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  • Levsha
    Rank 5 Registered User
    • Jan 2006
    • 2831

    Originally posted by MSphere View Post
    Hmm. A surprisingly high number of spare radars (9), especially considering it's an AESA, which is not supposed to be maintenance intensive..
    Almost all equipment is very abundant, but at the same time, only eight CFTs.. This listing is kind of illogical, IMHO.
    The order is for 32 F/A-18E and 8 F/A-18F - so just I spare radar set.

    BTW, MiG-35s do not cost 17 million USD a pop - not on this planet anyway.

    Comment

    • MSphere
      Senior Member
      • Feb 2010
      • 8983

      Originally posted by Levsha View Post
      The order is for 32 F/A-18E and 8 F/A-18F - so just I spare radar set.
      Sorry, I have completely missed the eight F/A-18Fs written there ! Now it all makes sense, thanks.

      Originally posted by Levsha View Post
      BTW, MiG-35s do not cost 17 million USD a pop - not on this planet anyway.
      Well, for Russian VKS the planes are actually denominated in Rubles. The flyaway price for one MiG-35 is ~1 billion RUB. In 2013 it was around $32 mil, today it's around $17 mil.
      Last edited by MSphere; 6th January 2017, 21:09.

      Comment

      • SpudmanWP
        Rank 5 Registered User
        • Jan 2009
        • 5283

        Originally posted by MSphere View Post
        Hmm. A surprisingly high number of spare radars (9), especially considering it's an AESA, which is not supposed to be maintenance intensive..
        Almost all equipment is very abundant, but at the same time, only eight CFTs.. This listing is kind of illogical, IMHO.
        The only "not supposed to be maintenance intensive" part of the radar with respect to an AESA radar is the antenna. The rest of the package (ie all the LRUs like power generators, signal generators, processors, etc) would have the same relative failure rate as previous MSA radars.

        As far as the CFTs go.. It's only Kuwait, where are they going to go?

        Wait.. Super hornets dont's have CFTs. I think someone got The F-18 confused with the F-16
        Last edited by SpudmanWP; 6th January 2017, 21:52.
        "The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."

        Comment

        • MSphere
          Senior Member
          • Feb 2010
          • 8983

          Originally posted by SpudmanWP View Post
          The only "not supposed to be maintenance intensive" part of the radar with respect to an AESA radar is the antenna. The rest of the package (ie all the LRUs like power generators, signal generators, processors, etc) would have the same relative failure rate as previous MSA radars.
          This has already been clarified, it's 41 radars for 32+8 aircraft, that makes sense.

          Originally posted by SpudmanWP View Post
          As far as the CFTs go.. It's only Kuwait, where are they going to go?
          Wait.. Super hornets dont's have CFTs. I think someone got The F-18 confused with the F-16
          Well, it clearly says eight conformal fuel tanks.. maybe it's for the Fs only?

          Comment

          • Vanshilar
            Rank 5 Registered User
            • Nov 2015
            • 113

            Originally posted by MSphere View Post
            Well, it clearly says eight conformal fuel tanks.. maybe it's for the Fs only?
            It's possible it's for the F model, or just that Kuwait figures it doesn't need them most of the time, but it'd be nice to have.

            It does mean that one of the Advanced Super Hornet features now has a buyer though, so it'll actually be produced -- which bodes well for the Super Hornet program lasting longer. (It's also possible that part of the cost of the deal also includes the cost of developing the production model, rather than the prototypes to date.)

            Comment

            • KGB
              KGB
              Senior Member
              • Mar 2016
              • 1426

              Originally posted by MSphere View Post
              Sorry, I have completely missed the eight F/A-18Fs written there ! Now it all makes sense, thanks.


              Well, for Russian VKS the planes are actually denominated in Rubles. The flyaway price for one MiG-35 is ~1 billion RUB. In 2013 it was around $32 mil, today it's around $17 mil.
              The US dollar is in a speculative bubble right now so it is putting dollar prices out of kilter. The UK pound sterling is "at 31 year lows" compared to the USD too. So if we took a basket of the worlds currencies (Yuan Pound Euro) and priced the VKS in that now, it probably wouldn't be any different than 32 million dollars in 2013.

              When this USD bubble ends the way all bubbles do, the dollar price of a VKS will likely be 42-52 million USD.
              Last edited by KGB; 7th January 2017, 00:04.

              Comment

              • FBW
                FBW
                Rank 5 Registered User
                • Dec 2011
                • 3291

                Originally posted by MSphere View Post
                Well, for Russian VKS the planes are actually denominated in Rubles. The flyaway price for one MiG-35 is ~1 billion RUB. In 2013 it was around $32 mil, today it's around $17 mil.
                That is an interesting theory, with one major problem.....inflation. If a Mig-35 cost 1 billion roubles in 2013, with inflation (which was running 11-12% in Russia during the fall of the Rouble), it will cost the equivalent of a billion roubles in 2013 (or more) due to inflation.

                Comment

                • JSR
                  JSR
                  Rank 5 Registered User
                  • Aug 2011
                  • 4951

                  Inflation is about 6℅ but real improvements are in worker productivity, robotics and energy prices to run factories are 1/3 of Europe. Than you can add lower housing, lower taxes and material costs. The price shouldn't be that much different in rouble. Sukhoi Superjet even with 50℅ imported components still half the price of Embarer despite much lower production rate and newer technologies.

                  Comment

                  • KGB
                    KGB
                    Senior Member
                    • Mar 2016
                    • 1426

                    Originally posted by FBW View Post
                    That is an interesting theory, with one major problem.....inflation. If a Mig-35 cost 1 billion roubles in 2013, with inflation (which was running 11-12% in Russia during the fall of the Rouble), it will cost the equivalent of a billion roubles in 2013 (or more) due to inflation.
                    He wasn't tabling a theory. Those were the numbers. Those were the exchange rates. Inflation is priced into the exchange rate. The central bank fought off that inflation and stabilized the Ruble.

                    Russian central bank raises interest rate to 17% to prevent rouble's ...
                    https://www.theguardian.com › World › Russia

                    Comment

                    • MSphere
                      Senior Member
                      • Feb 2010
                      • 8983

                      Originally posted by FBW View Post
                      That is an interesting theory, with one major problem.....inflation. If a Mig-35 cost 1 billion roubles in 2013, with inflation (which was running 11-12% in Russia during the fall of the Rouble), it will cost the equivalent of a billion roubles in 2013 (or more) due to inflation.
                      Well, that would be a pure speculation on my part.. Those MiG-29SMTs have already been delivered, I presume the prices have remained unchanged.. The production of the MiG-35s has already started, if there's a new or a revised contract, i will post it here..

                      Comment

                      • nastle
                        Rank 5 Registered User
                        • Feb 2005
                        • 537

                        What was the price of mig 23 in the 80s ?
                        And the price of a F16 in the 80s

                        Comment

                        • Vanshilar
                          Rank 5 Registered User
                          • Nov 2015
                          • 113

                          You can try to split up the different parts of the deals if they're known. For example, the India Rafale deal's breakdown is:

                          7.87 billion euros for 36 Rafales, consisting of:
                          3.42 billion euros for the 36 airplanes (so this should be flyaway)
                          1.8 billion euros for support and infrastructure
                          1.7 billion euros for India-specific changes on the aircraft
                          710 million euros for the weapons package
                          353 million euros for performance-based logistics support

                          I don't know why but that comes out to 7.983 billion euros, not 7.87 billion euros, but that's what's stated in the DefenseNews article: http://www.defensenews.com/articles/...e-fighter-jets

                          Assuming the article's conversion of 7.87 billion euros to $8.85 billion, this means:
                          $3.84 billion for 36 Rafale planes ($107 million each)
                          $2.02 billion for support and infrastructure
                          $1.91 billion for India-specific changes on the aircraft ($53 million each -- but this should not be considered part of the plane's flyaway cost because they are specific to India; other countries may not have the same changes and India probably would have had them with any other plane)
                          $796 million for the weapons package
                          $396 million for performance-based logistics support

                          For U.S. planes sold to the U.S. government, it's relatively easy to look up via Senate reports and the like, such as here:

                          http://www.fi-aeroweb.com/Defense-Sp...l#Top-Programs

                          For example, the F-35A is given as $4257 million for 43 planes ($99 million each) flyaway, with an additional $605 million for support for a total of $113 million each as its weapon system cost. Similarly, the F-35B is given as $127 million each for 16 planes flyaway, or $140 million each for weapon system cost. The F-35C is given as $167 million each for 4 planes flyaway, and $235 million each for weapon system cost, but it's because they're only procuring 4 for FY2017; for FY2016 and FY2018 where they procure 6 planes, it's around $134 million flyaway and $175 million for weapon system cost instead. For the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, it's $78 million flyaway and $93 million for weapon system cost (each).

                          Originally posted by MSphere View Post
                          Another apples-to-apples comparison would be Danish claim to purchase 27 F-35As for the price of 38 Super Hornets which would make the F-35A ~41% more expensive than the F/A-18E/F.. That would mean you could get two Gripen-Es for the price of one F-35A, a claim that makes a lot of sense to me..
                          Actually the report said 28 F-35As would cover their requirements whereas they'd need 38 Super Hornets or 34 Typhoons to cover the same requirements, not that the costs of those sets of aircraft are the same. I'm sure you know the difference between cost and capability. Source: http://www.fmn.dk/temaer/kampfly/Doc...ry5.pdf#page=8
                          Last edited by Vanshilar; 26th January 2017, 10:53.

                          Comment

                          • MSphere
                            Senior Member
                            • Feb 2010
                            • 8983

                            19x F-16 for Bahrain for $2.8 bil - ~$147 mil unit price.. no further specifics as of yet

                            http://www.defensenews.com/articles/...rings-attached

                            Comment

                            • paralay
                              Rank 5 Registered User
                              • Aug 2005
                              • 1398

                              Originally posted by nastle View Post
                              What was the price of mig 23 in the 80s ?
                              And the price of a F16 in the 80s
                              MiG-23: 2 - 2.5 million rubles
                              export price - 3.6 - 6 million $.

                              Comment

                              • KGB
                                KGB
                                Senior Member
                                • Mar 2016
                                • 1426

                                Originally posted by Vanshilar View Post
                                You can try to split up the different parts of the deals if they're known. For example, the India Rafale deal's breakdown is:

                                7.87 billion euros for 36 Rafales, consisting of:
                                3.42 billion euros for the 36 airplanes (so this should be flyaway)
                                1.8 billion euros for support and infrastructure
                                1.7 billion euros for India-specific changes on the aircraft
                                710 million euros for the weapons package
                                353 million euros for performance-based logistics support

                                I don't know why but that comes out to 7.983 billion euros, not 7.87 billion euros, but that's what's stated in the DefenseNews article: http://www.defensenews.com/articles/...e-fighter-jets

                                Assuming the article's conversion of 7.87 billion euros to $8.85 billion, this means:
                                $3.84 billion for 36 Rafale planes ($107 million each)
                                $2.02 billion for support and infrastructure
                                $1.91 billion for India-specific changes on the aircraft ($53 million each -- but this should not be considered part of the plane's flyaway cost because they are specific to India; other countries may not have the same changes and India probably would have had them with any other plane)
                                $796 million for the weapons package
                                $396 million for performance-based logistics support

                                For U.S. planes sold to the U.S. government, it's relatively easy to look up via Senate reports and the like, such as here:

                                http://www.fi-aeroweb.com/Defense-Sp...l#Top-Programs

                                For example, the F-35A is given as $4257 million for 43 planes ($99 million each) flyaway, with an additional $605 million for support for a total of $113 million each as its weapon system cost. Similarly, the F-35B is given as $127 million each for 16 planes flyaway, or $140 million each for weapon system cost. The F-35C is given as $167 million each for 4 planes flyaway, and $235 million each for weapon system cost, but it's because they're only procuring 4 for FY2017; for FY2016 and FY2018 where they procure 6 planes, it's around $134 million flyaway and $175 million for weapon system cost instead. For the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, it's $78 million flyaway and $93 million for weapon system cost (each).



                                Actually the report said 28 F-35As would cover their requirements whereas they'd need 38 Super Hornets or 34 Typhoons to cover the same requirements, not that the costs of those sets of aircraft are the same. I'm sure you know the difference between cost and capability. Source: http://www.fmn.dk/temaer/kampfly/Doc...ry5.pdf#page=8
                                Treaty ally costs are not the same thing as an export price. F-35's from the US to Canada is not apples to apples as su 30MKI from Russia to Algeria

                                Comment

                                • Ozair
                                  Rank 5 Registered User
                                  • Oct 2015
                                  • 821

                                  Originally posted by KGB View Post
                                  Treaty ally costs are not the same thing as an export price. F-35's from the US to Canada is not apples to apples as su 30MKI from Russia to Algeria
                                  With respect to F-35 all partner nations pay the same price, whether that is for 20 or 2000. The only difference is the cost changes per year they purchase.

                                  If you are not a partner nation, then you pay a potentially higher price but if purchased via FMS the aircraft price only increases by approx 6%.

                                  Comment

                                  • Y-20 Bacon
                                    Senior Member
                                    • Apr 2013
                                    • 2176

                                    http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/f-...rticle/2613855

                                    so Trump got the F-35 down 100 million per plane

                                    Comment

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