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By: 6th November 2016 at 19:46 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
-Sure the Jag is still relevant but its not like India can spare them. If anything, India ought to be looking at what out-of-service French Mirages it can get its hands on.
UK & France already have refurbishable Jaguars in storage; not need to look to India for airframes (though Oman may be doable). The Jaguar is fairly cheap but not as cheap as sticking to lower number of aircraft types. Even if cost-effective support is available from India, the RAF/AdlA (especially the latter) don't have any rated pilots or trained ground crew for the type anymore either.
Besides they already have some (relatively) low cost types already available. Mirage 2000Ds for France. Upgraded Hawks for UK. And rebuilt Gripen C/Ds for Sweden.
By: 6th November 2016 at 19:57 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
-The latest Jag upgrade for India is slightly more capable than what the AdA have with the 2Kd (it's true that Weapon usage will still be a problem for Fr)
India Rafale buy is oriented toward strategic deterrence and A2A. More available Mirage airframe could help secure the next deal (the 2Kd is similar to the 2kN minus some systems - the 2N is being phased-out).
Available Typhoon MkI will help secure the next IAF buy. Their lack of readily upgradable system for A2g makes then redundant to UK and Germany. I am sure both AF will see the swap as a win-win strategy. IAF could gain immediately a potent defense picket able to complete their MKI force.
By: 6th November 2016 at 20:25 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
-The latest Jag upgrade for India is slightly more capable than what the AdA have with the 2Kd (it's true that Weapon usage will still be a problem for Fr)India Rafale buy is oriented toward strategic deterrence and A2A. More available Mirage airframe could help secure the next deal (the 2Kd is similar to the 2kN minus some systems - the 2N is being phased-out).
Available Typhoon MkI will help secure the next IAF buy. Their lack of readily upgradable system for A2g makes then redundant to UK and Germany. I am sure both AF will see the swap as a win-win strategy. IAF could gain immediately a potent defense picket able to complete their MKI force.
My country has already put 18 of them on the market, so Germany and Uk would come late anyway.
IMHO Jaguar, although a very good plane, is together with the similarly valid Su-17, Kfir and Mirage V a category of military planes, the light supersonic striker a.k.a. zoomers, that has became IMHO completely obsolete and superseded by multirole fighters, so if it is for fighting Jihadis let's go Su-25 /A-10 instead and for any other things Tornado or F-16.
Also because , after losing the one of maneouvereability with the f-16D with tanks, someone we know cannot risk to lose also the one of low quote speed with Jag.:dev2:
By: 6th November 2016 at 20:31 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
-Well, the RAF prematurely retired their Jaguar force to keep the Tornado force intact, didn't it? Don't see how they could ever be convinced to pull stored Jaguar airframes (if there are any stored) and put them through upgrades to bring them back into service. The question of leasing Jags from the IAF doesn't even arise since the IAF needs every airframe it can keep in service. 61 of the latest Jaguars are going through DARIN 3 upgrades, but there are other DARIN 2 upgraded Jags that could have been sold or leased if the IAF itself didn't want to keep them in service for as long as possible.
But I didn't understand how the French AF would benefit from a Jag force..they're upgrading their Mirage-2000Ds and those Mirages will be a more flexible and capable jet anyday.
As for Sweden, I can't see how a Jag force would make any sense for them..never operated Jags, and they have Gripen A and Cs in storage. They are struggling to find the justification to keep as many in service and storage as they can. Spending money on any other procurement is just never going to happen.
By: 6th November 2016 at 21:57 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
-But I didn't understand how the French AF would benefit from a Jag force..they're upgrading their Mirage-2000Ds and those Mirages will be a more flexible and capable jet anyday.
The 2kd is a terrain hugging aircraft with a TFR, a huge delta wing not suited for this type of OP and no... Canons. The latest Jag upgrade have radar, modern defensive and sensing suite plus... Canons. They have even a low alt optimized wing if it is ever needed.
Imagine how happy might be the Fr pilots to be asked to do gun passes with an outdated canon... Podded.
The intend of this thread is purposely to show how a defense policy somewhat articulated around an industrial lead to counter-productive losses, discontinuity in coherence, increased exposure of personals to risk, budget impasse or even exports potential decrease... And to have some fun ;)
By: 6th November 2016 at 22:09 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
-For one, Fr pilots won't be asked to do canon passes anyway... it's way too risky and, as today's politics dictate NOT to loose any crew by all possible means, they'll be dropping guided bombs and if there are none left, simply go back to base to reload. Rafales have the canon and, unless you'll forced to use it in air to air combat (basically, your missiles depleted and a bad guy still around trying to get you), they won't ever use it as well
By: 6th November 2016 at 22:22 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
-Black Archer
Yes, the choice was to retire the Jaguar or the Harrier, & the Jaguar was seen as easier to do without.
A few Jaguars were kept at Cosford for ground training. In 2007 there were reported to be 30 stored. Last year five which had been used for engineering training swapped places with five used for other training which sometimes required them to taxi, because the five used for taxiing were too worn out. In September this year taxiing was ended completely. It seems there aren't any fit even to taxi now.
AFAIK the RAF sold off most of its Jaguars years ago, & I don't think it has any left which are fit to be refurbished. Some are in museums, some in private collections.
By: 6th November 2016 at 22:31 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
-The 2kd is a terrain hugging aircraft with a TFR, a huge delta wing not suited for this type of OP and no... Canons. The latest Jag upgrade have radar, modern defensive and sensing suite plus... Canons. They have even a low alt optimized wing if it is ever needed.
But even if the Indians did lease or sell out Jaguars, they wouldn't be the upgraded airframes but the oldest and least valuable ones. As for UK, I don't think they have stored airworthy Jaguars left - just bunch of examples used in maintenance training, I believe.
Jaguar is an old style 'bomb truck', relatively simple and cost-efficient one-trick pony aircraft. But this kind of plane doesn't fit to modern requirements where you have to hit precisely and avoid losses. To be useful it needs to be upgraded heavily and then it is no longer cheap. If one for some reason would want to acquire used attack aircraft, there are better options - retired Mirages or F-16's, or recently retired French SEMs which were already upgraded to the max.
By: 6th November 2016 at 23:31 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
-The UK still declares 61 Jaguars as of January 2016.
Table 3 (Page 10)
UK Aircraft Holdings in the UK, Germany, Cyprus and Gibraltar within the scope of the Conventional Armed Forces in Europe Treaty, at 1 January each year
2009 68
2010 65
2011 66
2012 65
2013 64
2014 68
2015 68
2016 61
Serials of the 61 Jags at RAF Cosford as of March 2016. Obviously these are a mix of GR1s/GR3s/T2/T4s. I make it to be 26 GR3/GR3As.
By: 7th November 2016 at 00:20 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
-Have India gone through the upgrades with the Honeywell engines and radar? The Jaguars originally received by India did not have radar. I think it would be possible for India to sell new-build jaguars under license if built to this upgraded standard. There is no affordable 4th gen fighter on the market except for the F-16 which no one wants to buy knowing that the US will slap embargos for any reason. Performance-wise the Jaguar is equal to the Taiwanese ching kuo fighter having engines of the same power rating and yet the Jaguar has equal climb rate despite being heavier. With the upgraded engines the Jaguar would be even better. The Jaguar has proved itself numerous times in air exercises against F-16s, F-15s, etc and showed itself a worthy adversary. I think this jet would sell well in Latin America and South East Asia.
By: 7th November 2016 at 01:15 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
-Put simply it is a silly idea...
If I had a penny for every time a forum user states "Country X should buy Aircraft not in Inventory Y to solve nebulous problem Z"! :stupid:
It would take resources away from in inventory aircraft and new equipment programs to give very questionable benefits.
For the UK, France and Sweden buying second hand Jaguar would be in effect like buying a new aircraft. None of those countries have facilities to support the type or trained personnel. They would have to set those training and support streams up taking funding and people away from other programs.
By: 7th November 2016 at 05:51 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
-To lease... I would have thought that this was an English verb...
Regarding Sweden, a Jag will still be relevant (flat country + expeditionary) with the twin seater performing advanced training task (LiF) in the waiting of the T-X.
Think about it: Indian latest airframe, Indian maintenance contractor, Indian logistic... Now, please, go back to your accountancy spreadsheet and have a look at how much you can spare with such package for an increase in budget acquisition... And better export offer.
I have talked before of integrated industry in length. This is somewhat the equivalent: Swap cost of ownership with acute training, coalition participation (hidden) and scale effect.
By: 7th November 2016 at 05:56 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
-For one, Fr pilots won't be asked to do canon passes anyway... it's way too risky and, as today's politics dictate NOT to loose any crew by all possible means, they'll be dropping guided bombs and if there are none left, simply go back to base to reload. Rafales have the canon and, unless you'll forced to use it in air to air combat (basically, your missiles depleted and a bad guy still around trying to get you), they won't ever use it as well
Yes and next year, Dassault will roll out some old 152 (twin 20mmm)?
By: 7th November 2016 at 06:07 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
-My country has already put 18 of them on the market, so Germany and Uk would come late anyway.IMHO Jaguar, although a very good plane, is together with the similarly valid Su-17, Kfir and Mirage V a category of military planes, the light supersonic striker a.k.a. zoomers, that has became IMHO completely obsolete and superseded by multirole fighters, so if it is for fighting Jihadis let's go Su-25 /A-10 instead and for any other things Tornado or F-16.
Also because , after losing the one of maneouvereability with the f-16D with tanks, someone we know cannot risk to lose also the one of low quote speed with Jag.:dev2:
Indian Jag are cheap, less costly to operate and have relevant (and superior systems) than the 2Kd or even the Tornado. If we talk only about inducing more airframe to face pressure from Russia, the A2G aspect is dominant for Sweden with the Darin Jag well suited for the vast majority of it (use Jag for less demanding missions (expeditionary) and keep Grip as the bulk of your national defense + release old airframe from strategic stocks to augment the momentum of export, hence the available tech affordable with your national budget (ouch...).
By: 7th November 2016 at 07:09 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
-a 2 engine light attack plane with wholly inadequate A2A defense,
inducting this 50 year ole into service in an otherwise modern air force.
let me think about it
By: 7th November 2016 at 07:23 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
-What are the Grip generally doing among coalition... Reco.
Same for Polish F16 ;)
By: 7th November 2016 at 08:37 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
-Obtaining second type of combat a/c, even if it's an "outsource everything" type contract, costs signifant amount of money. If Swedes want to increase number of airframes in their disposal, they can simply take some of those 60 or so Gripens stored and put them back to service. If they had wanted to maintain second, more 'disposable' type for attack purposes, they could have kept the Viggens. They didn't because those old a/c were a maintenance hog compared to Gripen.
As for the UK, France and other major European countries, problem for them tends to be excess of airframes so again adding another type, even if it's cheap, doesn't make sense financially.
By: 7th November 2016 at 09:01 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
-What are the Grip generally doing among coalition... Reco.
Same for Polish F16 ;)
do you think either nation will start bombing muslims if they got jaguar ? :stupid:
By: 7th November 2016 at 10:20 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
-a 2 engine light attack plane with wholly inadequate A2A defense,
inducting this 50 year ole into service in an otherwise modern air force.let me think about it
Though, in a parallel universe where someone bought the licence for Jaguar and reengined it with F125 (Honeywell actually has brochures on it for Indian reengine proposal. They claim it can be fit even though dimenions are much different from Jaguar's original engine) - offering such a plane on the world market, complete with modern and modular avionics, could make it a very attractive and competitive option for many air forces. Either as primary (only) plane for smaller air forces, or as cheap striker for medium sized ones (like Poland?) Of course, such a parallel universe would also require no political pressure against such a competitor emerging, as well as an investor that doesn't want to earn as much money as possible. (because if it did, then it'd rather invest those billions into something else, other than reviving Jaguar)
By: 7th November 2016 at 10:27 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
-RAF Jags left at Cosford have no FI left on the wings I believe, they swopped the wings with the Omani Jaguars several years back ( as they had reached their fatigue life) (FI) to allow them to extend the Omani Jags out of service date.
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By: TomcatViP - 6th November 2016 at 19:37
Would leasing 2 squadron of Jag from the Indian AF (maintenance contracted in India) help in cutting the cost of Expeditionary deployment and secure the 200+ airframe market? Would it be a win-win strategy for UK, Fr or Sweden?
- FR: No M2Kd risible upgrade and increase in cap at a similar level of cost
- UK: Let the RAF and GAF deal with the Tornado obsolescence by focusing remaining airframe life on near peer adversary.
- Sweden: Palliate the need for more Gripen airframe and let some flows out on export.
Ultimately, will the Jag be relevant in most of the intended usage (my answer is Yes)?
Please debate peacefully.
Advice to reader: the Jag is not the car made in Britain.
Notice to user: Yes, I wake up this morning feeling like I was Bacon myself.