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By: - 18th October 2016 at 11:05 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Iam sure it can carry more than 20 flares, but iam curious where is the place that they will put the DIRCM turret
By: - 18th October 2016 at 11:15 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I would place it on the spine of the aircraft behind the cockpit.
By: - 18th October 2016 at 11:57 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Regarding DIRCM system on F-35 , this is what the turret look like , they put one on top and another on the bottom
Iam sure it can carry more than 20 flares
There is only 1 bay for flares though , much fewer than others aircraft, this is F-16 flares dispenser , if the one on F-35 is the same size then it can carry about 15 flares
Alternatively , below is the flare dispenser on F-15 , given similar size F-35 can hold about 20 flares
By: - 18th October 2016 at 12:24 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
F-35 released 18 flares in this gif
https://gfycat.com/FormalCheapApatosaur
Btw, what if those flares stacked not only side by side but also vertically?
By: - 18th October 2016 at 12:37 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
There is only 1 bay for flares though , much fewer than others aircraft
The flares bay of F-35 look wide enough, should be able to accommodate atleast 2 F-15 type flares dispenser, so that make 40 flares each side, for a total maximum of 80 flares. I think you underestimate the number of flares that F-35 can carry and overestimate the number of towed decoy that it can carry, 4 towed decoy is quite alot
By: - 18th October 2016 at 13:09 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The flares bay of F-35 look wide enough, should be able to accommodate atleast 2 F-15 type flares dispenser, so that make 40 flares each side, for a total maximum of 80 flares.
Fair point , it looks like the bay can actually hold 4 ALE-47 flares dispenser , but the flares dispenser is in one side only , the other side is for cooling exhaust and then there must be space for chaff as well.
overestimate the number of towed decoy that it can carry, 4 towed decoy is quite alot
Not really, the close up photo show 4 cross symbol next to each other horizontally
we can see that Typhoon wing tip also has 2 cross symbols ( represent 2 decoys)
Moreover the launcher on ALQ-184v9 with 4 decoys look very similar to the one on F-35
By: - 18th October 2016 at 15:44 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The F-35 carries 48 flares.
Two sides where each side of the bracket holds a 6x4 grid of flares.
On the Decoy estimate, my bet is 4 since the canister is twice as tall as it is wide then the 4 alignment markers make sense in the above photos.
By: - 18th October 2016 at 16:52 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The F-35 carries 48 flares.Two sides where each side of the bracket holds a 6x4 grid of flares.
or 24 flares + 24 chaff ?
TBH iam quite surprise by how much you can zoom in the brochure
Brite cloud decoy is said to be able to fit in standrad chaff/flares dispenser , i wondered how many can be fit in the F-35 chaff/flare dispenser
By: - 18th October 2016 at 18:04 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
F-35 flares are 1" x 1", too small for chaff (IIRC).
I don't think the F-35 has chaff for a simple reason: If the radar/missile is good enough to track a VLO target, it ain't going to be fooled by simple chaff, hence the decoy.
By: - 18th October 2016 at 18:20 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Makes sense.
Regarding the Planar array, it might be for digital signal processing with two side by side antennas using interferometry to characterize quicker a signal before it is fed in the library (faster).
By: - 18th October 2016 at 18:21 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Or maybe it ain't a radar missile and flares won't do diddly against IIR, hence the DIRCM.
By: - 18th October 2016 at 18:45 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I wonder what would be easier for the DIRCM install, popup turret, permanently expose VLO qualified turret, or keep it under an EOTS-like faceted window?
By: - 18th October 2016 at 18:55 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The turret is probably apparent just like that. You can see that the lower part is destined to be bolted on a swash plate with the swiveling head emerging above.
Then the canted line and extensive thickness of composite material should do it well.
By: - 18th October 2016 at 19:00 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I wonder what would be easier for the DIRCM install, popup turret, permanently expose VLO qualified turret, or keep it under an EOTS-like faceted window?
Spring loaded pop-up head positioned on spine behind cockpit would be my choice.
By: - 18th October 2016 at 19:06 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Zoom in BAE brochure of ASQ-239 reveal even more interesting information , the aperture of the system seem to be consist of various Vivaldi antenna next to each others, what could be the reason for that planar array configuration ? electronic beam steering ? ( so ASQ-239 itself is also an AESA jammer ?)
Given positioning on wing LE/TE I would also think active cancellation. You also have them facing in the direction where the RCS spike would be highest, i.e. perpendicular to wing/tail edges.
By: - 18th October 2016 at 19:50 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
There is only 1 bay for flares though , much fewer than others aircraft, this is F-16 flares dispenser , if the one on F-35 is the same size then it can carry about 15 flaresAlternatively , below is the flare dispenser on F-15 , given similar size F-35 can hold about 20 flares
Your second pic shows an A-10. Nevertheless, I'm pretty sure the flare dispenser bays on the F-16 and the A-10 are the same size, but you can either load them with 15 bigger flares or 30 smaller ones.
By: - 18th October 2016 at 23:03 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Regarding the Planar array, it might be for digital signal processing with two side by side antennas using interferometry to characterize quicker a signal before it is fed in the library (faster).
There is no need for more than 2 -3 antenna for interferometry though.
Given positioning on wing LE/TE I would also think active cancellation. You also have them facing in the direction where the RCS spike would be highest, i.e. perpendicular to wing/tail edges.
TBH , i dont think active cancellation is anything more than a myth , unless they can somehow predict frequency of radar pulse before hand.And to be fair , with all the requirements that would be need to perform active cancellation , idont think it can perform any better than cover pulse jamming.
By: - 18th October 2016 at 23:11 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
New question for you guys to speculate , what the heck are those diamond shape under F-35 wing ? , I thought those are antenna at first , but they are not shown on official antenna map and what frequencies (Ghz) are those band 2/3/4 ?
By: - 18th October 2016 at 23:19 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
F-35 flares are 1" x 1", too small for chaff (IIRC).I don't think the F-35 has chaff for a simple reason: If the radar/missile is good enough to track a VLO target, it ain't going to be fooled by simple chaff, hence the decoy.
Some chaff is small enough to be fitted into aircraft wing tip
http://saab.com/air/electronic-warfare/countermeasure-dispenser-systems/bol-advanced-countermeasure-dispenser/
Spring loaded pop-up head positioned on spine behind cockpit would be my choice.
Such as :
By: - 18th October 2016 at 23:19 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
They're pylon attachment points, i'd say. Just compare them with images of f-35 hauling pylons. like this one. [ATTACH=CONFIG]249081[/ATTACH]
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By: garryA - 18th October 2016 at 08:20
Not long ago , it is commonly believed that F-35 lack towed decoys and its jammer/radar can only operate in frontal sector and in X-band whereas legacy aircrafts has much better jamming coverage and frequency range. However that noition seem to be wrong according to recently surfaced information.
This came from BAE brochure of ASQ-239
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwix2P-C4uPPAhWFWhoKHbAwDZwQFgghMAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.baesystems.com%2Fen-us%2Fdownload-en-us%2F20160718215911%2F1434583878736.pdf&usg=AFQjCNG0lru4BJHco6Zoa4cP6SzJ0n_i1A&sig2=femGPVvkL5Kc1NPVqzvpjQ&bvm=bv.135974163,d.d2s
Seem like that not only F-35 can carry towed decoy (aka ALE-70 ) but ASQ-239 also has a seperate jamming capabilities seperated from APG-81
SpudmanWP himself was able to dig up further information regarding the purchase of such system:
It looks like the USN did put a contract out in April 2014 that has caused some confusion.
http://archive.defense.gov/Contracts/Contract.aspx?ContractID=5255
These two Budget docs provide a lot of clues... still digging
http://www.dtic.mil/procurement/Y2017/Navy/U_P40_0182_BSA-1_BA-1_APP-1508N_PB_2017.pdf
http://www.dtic.mil/procurement/Y2017/AirForce/U_P40_76_BSA-4_BA-7_APP-3010F_PB_2017.pdf
The program is buying 318 of them in FY2017 and has been buying them for yeays (search the budget docs for "ALE-70" and you will see them going back to 2014.
ALE-70 = Towed Decoy ($50k each)
MJU-68/69 = Flares http://www.chemring.co.uk/~/media/Files/C/Chemring-V2/PDFs/introduction-to-chemring-for-investors-oct2014.pdf
CCU-168 = Impulse cartridge for the flares https://govtribe.com/project/13-pn-8385852-2-ccu-168b-impulse-cartridge/activity
MJU-61/64 = also flares (4 differenc kinds?)
Absence of chaff info is odd....
This tidbit from the FY2017 budget (looks like the ALE-70 is in Block 2B/3i already:
[quote](14) ALE-70 FY 2015 quantities increased from PB 2016 to accommodate F-35B IOC. FY 2017 quantity change from PB 2016 due to revised F-35B delivery schedule.
Upon closer look , we was able to find where the flares and towed decoy bay located on F-35:
A = Fiber optic towed decoy (ALE-70) dispenser door
F (x2) = Flare doors
Here are some photos of F-35 with flares bay door open , you can see that the door open vertically and flares ejected vertically
Here are some photos of F-35 with towed decoy bay open and when the launcher is removed , you can see that the bay open horizontally
Zoom in BAE brochure of ASQ-239 reveal even more interesting information , the aperture of the system seem to be consist of various Vivaldi antenna next to each others, what could be the reason for that planar array configuration ? electronic beam steering ? ( so ASQ-239 itself is also an AESA jammer ?)
Now on to the discussion part :
How many flares and towed decoys do you think F-35 can carry ? , it seem to be that it can carry about 4 towed decoys probably about 10 -20 flares.
Second question (this one for someone interested in electromagnetic physics or math), can a VLO aircraft achieve same effect using terrain bounce jamming vs normal aircraft using direct path jamming ?
