Chinese air power thread 18

[LMFS]

Those pods under the wings, couldn't they be some kind of range-finding IRST? This would be a very interesting development in order to passively target other planes beyond the reach of laser range-finder...

[LMFS]

With the failure of the Su-57. I see few other options for the Russian Air Force and Navy but the J-31. That said, any Russian Version of the J-31. Could easily include a fair number of Russian Components like the RD-93's (turbofans) along with Avionics and Weapons. This should make it far more palatable to Russian Pride.


Honestly, while some think the idea in crazy! Yet, when asked for a plausible alternative. The response is usually silence.....

Different thread, same stunt

The silence is due to stupor my friend. For you insisting in not seeing the obvious and keeping your J-31 running gag going. Again: noooooo, they will not buy a crappy Chinese medium fighter, they will buy their heavy, supercruising, long range, manoeuvrable high-payload fighter in which they have invested billions and 20 years of work. But this, when they deem it is the right time, not when US zealots order it.

[stealthflanker]

IIRC, F-35 and J-31 are roughly the same size with F-31 slightly thicker.
do you think their radar performer will be similar

Can't really say. It's eventually down to how much they spend on the cooling. Anyone having more excess cooling capacity will have better radar or more "headroom" to get better in the future.
I would say tho the current F-35 will have the processing and power aperture edge as it's lot more mature and use state of the art module.

[garryA]

Can't really say. It's eventually down to how much they spend on the cooling. Anyone having more excess cooling capacity will have better radar or more "headroom" to get better in the future.
I would say tho the current F-35 will have the processing and power aperture edge as it's lot more mature and use state of the art module

I think F-35 should have better cooling since it carry more fuel and apparently have bigger cooling vents,
Is your figure with Pd = 90 or Pd = 50?

[stealthflanker]

I think F-35 should have better cooling since it carry more fuel and apparently have bigger cooling vents,
Is your figure with Pd = 90 or Pd = 50?

Which figure ? The recent one i posted was mix. Only those having (R90) is 90%. Rest are taken from open source with no adjustment. Recently however i decided to cut down everything to 90% Detection probability to give a more "standardized" looks.

[garryA]

Which figure ? The recent one i posted was mix. Only those having (R90) is 90%. Rest are taken from open source with no adjustment. Recently however i decided to cut down everything to 90% Detection probability to give a more "standardized" looks.

The one for J-31 i meant

[stealthflanker]

The one for J-31 i meant

The one for J-31 i posted in facebook was early version. the J-31 radar itself was of course 90%. But the other radar is not yet "normalized" to Pd 90%



As you see only Irbis and APG-83 are normalized.

[latenlazy]

The one for J-31 i posted in facebook was early version. the J-31 radar itself was of course 90%. But the other radar is not yet "normalized" to Pd 90%



As you see only Irbis and APG-83 are normalized.

And you’re getting your figures for the J-31 where exactly?

[stealthflanker]

And you’re getting your figures for the J-31 where exactly?

That's my what if estimate. Based on the kind of engine it has.

As seen it has 2 RD-93/WS-13 Which would mean it would be in about MiG-35 or F-18 in weight class. From there one can work out what kind of radar it has. The nose will likely accommodate an AESA with about 60-70 cm in diameter. I took the 60 cm one and then frequency assumption would be 11 GHz which should be reasonable. With that in mind finding the number of modules is the matter of assumption of antenna face filling. i took 90% There the value of 1452 Elements can be found.

Now we only need the cooling capacity of the array. Assuming MiG-35 weight class. It would have about 7.9 kW/sqm of cooling capacity. Finding the possible radiated power per element would then be only require the assumption of possible PAE Which i choose to be 33%. Should be reasonable for Class A Amplifier, (not the most efficient but the most linear with little to no corruption to frequency) The radiated power can then be found to be 6 Watt/ module.

The rest of estimates goes down with Radar Range equation.

[Scooter]

The only plausible alternative is Su-57. and the plane regardless how many being bought and what not, the plane is still in active development. and you also neglect traditional dynamics of Russian aircraft industries. Where there is a clear distinction on who build what. We know Su-57 is heavy fighter... so the job will go to Sukhoi, which later bought engine from either Salyut or Saturn and rated for the job. To take Su-57 job is basically a new aircraft, something bigger than J-31 and can take the Saturn or Salyut engine.

RD-93 in other hand is Klimov's product, being Klimov it would means the job will be for MiG and We all here know MiG no longer in business in making heavy fighters. And Russia doesn't seem to think of stealthy light/medium fighter.

This brought us to J-20 but then, can it take what Su-57 meant for ? Say built from the ground to accommodate multiple AESA arrays. This look simple but, it's actually serious matter as it involve complex work on rebuilding the cooling and power generation and to provide space. And then J-20 use variant of AL-31FN which, differs from AL-31F and AL-41F1 in terms of gearbox placement and general size. This isnt trivial too as that would means if Russian wants to actually upgrade the thing, adding their 2nd stage engine. They would have to develop a new version with same gearbox placement as FN. and let's not forget weapons compatibility like R-37M or cruise missile, this might entail development of new array of weapons too.

I don't see those will help Russians... not at all.

Sorry, the issues with the Su-57 can't be resolved or it would have been redesigned. So, some need to come down to reality and admit it is dead. Other than being used as a "testbed" for a future 6th Generation Design or for Russian Propaganda! (likely both)

Either way it isn't going to be produced on a large scale. Remember, Russia is the largest country on the planet. So, how many "Stealth Fighters" does it need to protect such a vast country. While, supporting the Russian Army and Navy!

Regardless, it all comes back to Russia no longer has a choice. Unless, it wants to be regarded on the world stage as a minor power.....

[stealthflanker]

Sorry, the issues with the Su-57 can't be resolved or it would have been redesigned. So, some need to come down to reality and admit it is dead. Other than being used as a "testbed" for a future 6th Generation Design or for Russian Propaganda! (likely both)

Either way it isn't going to be produced on a large scale. Remember, Russia is the largest country on the planet. So, how many "Stealth Fighters" does it need to protect such a vast country. While, supporting the Russian Army and Navy!

Regardless, it all comes back to Russia no longer has a choice. Unless, it wants to be regarded on the world stage as a minor power.....

The problem is that None of those can be solved by buying J-31 or J-20. and hell we don't even know how many would actually be procured and whether redesign would happen. Regarding redesign. It's not like it's an Alien concept to Russia anyway as demonstrated on how T-10 becomes T-10-17.

[Scooter]

Different thread, same stunt

The silence is due to stupor my friend. For you insisting in not seeing the obvious and keeping your J-31 running gag going. Again: noooooo, they will not buy a crappy Chinese medium fighter, they will buy their heavy, supercruising, long range, manoeuvrable high-payload fighter in which they have invested billions and 20 years of work. But this, when they deem it is the right time, not when US zealots order it.

Well, get ready for a big surprise because it is coming.....


As a matter of fact don't be surprised to see Russia buying Chinese Military Hardware in the coming years! Why??? Because it just doesn't have the resources like it did back in the glory days of the Soviet Union. As a matter of fact Russia's GDP is in the range of Australia and Canada. In short it can't afford to keep up with the "Big Dogs" anymore. That is just plain............Physics

[Scooter]

The problem is that None of those can be solved by buying J-31 or J-20. and hell we don't even know how many would actually be procured and whether redesign would happen. Regarding redesign. It's not like it's an Alien concept to Russia anyway as demonstrated on how T-10 becomes T-10-17.

Sure it can as the Chinese are doing much of the development of the J-31. In addition it can be produced on a large scale and even exported. As for a total redesign of the Su-57 Russia doesn't have the time nor the money to do so. Nor, will you find a source that say it is or will.....Yet, knock your socks off if you like.

[Scooter]

That's my what if estimate. Based on the kind of engine it has.

As seen it has 2 RD-93/WS-13 Which would mean it would be in about MiG-35 or F-18 in weight class. From there one can work out what kind of radar it has. The nose will likely accommodate an AESA with about 60-70 cm in diameter. I took the 60 cm one and then frequency assumption would be 11 GHz which should be reasonable. With that in mind finding the number of modules is the matter of assumption of antenna face filling. i took 90% There the value of 1452 Elements can be found.

Now we only need the cooling capacity of the array. Assuming MiG-35 weight class. It would have about 7.9 kW/sqm of cooling capacity. Finding the possible radiated power per element would then be only require the assumption of possible PAE Which i choose to be 33%. Should be reasonable for Class A Amplifier, (not the most efficient but the most linear with little to no corruption to frequency) The radiated power can then be found to be 6 Watt/ module.

The rest of estimates goes down with Radar Range equation.

The J-31 is very similar to the TF-X or KFX in general concept. Basically an F-35 with two 4th Generation Engines.

[stealthflanker]

Sure it can as the Chinese are doing much of the development of the J-31. In addition it can be produced on a large scale and even exported. As for a total redesign of the Su-57 Russia doesn't have the time nor the money to do so. Nor, will you find a source that say it is or will.....Yet, knock your socks off if you like.

Really. ?. well talking about source.. The only source i found the Russians redesign T-10 into T-10-17 Was Midland's Famous Russian aircraft books. and That was written like decades after T-10-17 hit the sky.

Plus you haven't tell yet n how actually J-20 or J-31 can fit into whatever Russian plan or their philosophy in production. How about starting from those first ?

[stealthflanker]

The J-31 is very similar to the TF-X or KFX in general concept. Basically an F-35 with two 4th Generation Engines.

and what makes RD-93 not being 4th generation engine ? Are you trying to make your estimates ?

[Scooter]

and what makes RD-93 not being 4th generation engine ? Are you trying to make your estimates ?

I never said the RD-93 wasn't a 4th Generation Engine! What are you smoking???

[stealthflanker]

I never said the RD-93 wasn't a 4th Generation Engine! What are you smoking???

Then why bother quoting me there ? What are you trying to do ?

Do you think something off from my estimate ? Which part ? Cooling part ? Empty weight part ? Be clear. Just saying its like KFX or TFX is not clear nor even an intellectual attempt to start discussion.

[panzerfeist1]

For some reason Scooter makes me miss KGB

[Scooter]

For some reason Scooter makes me miss KGB

Sorry, that I don't fit into your "Fantasy World". I just call them as I see them. Yet, I have a pretty good record of being right.


That said, it's nothing personal and I am not trying to "offend" anyone. Just speaking my mind based on my own personal experiences.