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Chinese air power thread 18

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  • Blitzo
    Rank 5 Registered User

    Originally posted by Marcellogo View Post
    Entry in service means different thing in eastern and western practise, given that we doesn't know much about Chinese procedures, any of such announcements have to be taken with two grains of salt.
    They often mix one nomenclature with other also, see the case of LRIP J-20 that sorted out being a gross equivalent to russian state trials prototypes...
    Yes, definitely important to note. Though it's not out of any desire to deceive but rather that the Chinese words for "enter service" are literally what they mean in the loosest sense of the term i.e. that they aircraft are now received by the air force and operated and maintained by them.
    There probably are Chinese equivalents of IOC and FOC etc (of which IOC is usually the level of capability one thinks about in western military forces when a new piece of equipment enters "service"), but those are much more technical military standards which they would not openly disclose to the public.

    In this case, when they say the J-20 has entered service it likely refers to the air force receiving them and starting the Chinese equivalent of IOT&E.

    Similar to the original J-10, which entered service in 2003 for its equivalent of IOT&E, but was only considered operational (the equivalent of IOC) in 2006.

    I expect it will take a similar two or three years from when J-20 first "entered service" for it to achieve its equivalent of IOC.



    Originally posted by TomcatViP View Post
    It's all over the specialized press today. I was not that much offtrack in final
    Yes, but english language defence media are not exactly a shining example of their accuracy in reporting Chinese military developments.

    Comment

    • TomcatViP
      Rank 5 Registered User

      Originally posted by Blitzo View Post
      Yes, but english language defence media are not exactly a shining example of their accuracy in reporting Chinese military developments.
      Didn't I link a Chinese media written in English

      The South China Morning Post (SCMP) has been Hong Kong's leading English-language newspaper ever since its first issue was published on 6 November 1903. Having kept our finger on the pulse of the local community's development for more than 100 years, we have accumulated a treasure trove of information about every facet of Hong Kong.
      Last edited by TomcatViP; 12th March 2017, 19:35.

      Comment

      • Blitzo
        Rank 5 Registered User

        Originally posted by TomcatViP View Post
        Didn't I link a Chinese media written in English
        Not quite -- SCMP is a privately owned paper based in Hong Kong, not a Chinese state media outlet.

        SCMP's track record for reporting on the latest Chinese military developments is very spotty at best.

        Comment

        • Marcellogo
          Rank 5 Registered User

          Originally posted by Blitzo View Post
          Yes, definitely important to note. Though it's not out of any desire to deceive but rather that the Chinese words for "enter service" are literally what they mean in the loosest sense of the term i.e. that they aircraft are now received by the air force and operated and maintained by them.
          There probably are Chinese equivalents of IOC and FOC etc (of which IOC is usually the level of capability one thinks about in western military forces when a new piece of equipment enters "service"), but those are much more technical military standards which they would not openly disclose to the public.

          In this case, when they say the J-20 has entered service it likely refers to the air force receiving them and starting the Chinese equivalent of IOT&E.

          Similar to the original J-10, which entered service in 2003 for its equivalent of IOT&E, but was only considered operational (the equivalent of IOC) in 2006.

          I expect it will take a similar two or three years from when J-20 first "entered service" for it to achieve its equivalent of IOC.
          Yes, while a.t.c. the official entry in service of a Sov/russian plane is when its first operative unit reach the equivalent of FOC, as IOC just doesn't exist for them and LRIP the same, while contracts are afforded one batch at time.

          Comment

          • TomcatViP
            Rank 5 Registered User

            Originally posted by Blitzo View Post
            Not quite -- SCMP is a privately owned paper based in Hong Kong, not a Chinese state media outlet.

            SCMP's track record for reporting on the latest Chinese military developments is very spotty at best.
            Anyhow, the message seems to have meet adequately its public (Reuters, Def news...)

            Comment

            • Deino
              Rank 5 Registered User

              J-16s at SAC
              Attached Files
              ...

              He was my North, my South, my East and West,
              My working week and my Sunday rest,
              My noon, my midnight, my talk, my song;
              I thought that love would last forever; I was wrong.

              The stars are not wanted now; put out every one:
              Pack up the moon and dismantle the sun;
              Pour away the ocean and sweep up the woods:
              For nothing now can ever come to any good.
              -------------------------------------------------
              W.H.Auden (1945)

              Comment

              • totoro
                Rank 5 Registered User

                Originally posted by Marcellogo View Post
                Yes, while a.t.c. the official entry in service of a Sov/russian plane is when its first operative unit reach the equivalent of FOC, as IOC just doesn't exist for them and LRIP the same, while contracts are afforded one batch at time.
                1985 was what milestone for Su-27? Not FOC surely, as that was achieved around 1990. One can read about su-27 started being delivered to the air force in 1985. That would suggest that some combat capability must've been achieved by 1987 or so.

                Comment

                • TR1
                  TR1
                  http://tiny.cc/tp8kd

                  https://lenta.ru/news/2017/03/21/s400/

                  S-400 is in China.
                  sigpic

                  Comment

                  • KGB
                    KGB
                    Senior Member

                    Originally posted by Deino View Post
                    J-16s at SAC
                    They have the old school air brake.

                    Comment

                    • Marcellogo
                      Rank 5 Registered User

                      Originally posted by totoro View Post
                      1985 was what milestone for Su-27? Not FOC surely, as that was achieved around 1990. One can read about su-27 started being delivered to the air force in 1985. That would suggest that some combat capability must've been achieved by 1987 or so.
                      ? Repeat, there is not in Russian practise the habit of have an IOC and /or a LRIP phase: they begin full scale production as soon as the plane has passed the State Trials.
                      The OKB/NAO (that produce the prototypes) get in contact with the main production concern (that made serial ones) as soon as the last prototype has been produced and organize the so called first serial, a small batch of planes to optimize the subsequent ful scale production . After it they wait completion of state test, apply the latest modifications and start the full scale production of the first contracted batch.
                      Also in this there is an huge difference with western practise as there is not an overall prevision of the total numbers of plane to be produced, they order a batch at time, once one is near completion they made a contract for a new one.
                      And what you depict as a worrying thing is a.t.c. quite usual for them: first batches of both MiG-23 and -29 entered in service with the latest radar of MiG-21 and -23 respectively.
                      They just add new things, developed in the meantime at any new production batches
                      This is the reason of the huge numbers of subsequent changes in denomination of any of their models, comparable in the west just with the F-16 different block numbers.
                      Official entering in services in their praxis means just that the first operative unit reach full readiness status i.e. we are talking about unit's FOC not plane's design FOC.
                      Last edited by Marcellogo; 22nd March 2017, 08:26.

                      Comment

                      • MSphere
                        Senior Member

                        Originally posted by Marcellogo View Post
                        And what you depict as a worrying thing is a.t.c. quite usual for them: first batches of both MiG-23 and -29 entered in service with the latest radar of MiG-21 and -23 respectively.
                        The MiG-23 entered production as MiG-23S but these were never fielded operationally.
                        The MiG-29 has never used a radar from the MiG-23.

                        Comment

                        • Deino
                          Rank 5 Registered User

                          Guys ... are we still in the Chinese Air Force section ???
                          ...

                          He was my North, my South, my East and West,
                          My working week and my Sunday rest,
                          My noon, my midnight, my talk, my song;
                          I thought that love would last forever; I was wrong.

                          The stars are not wanted now; put out every one:
                          Pack up the moon and dismantle the sun;
                          Pour away the ocean and sweep up the woods:
                          For nothing now can ever come to any good.
                          -------------------------------------------------
                          W.H.Auden (1945)

                          Comment

                          • Vans
                            Rank 5 Registered User

                            Originally posted by KGB View Post
                            They have the old school air brake.
                            different center of gravity. even two seater su-35 uses an air brake.
                            but it definitely has better avionics

                            Comment

                            • Scar
                              Senior Member

                              Originally posted by Vans View Post
                              different center of gravity. even two seater su-35 uses an air brake.
                              There is no such a thing.

                              Comment

                              • Vans
                                Rank 5 Registered User

                                Originally posted by Scar View Post
                                There is no such a thing.
                                wrong

                                Click image for larger version

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                                Comment

                                • Scar
                                  Senior Member

                                  Originally posted by Vans View Post
                                  wrong
                                  Looks like you're confusing an old T-10(UB)M designed in 1980's with the actual serial-produced Su-35 which has no two seat version as we know it today.

                                  Comment

                                  • TR1
                                    TR1
                                    http://tiny.cc/tp8kd

                                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oWhRNQVoako

                                    Supposedly mil movement towards NK border? IDK. But I see BAZ trucks, looks like S-300PMU-2 units.
                                    sigpic

                                    Comment

                                    • Blitzo
                                      Rank 5 Registered User

                                      Originally posted by TR1 View Post
                                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oWhRNQVoako

                                      Supposedly mil movement towards NK border? IDK. But I see BAZ trucks, looks like S-300PMU-2 units.
                                      Unsure. There are some rather fanciful rumours of massive troop movements to the NK border but I'm pretty sure those are BS, so it's hard to differentiate between real and hoax.

                                      In this case, while the video is obviously real I'm not sure what the original date of taking it is and the location of it.


                                      That said I wouldn't be surprised if there was some level of force deployment near the border or at least heightened readiness.

                                      Comment

                                      • KGB
                                        KGB
                                        Senior Member

                                        Shes almost ready

                                        This is going to be the best looking carrier ever built

                                        Comment

                                        • Blitzo
                                          Rank 5 Registered User

                                          That's from a week or more ago. More recent pictures are here:

                                          http://forum.keypublishing.com/showt...61#post2386461

                                          Comment

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