the pilot didn't stall the jet at low speeds. At high speed the Mig-29 was not even going to approach 26 degrees AoA because the G limit was well below 9 above Mach .8. Deal with it. The mig-29 didn't have FBW and due to that was directinally unstable above 26 degees at low speed (we are talking Mig-29A). I can post the description of the AoA warning system if you like, it's on the manual. For once, it would be nice if you didn't make assumptions and disrupt a thread with your unsupported opinions. BTW, the Mig-29's 26 degree AoA warning system was impressive and the jet could clearly exceed that safely in the hands of an experienced pilot who understood the Mig's stall characteristics. But it was there for a reason. Move on.
                                Last edited by FBW; 23rd June 2017, 03:25.

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                                • mig-31bm
                                  Rank 5 Registered User

                                  @haavarla
                                  The F-35 have also a "soft" limit AoA.
                                  I don’t know what that is or how the flight Control System works. But if you fly at Mach 0.7 and pull hard back on the flightstick, if its slaved for a 50 AoA.. you wreck the jet.
                                  Its locked at 7G and 9G, so the AoA is pretty dynamical but at the same time confined as to your airspeed.
                                  Why do you keep talking about high AoA at high air speed while the point is clearly about nose authority at high AoA, low speed?
                                  Flynn says. "You maneuver the airplane back and forth with amazing controllability at the highest degree of angle-of-attack, and that is not the case with the only other Western airplane that can go to high AOA, the F/A-18." The one other exception is the Raptor, which Flynn does acknowledge as having better high AOA performance than the F-35 due to its thrust vectoring capability. The Typhoon, by comparison, has a 25 AOA limit. In the F-35, Lockheed made the decision to limit the AOA to 50, but test pilots have flown the aircraft well past that.


                                  @haavarla
                                  And while the Anti-Russian crowd have been screaming "speed is life".. kind of strange that it suddenly has ceased to be..?
                                  For cannon dogfight, speed is still very important, post stall is only a part of the envelope, but F-35 isn't inferior in this aspect either as its subsonic acceleration is even better than Su-35, F-16.

                                  Comment

                                  • FBW
                                    FBW
                                    Rank 5 Registered User

                                    Btw, Haavarla. You show an astounding lack of understanding how a DFCS works. The "g demand systems" don't have a soft stop like the Mig. The system is monitoring the jet's weight, load, stores. The pilot can pull back on the stick or throw it to the side as hard as they want and the FCS will only allow a pitch, roll, yaw rate within the limits.

                                    Sure abrupt movements, such as a hard roll at high AoA can exceed the limits, but only momentarily. That is the reason for those systems.

                                    Comment

                                    • haavarla
                                      Rank 5 Registered User

                                      Why do you keep talking about high AoA at high air speed while the point is clearly about nose authority at high AoA, low speed?
                                      For cannon dogfight, speed is still very important, post stall is only a part of the envelope, but F-35 isn't inferior in this aspect either as its subsonic acceleration is even better than Su-35, F-16.
                                      I would agree. But over the 10 year or so i've been on this forum i have good memories about all the statements about Flankers & Migs going post stall on Airshows.. being called up as completely useless, sitting duck, aircraft going ballistic getting plucked down, yada yada yada..
                                      All this would also apply to F-35 sitting on its @ss in sub 100kt speed.
                                      Thanks

                                      Comment

                                      • haavarla
                                        Rank 5 Registered User

                                        Btw, Haavarla. You show an astounding lack of understanding how a DFCS works. The "g demand systems" don't have a soft stop like the Mig. The system is monitoring the jet's weight, load, stores. The pilot can pull back on the stick or throw it to the side as hard as they want and the FCS will only allow a pitch, roll, yaw rate within the limits.

                                        Sure abrupt movements, such as a hard roll at high AoA can exceed the limits, but only momentarily. That is the reason for those systems.
                                        You just repeated me..

                                        On the Mig-29 9.12 there was something the pilots called the "kickback" when they went extreeme AoA(28 limit). The FCS on Mig would correct the elevators in an instant, and the mig pilot could feel this force on the flightstick

                                        Its in principle the same with F-35. Just that its a fully digital FBW, where it makes the jet much more care free in handeling, and it would probably unlock the AoA limit when the jet speed drops low, its a gradual AoA increase.
                                        I understand this quite well.

                                        For the Mig pilot, you would have to flip a switch.
                                        Well its what you get with a 40 year difference time span. No big deal.

                                        Lets wait for the Mig-35 at MAKS in August. We just might get to see some "new stuff" as they might have expanded the control Autority of the jet since Its still being tested.
                                        Last edited by haavarla; 23rd June 2017, 08:03.
                                        Thanks

                                        Comment

                                        • bring_it_on
                                          2005-year of the RAPTOR!!

                                          Raytheon SDB II F-35 Wind Tunnel Testing. OT&E is currently scheduled to run from December/2017 through November 2018 followed by F-15E platform specific IOC in late 2018 or early 2019. F-35B and F-35C IOC is scheduled for January, 2022 and the JPO is said to be working to get the F-35A within that schedule as well (it was earlier planned to IOC a year later).


                                          Video report form PAS HERE
                                          Attached Files
                                          Last edited by bring_it_on; 23rd June 2017, 10:46.
                                          Old radar types never die; they just phased array

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