Indians incredibly unhappy with mig-29 and carrier

Read the forum code of contact

Member for

9 years 4 months

Posts: 269

damning report

http://www.janes.com/article/62063/indian-navy-reports-problems-with-russian-carrier-aircraft

Russia sending incomplete and untested products.
some caused by sanctions from west and ukraine, others caused by bad supply

Original post

Member for

24 years 2 months

Posts: 1,732

I'm not sure if the OP has read the full article but the issues are practically non-issues.
The MiG-29K issue is related to Ukraine not delivering parts for the radar to Russia for integration due to embargo. So India is importing them directly from Ukraine and integrating them on the flight line. Hardly any operational impact other than maybe increasing the timelines; not a big deal. That doesn't mean there aren't other issues that the IN is dealing with regarding the 29K, those issues will come out in time.

The Vikramaditya issue is that the emergency arresting system is yet to be operational on the ship. Which means that in an event where, for some reason an aircraft cant trap, it has to ditch instead of attempting a landing with the arresting system. Again not a major operational issue.

Member for

12 years 3 months

Posts: 307

damning report

http://www.janes.com/article/62063/indian-navy-reports-problems-with-russian-carrier-aircraft

Russia sending incomplete and untested products.
some caused by sanctions from west and ukraine, others caused by bad supply

Yes most of this is minor.
How many planes are in operational service without being 100% combat operational.
Even Su-35s are still being operationally modified. F-35 still not combat operational etc etc. Gives India a chance for home grown production like russia is going through with there production lines right now, causing delays to timeline

Member for

12 years 7 months

Posts: 4,731

Contracts negotiation and implementation is too long in India so its more than likely the original item may not available but most of fighters already delivered by 2014. MIG-29K is now flight testing from carrier and is getting ready for strike missions.

http://www.migavia.ru/index.php/ru/novosti/smi-o-nas/618-vzlet-nad-morem-mig-29k-usilit-boevuyu-moshch-flagmana-vmf-rossii

Member for

13 years 5 months

Posts: 9,579


The MiG-29K issue is related to Ukraine not delivering parts for the radar to Russia for integration due to embargo. So India is importing them directly from Ukraine and integrating them on the flight line. Hardly any operational impact other than maybe

What radar parts?

At the same time we are to believe Russia is getting MiG-29Ks itself, and not having the same issues (presumably, larger ones, since Ukraine wouldn't sell the parts to Russia)....nah I don't believe the whole "shipping to India and finishing construction there" story one bit.

Import substitution is one thing, but this report I find dubious, just doesn't make sense.

Also, despite the supposed ban on military cooperation, Ukrainian helicopter engines meant for military helicopters still find their way to Russia, and contact remains on a few joint aviation programs.

Member for

10 years 11 months

Posts: 2,040

yall going ape **** over the 300 of 800 word article on Janes.
What else does it say? anyone have access to the rest?

I, and most others on the board, personally felt India should've NOT bought the carrier and build their own and operate Rafales and LCAs off them.

Member for

12 years 7 months

Posts: 4,731

Ukraine is so broke at local level that they will buy what they can afford and they will sell what they can sell.

http://uatoday.tv/business/antonov-purchases-usd-8-mln-worth-of-russian-equipment-688946.html
Antonov purchases USD 8 mln worth of Russian equipment
The deal for the supply of Russian-made civil aircraft components was sealed back in September 2015

Member for

12 years 7 months

Posts: 4,731

yall going ape **** over the 300 of 800 word article on Janes.
What else does it say? anyone have access to the rest?

I, and most others on the board, personally felt India should've NOT bought the carrier and build their own and operate Rafales and LCAs off them.

That Naval LCA is non starter. limited payload, speed, range, radar power. has it lifted any loads from Carrier?. Rafale will be endless negotiations over price.

MIG-29K delivery is now ahead of schedule as India second carrier is behind schedule and is over priced.

Member for

20 years 4 months

Posts: 6,186

damning report

http://www.janes.com/article/62063/indian-navy-reports-problems-with-russian-carrier-aircraft

Russia sending incomplete and untested products.
some caused by sanctions from west and ukraine, others caused by bad supply

Reuben F Johnson quoting sources writing on Russian matters I would take that very seriously

some of his serious writes up are http://freebeacon.com/national-security/think-tank-outlines-possible-scenarios-collapse-russia/

Member for

20 years 4 months

Posts: 6,186

damning report

http://www.janes.com/article/62063/indian-navy-reports-problems-with-russian-carrier-aircraft

Russia sending incomplete and untested products.
some caused by sanctions from west and ukraine, others caused by bad supply

Reuben F Johnson quoting sources writing on Russian matters I would take that very seriously

some of his serious writes up are http://freebeacon.com/national-security/think-tank-outlines-possible-scenarios-collapse-russia/

Member for

13 years 5 months

Posts: 3,381

What radar parts?

At the same time we are to believe Russia is getting MiG-29Ks itself, and not having the same issues (presumably, larger ones, since Ukraine wouldn't sell the parts to Russia)....nah I don't believe the whole "shipping to India and finishing construction there" story one bit.

Recall the laundry list of modifications India wanted for its "off-the-shelf" Rafale purchase. Could it be that Indian MiG-29Ks are similarly different from the "baseline" model that Russian Navy is receiving, and that Russia no longer has access to those parts?

Member for

13 years 5 months

Posts: 9,579

Russian MiG-29KR came later, they are functionally identical aside from a few typical substitutions (IFF, etc).
Which is why the Ukrainian angle makes no sense, they could just source the replacement parts that Russia is using for its own MiG-29KRs (does anyone even know what/if anything Ukrainian is on the K/KUB?). Indian K's don't have any extra equipment that Ukraine produces AFAIK.

Makes me doubt the whole thing, and given the author, the tendency for "anonymous Indian officials" to be.....inventive to put it mildly.....nonsense IMO.

You don't just plug in a few components after delivery to the customer. What would make more sense is shipping the component from India to Russia, and wrapping it all up in the actual assembly line.

Member for

12 years 6 months

Posts: 374

(does anyone even know what/if anything Ukrainian is on the K/KUB?). Indian K's don't have any extra equipment that Ukraine produces AFAIK.

As you say Russian and Indian MiG-29Ks should be almost identical. One of the advantage for the Russian Navy in acquiring MiG-29Ks was that the aircraft was already in production.

Member for

14 years 1 month

Posts: 8,850

I am still looking for the words "incredibly unhappy" in that "damning" report.. :confused:

Member for

9 years 10 months

Posts: 612

I am still looking for the words "incredibly unhappy" in that "damning" report.. :confused:

This intentionally bombastic thread should probably be deleted as the source article doesn't seem to justify a separate thread and this was first posted in the Indian Navy news thread anyway.

Member for

14 years 1 month

Posts: 8,850

I guess Byoin can't resist the urge to kick in something Russian-made.. And if it's Russian and in Indian service, then even better.. :)

Member for

12 years 3 months

Posts: 307

I am still looking for the words "incredibly unhappy" in that "damning" report.. :confused:

Yes added his own spin.

Member for

16 years

Posts: 353

While there may be debate how major or minor the issues are, I think the whole situation of this carrier and it's aircraft is very challenging:

The ship: a real one of a kind. An older ship that has been heavily changed from it's original design with unique systems, a mix of east and west, questions about condition, cost, workmanship, spare parts etc. Large ships complement making manning with qualified individuals challenging. Very difficult to get spare parts and yard expertise for a unique ship. She proved expensive to operate in Russian service. Any large, unique ship is a real challenge to keep operational.

The aircraft: a small fleet of a specialized MiG-29 aircraft, with a mix of eastern and western systems, with embargo and spare parts challenges. The article mentions the workarounds in place that have to be dealt with. Operating a small unique fleet is a challenge to keep operational and at the proficiency required for real operational capability.

The combination: a unique ship, and a unique MiG-29 variant, with questions about spare parts, availability and full mission systems. With this combination it will likely be very difficult to get the underway time to ensure the ship and the MiG-29 air wing is fully trained and proficient. While this combination may be viewed as an interim step until a purpose built ship is ready, I imagine it will prove to be a very expensive and difficult process. Carrier aviation is inherently expensive and time consuming- doing this with a "one-off" ship and MiG makes it even more difficult.

Member for

19 years 3 months

Posts: 1,620

I guess Byoin can't resist the urge to kick in something Russian-made.. And if it's Russian and in Indian service, then even better.. :)

Have you read his other posts and unique viewpoints on a variety of matters?
The F-20 had a lower wingloading than the Hal Tejas.
The Kawasaki C-2 is no more than a "scaled down C-17" with "only 2 of the C-17 engines".
And bunch of other laughably silly stuff.

It's getting to the point where he can be used as a touchstone or benchmark: If he makes a statement, it is wise to assume the exact opposite is true.

Beyond ridiculous. :very_drunk:

Member for

13 years 3 months

Posts: 3,337

Russian MiG-29KR came later, they are functionally identical aside from a few typical substitutions (IFF, etc).
Which is why the Ukrainian angle makes no sense, they could just source the replacement parts that Russia is using for its own MiG-29KRs (does anyone even know what/if anything Ukrainian is on the K/KUB?). Indian K's don't have any extra equipment that Ukraine produces AFAIK.

Makes me doubt the whole thing, and given the author, the tendency for "anonymous Indian officials" to be.....inventive to put it mildly.....nonsense IMO.

You don't just plug in a few components after delivery to the customer. What would make more sense is shipping the component from India to Russia, and wrapping it all up in the actual assembly line.

I had asked the same question on the IN thread..as to what specific Ukrainian equipment is there in the MiG-29K/KUB in the first place? And what Western equipment does it feature? Avionics? HUD? EW equipment?

Member for

14 years 1 month

Posts: 8,850

There is the Sigma-95N GPS/ring-laser gyro-based inertial navigation system made by Safran-Sagem, TopOwl-F HMD by Thales.. You also have some Indian-made content, namely Tarang Mk3 TACAN navigation system made by BEL, plus SHORAN nav system, two TACAN radios, radio altimeter and UHF radio transceiver, all licensed by Thales and built locally.. The HF and VHF radios are Russian..

Foreign stores shall include Elta EL/L-8222 EW pod, Rafael Litening III targeting pod and Sagem AASM laser/GP guided bombs..

Ukrainian content was limited to low noise amplifier module and quartz oscillator, made by Phazotron-Ukraine, I believe..