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  • Evastun
    Rank 3 Registered User

    Chinese air power thread 18

    ok last thread got closed because people got too obsessed with length which I warned.

    I'd like to continue the conversation back to my questions about the j-31
    on first glance it looks like a reasonable airplane, but a few people here seem very unimpressed with it.

    this article
    http://us.blastingnews.com/world/201...001146327.html
    claims it'll be a better air superiority fighter than the j-20 which is more focused on long range strike
  • Rii
    Rii
    Senior Member

    #2
    No doubt it could become a highly capable mid-size VLO fighter, but by all accounts the Chinese armed forces aren't interested. And that's that.

    As for why China isn't interested in J-31, my hypothesis is that they don't believe that they will require a manned combat aircraft smaller than J-20 going forward. Or rather, what requirement remains can be filled by J-10s. Of course there are other possible interpretations.
    Last edited by Rii; 8th October 2016, 11:06.

    Comment

    • Y-20 Bacon
      Senior Member

      #3
      Originally posted by Evastun View Post
      ok last thread got closed because people got too obsessed with length which I warned.

      I'd like to continue the conversation back to my questions about the j-31
      on first glance it looks like a reasonable airplane, but a few people here seem very unimpressed with it.

      this article
      http://us.blastingnews.com/world/201...001146327.html
      claims it'll be a better air superiority fighter than the j-20 which is more focused on long range strike
      i don't know how they came to the conclusion the j-20 is a long range strike aircraft. it seems to be an interceptor.
      the j-31 has poor engine performance to be an air superiority fighter. its a heavier mig-29 with the same engines.

      Comment

      • Multirole
        Rank 5 Registered User

        #4
        The article is nonsense. You're better off forgetting everything it says and start from scratch.

        J-20 is a heavy air superiority fighter, J-31 a mid weight air superiority fighter. The best analogy is Su-27 and MiG-29. Yes the J-20 does have much more range and payload and therefore has more growth potential as a strike aircraft.

        For a geographically large country with distant threats it makes more sense to invest in the heavy fighter. Exactly the reason the Russians have negelected the Fulcrum for so long in favor of the Flanker. This had nothing to do with the Flanker being inferior at air combat maneuvering, quite the opposite.

        The J-31 is unimpressive for one reason: its an early tech demonstrator. AFAIK Shenyang never built a real prototype. The YF-22 isn't all that impressive compared to LRIP J-20s. It certainly has great potential. It is essentially what Lockheed Martin would have designed for the F-35 project if there was no VTOL requirement forcing major compromise on the design. But for it to reach its potential there is a very long road ahead and right now there's no apparent domestic interest to keep it going.
        Last edited by Multirole; 8th October 2016, 11:19.
        pb::

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        • Multirole
          Rank 5 Registered User

          #5
          As far as future air wars go it's not clear why anyone would need two types of stealth fighters. Just having one type VLO fighter with sensor superiority would give an air force a force multiplier by using legacy fighters as deep magazine operating from behind. The money for J-31s would be far more than that required to upgrade and link China's entire fleet of J-10s and J-11s as arsenal fighters.
          pb::

          Comment

          • Y-20 Bacon
            Senior Member

            #6
            Originally posted by Multirole View Post
            As far as future air wars go it's not clear why anyone would need two types of stealth fighters. Just having one type VLO fighter with sensor superiority would give an air force a force multiplier by using legacy fighters as deep magazine operating from behind. The money for J-31s would be far more than that required to upgrade and link China's entire fleet of J-10s and J-11s as arsenal fighters.
            you have a good point. the days of hi-lo may no longer be about size and range.

            j-20 and j-10s seem good. but how will shenyang survive beyond flanker clones.

            Comment

            • Evastun
              Rank 3 Registered User

              #7
              Originally posted by Multirole View Post
              The article is nonsense. You're better off forgetting everything it says and start from scratch.

              J-20 is a heavy air superiority fighter, J-31 a mid weight air superiority fighter. The best analogy is Su-27 and MiG-29. Yes the J-20 does have much more range and payload and therefore has more growth potential as a strike aircraft.

              For a geographically large country with distant threats it makes more sense to invest in the heavy fighter. Exactly the reason the Russians have negelected the Fulcrum for so long in favor of the Flanker. This had nothing to do with the Flanker being inferior at air combat maneuvering, quite the opposite.

              The J-31 is unimpressive for one reason: its an early tech demonstrator. AFAIK Shenyang never built a real prototype. The YF-22 isn't all that impressive compared to LRIP J-20s. It certainly has great potential. It is essentially what Lockheed Martin would have designed for the F-35 project if there was no VTOL requirement forcing major compromise on the design. But for it to reach its potential there is a very long road ahead and right now there's no apparent domestic interest to keep it going.
              that is sad that j-31 got so far, only to die a death with no funding

              Comment

              • Multirole
                Rank 5 Registered User

                #8
                Originally posted by Evastun View Post
                that is sad that j-31 got so far, only to die a death with no funding
                We will know more next month at the Zhuhai Airshow. Might not be dead yet but it's been read last rites.
                pb::

                Comment

                • KGB
                  KGB
                  Senior Member

                  #9
                  Originally posted by Rii View Post
                  No doubt it could become a highly capable mid-size VLO fighter, but by all accounts the Chinese armed forces aren't interested. And that's that.

                  As for why China isn't interested in J-31, my hypothesis is that they don't believe that they will require a manned combat aircraft smaller than J-20 going forward. Or rather, what requirement remains can be filled by J-10s. Of course there are other possible interpretations.
                  The J 31. Who wants it ? Anyone ? Even the China fans fully admit the 31's short comings. The concept is a good one. 2 engine F 35 sized fighter. But its reputation is in the gutter.

                  Comment

                  • Multirole
                    Rank 5 Registered User

                    #10
                    Originally posted by KGB View Post
                    The J 31. Who wants it ? Anyone ? Even the China fans fully admit the 31's short comings. The concept is a good one. 2 engine F 35 sized fighter. But its reputation is in the gutter.
                    What reputation, combat record? Has it been caught sleeping around? ��

                    Lots of countries want it. Want and affordability aren't the same thing. I want a Ferrari and a Porsche. China's fortunate enough to buy one, but maybe not both.
                    pb::

                    Comment

                    • QuantumFX
                      What?

                      #11
                      Originally posted by KGB View Post
                      The J 31. Who wants it ? Anyone ? Even the China fans fully admit the 31's short comings. The concept is a good one. 2 engine F 35 sized fighter. But its reputation is in the gutter.
                      Rumor wise PLAAF and PLAN DOES NOT want J-31. It is now said to be purely an export product designated FC-31. Even the JF-17/FC-1 is made by Chengdu (CAC) and not Shenyang (SAC). Confidence in SAC among PLAAF/PLAN is rumored to be pretty low, but SAC is said to have a lot of high-powered people including former military top brass supporting them. The fact that they got themselves in to the J-20 program as a subcontractor after handsomely losing out the J-XX competition is scary. Don't forget even with the Russians, the relationship with CAC and SAC are complete opposites. CAC has had long-term and apparently good relations with Russian industry including access to AL-31FN series 3 engines (~138kN). Compare that to SAC who has an embargo imposed by the Russians for engines. Some J-20 design & tech might have been absorbed by SAC when producing J-31. You can see multiple similarities.

                      Comment

                      • Y-20 Bacon
                        Senior Member

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Multirole View Post
                        What reputation, combat record? Has it been caught sleeping around? ��

                        Lots of countries want it. Want and affordability aren't the same thing. I want a Ferrari and a Porsche. China's fortunate enough to buy one, but maybe not both.
                        what countries want it besides Pakistan?

                        Comment

                        • Y-20 Bacon
                          Senior Member

                          #13
                          Originally posted by QuantumFX View Post
                          Rumor wise PLAAF and PLAN DOES NOT want J-31. It is now said to be purely an export product designated FC-31. Even the JF-17/FC-1 is made by Chengdu (CAC) and not Shenyang (SAC). Confidence in SAC among PLAAF/PLAN is rumored to be pretty low, but SAC is said to have a lot of high-powered people including former military top brass supporting them. The fact that they got themselves in to the J-20 program as a subcontractor after handsomely losing out the J-XX competition is scary. Don't forget even with the Russians, the relationship with CAC and SAC are complete opposites. CAC has had long-term and apparently good relations with Russian industry including access to AL-31FN series 3 engines (~138kN). Compare that to SAC who has an embargo imposed by the Russians for engines. Some J-20 design & tech might have been absorbed by SAC when producing J-31. You can see multiple similarities.
                          can't blame the Russians. SAC pirated their design.

                          Comment

                          • vario2012
                            Rank 5 Registered User

                            #14
                            You are into rumors too much.
                            Just wait for awhile.

                            Comment

                            • vario2012
                              Rank 5 Registered User

                              #15
                              China

                              Comment

                              • Y-20 Bacon
                                Senior Member

                                #16
                                Originally posted by vario2012 View Post
                                You are into rumors too much.
                                Just wait for awhile.
                                so you don't think Pakistan is interested in the J-31? ok

                                Comment

                                • Rii
                                  Rii
                                  Senior Member

                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by QuantumFX View Post
                                  The fact that they got themselves in to the J-20 program as a subcontractor after handsomely losing out the J-XX competition is scary.
                                  Why? SAC and CAC are strategic assets. You don't let one of them fall behind the other to the point of being non-competitive in future endeavours. China has the resources and internal market to support both, and therefore should do so.

                                  Comment

                                  • MadRat
                                    Rank 5 Registered User

                                    #18
                                    Hongdu is falling behind Chengdu and Shenyang. They are strategic assets, but China is anything but a strict union. Regional centers are all playing against one another jockeying for influence no different than MiG, Sukhoi, Yakovlev, Tupovlev, etc
                                    Go Huskers!

                                    Comment

                                    • QuantumFX
                                      What?

                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by MadRat View Post
                                      Hongdu is falling behind Chengdu and Shenyang. They are strategic assets, but China is anything but a strict union. Regional centers are all playing against one another jockeying for influence no different than MiG, Sukhoi, Yakovlev, Tupovlev, etc
                                      Hongdu (HAIG) is doing quite well. They have a very successful product in K-8/JL-8. L-15 has one international order and more likely to follow plus the major thing is the JL-10 entering service in 2015. Hongdu-Yakovlev CJ-7 also made its first flight this year.

                                      When it comes to major strategic projects that has full support/priority of the PLAAF, we have,

                                      CAC: J-20
                                      XAC: Y-20, H-20

                                      Comment

                                      • paralay
                                        Rank 5 Registered User

                                        #20
                                        J-20 vs J-31 difference in the flight characteristics of the aircraft is negligible, 5 - 9%

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