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  • haavarla
    Rank 5 Registered User
    • Dec 2008
    • 6702

    #41
    Originally posted by Austin View Post
    http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Un.../286-BRDs.html
    http://indianairforce.nic.in/show_page.php?pg_id=214

    They do but not sure of MKI , HAL does it same for M2K .....BRD is involved in 29 upgradation to UPG standards
    I meant like smaller TBO and services on their inventory.
    Thanks

    Comment

    • MSphere
      Senior Member
      • Feb 2010
      • 8983

      #42
      Originally posted by Austin View Post
      Its under 60 % now used to be 45 % about 2 years back , the key problem with availability of aircraft is the availability of spares , storage facility , maintenance/MRO , even for aircraft that is manufactured in India this problem existed for a long time its only with the current DM Parrikar the problem is addressed with long term spares agreement , a whole 16 years plus with MKI being operational in IAF ! The goal of MOD is to increase MKI availability to 70 %

      India, Russia to sign pact on spares for Su 30 fleet, availability could go up to 75%

      http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/...w/50075387.cms

      Availability of spares/engines/MRO and long term storage cost huge investment , There is a reason why MOD is demanding 90 % availability for Rafale and is willing to pay through it nose to maintain such high availability with 2 dedicated air bases having its own facilities to maintain them

      http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/why-i...tiated-1265787
      I am not sure how to interpret these figures.. Is the low serviceability of the MKI related to the aircraft itself? Or rather to Irkut? Or is it fault of Indian way of maintaining the things like not willing to pay for spares?

      Comment

      • halloweene
        Rank 5 Registered User
        • Jan 2012
        • 4351

        #43
        Originally posted by MSphere View Post
        I am not sure how to interpret these figures.. Is the low serviceability of the MKI related to the aircraft itself? Or rather to Irkut? Or is it fault of Indian way of maintaining the things like not willing to pay for spares?
        or maybe simply they do not need more availability?

        Comment

        • BlackArcher
          Rank 5 Registered User
          • Dec 2010
          • 4297

          #44
          Originally posted by MSphere View Post
          I am not sure how to interpret these figures.. Is the low serviceability of the MKI related to the aircraft itself? Or rather to Irkut? Or is it fault of Indian way of maintaining the things like not willing to pay for spares?
          not willing to pay for spares? What the heck does that mean?

          Comment

          • haavarla
            Rank 5 Registered User
            • Dec 2008
            • 6702

            #45
            Originally posted by halloweene View Post
            or maybe simply they do not need more availability?
            That very much depends on whom you ask..
            IAF = we need 90% servicebility.
            India goverment = our AF need around 70-75% servicebility.

            Cause the higher you raise it, the moar $$$$
            Thanks

            Comment

            • TR1
              TR1
              http://tiny.cc/tp8kd
              • Oct 2010
              • 9821

              #46
              Originally posted by MSphere View Post
              I am not sure how to interpret these figures.. Is the low serviceability of the MKI related to the aircraft itself? Or rather to Irkut? Or is it fault of Indian way of maintaining the things like not willing to pay for spares?
              I think the issue was the original MKI deal did not include an in-India overhaul facility for some reason, which exists for aircraft like Mirage 2000 and MiG-29.
              Apparently the follow on spares and support contracts were not negotiated properly, you can't tell me Irkut would not produce and sell spares if contracted to.


              Not sure what the deal is with these MiG-29Ks though- first the story was some nonsense about aircraft being completed in India (obvious BS) and now fly-by-wire issues? What?

              Given the publicity of Su-35S issues in VVS, I'd expect we would hear if their Su-30SM or the navy's K/KUBs were having issues as drastic as these. But there is nothing......hmm.
              Last edited by TR1; 26th July 2016, 23:01.
              sigpic

              Comment

              • halloweene
                Rank 5 Registered User
                • Jan 2012
                • 4351

                #47
                Originally posted by haavarla View Post
                That very much depends on whom you ask..
                IAF = we need 90% servicebility.
                India goverment = our AF need around 70-75% servicebility.

                Cause the higher you raise it, the moar $$$$
                Yes, and in an exponential way..; Sometimes it is cheaper to have 3 planes with 66% availability than 2 with 100% and loads of exotic spare parts rusting...

                Comment

                • MSphere
                  Senior Member
                  • Feb 2010
                  • 8983

                  #48
                  Originally posted by BlackArcher View Post
                  not willing to pay for spares? What the heck does that mean?
                  It means you choose a cheapish maintenance model.. A purely reactive one, aimed to saving a buck.. whenever anything gets broken, you put the aircraft aside, order spares and wait.. even worse, you cannibalize other aircraft, you don't keep your own stock of parts, don't perform proactive maintenance based on statistics.. many forces do this, for example Poles were often criticized for their maintenance concept on the F-16.. their readiness rate were so poor that it is illegal to publish true numbers.. and I don't think that either the Falcon or LM are to blame..

                  Comment

                  • FBW
                    FBW
                    Rank 5 Registered User
                    • Dec 2011
                    • 3295

                    #49
                    Originally posted by TR1 View Post
                    I think the issue was the original MKI deal did not include an in-India overhaul facility for some reason, which exists for aircraft like Mirage 2000 and MiG-29.
                    Apparently the follow on spares and support contracts were not negotiated properly, you can't tell me Irkut would not produce and sell spares if contracted to.



                    Given the publicity of Su-35S issues in VVS, I'd expect we would hear if their Su-30SM or the navy's K/KUBs were having issues as drastic as these. But there is nothing......hmm.
                    Some of the availability issues also reflect the MKI having components sourced from outside Russia, makes single stream support and spares impossible. However, the last two crash investigations did fault the FBW if I'm not mistaken. Can't entirely blame India for the engine issues either as the engine problems surfaced in the initial batches of Su-30MK and MKI.

                    Comment

                    • BlackArcher
                      Rank 5 Registered User
                      • Dec 2010
                      • 4297

                      #50
                      Originally posted by MSphere View Post
                      It means you choose a cheapish maintenance model.. A purely reactive one, aimed to saving a buck.. whenever anything gets broken, you put the aircraft aside, order spares and wait.. even worse, you cannibalize other aircraft, you don't keep your own stock of parts, don't perform proactive maintenance based on statistics.. many forces do this, for example Poles were often criticized for their maintenance concept on the F-16.. their readiness rate were so poor that it is illegal to publish true numbers.. and I don't think that either the Falcon or LM are to blame..
                      And I'm assuming that you have proof that India chose a "cheapish maintenance model"?

                      India and Russia set up a maintenance related spares depot as part of the MiG-29K contract.


                      Moscow, Aug 23 (UNI) Russia's MiG Aircraft Corporation and the Indo-Russian Aerospace Ltd (IRAL) have signed a contract to build a spare parts depot for MiG planes in India. The depot is intended for supplying spare parts and materials to customers on short notice. The project will also allow for maintaining a high level of airworthiness of the Indian Air Force fleet. The basic list of parts was drawn on the strength of the indicators of reliability of MiG-29 planes in Russia, and an analysis of India's Air Force requests for spares and its recommendations, Itar-Tass reported.

                      A buildup of the infrastructure for maintenance works is envisioned by the contract to supply to India ship-borne MiG-29K/KUB fighters, concluded on July 20, 2004. However, the depot will provide for all the MiG planes which are in service with the Indian Air Force.

                      ..
                      In addition, India also invested in upgrading the IAF's Base Repair Depot specifically for the maintenance of the MiG-29 fleet.

                      IAF upgrades MiG-29 maintenance facility


                      NEW DELHI - The Indian air force has upgraded its facilities for maintaining MiG-29 aircraft, according to a service official. The Base Repair Depot at Ojhar, near Mumbai, "has now taken up the indigenous development of highly complex avionics modules and mechanical items," the official said. The upgraded facilities will cut the cost of MiG overhauls, the official said, and will enable the installation of western avionics and armament.

                      ..
                      To me it appears that blaming the customer for the issues is the excuse that Russian posters are looking at. India appears to be paying the price for being the launch customer AND having the largest worldwide fleets for both the Su-30MKI and MiG-29Ks. Most major issues will obviously surface with those who most heavily utilize their fleets and the IAF and IN have very respectable (compared to NATO) yearly utilization targets which means that the aircraft are flown more, requiring more maintenance and with some related issues appearing. This is not unique to only the IAF and other large air forces that will have relatively immature fleets of aircraft will see issues that won't necessarily pop up with smaller users. In the case of the MiG-29K fleet, it appears that there are reliability issues that haven't yet been completely sorted out since there is such a small fleet of those fighters world wide. The fleet will eventually be more mature, most issues will be sorted out, and reliability figures will improve.

                      Blaming the IAF or the IN for having issues in the first place, seems to validate those people who think that going with US equipment that is in large scale service with all these types of issues already resolved, is the better idea than going in for customized variants specific to India.
                      Last edited by BlackArcher; 27th July 2016, 05:44.

                      Comment

                      • Byoin
                        Senior Member
                        • Nov 2014
                        • 274

                        #51
                        Originally posted by BlackArcher View Post
                        And I'm assuming that you have proof that India chose a "cheapish maintenance model"?

                        India and Russia set up a maintenance related spares depot as part of the MiG-29K contract.



                        In addition, India also invested in upgrading the IAF's Base Repair Depot specifically for the maintenance of the MiG-29 fleet.

                        IAF upgrades MiG-29 maintenance facility
                        you are not alone

                        problems with serviceability of mig-29?
                        malaysia = suppliers fault
                        romania = suppliers fault
                        india = suppliers fault
                        poland = suppliers fault
                        russia = operators fault, we can do no wrong

                        its already obvious the suspected posters are in denial land and doing their best to discredit the Indians.

                        Comment

                        • Austin
                          Rank 5 Registered User
                          • Oct 2003
                          • 6480

                          #52
                          IRAL website seems to mention generically they do every thing including Su-30 to Helicopters to Transport fleet including future FGFA !

                          http://iralindia.com/product/

                          If what they say is true then why do we need separate Long Term Spare contract for Su-30 for better operational availability !

                          Possibility is IRAL is just a larger organisation built for better interoperability between Russia-India for spares but type specific spares for long term support needs its own individual contract and funding.
                          Last edited by Austin; 27th July 2016, 05:59.
                          "A map does you no good if you don't know where you are"

                          Comment

                          • Austin
                            Rank 5 Registered User
                            • Oct 2003
                            • 6480

                            #53
                            The MiG-29K, which is a carrier-borne multi-role aircraft and the mainstay of integral fleet air defence, is riddled with problems relating to airframe, RD MK-33 engine and fly-by-wire system," it said.

                            Serviceability of the warplanes was low, ranging from 15.93% to 37.63% and that of MiG-29KUB ranging from 21.30% to 47.14%.
                            Any reason why 29KUB a twin seater variant of 29K would have better serviceability , are they used more for pilot conversion and hence better maintained or simply a lesser number of KUB would translate to better uptimes.
                            "A map does you no good if you don't know where you are"

                            Comment

                            • JSR
                              JSR
                              Rank 5 Registered User
                              • Aug 2011
                              • 4977

                              #54
                              Originally posted by Byoin View Post
                              you are not alone

                              problems with serviceability of mig-29?
                              malaysia = suppliers fault
                              romania = suppliers fault
                              india = suppliers fault
                              poland = suppliers fault
                              russia = operators fault, we can do no wrong

                              its already obvious the suspected posters are in denial land and doing their best to discredit the Indians.
                              Poland/Romania/Malaysia/India are left over soviet based models. I doubt they even have RD-33 series 3 engines. those engines are just installed on MIG-29UPG. Just look at JF-17. over 220 engines ordered. how many grounded due to engines?. JF-17 flew all the way to UK and participated in exercise in Arabian desert.

                              Comment

                              • Austin
                                Rank 5 Registered User
                                • Oct 2003
                                • 6480

                                #55
                                ^^^ Mig-29 RD-33 series 3 engine has been in use on Indian Mig-29 for quite some time , HAL makes or atleaset assembles those engines here , Series 3 are also part of 29UPG upgrade program.

                                Tradationally a lot of Mig-29A series ( not the 29SMT or 35/29K ) was built with low structural and engine life IIRC like 2000 hrs where they are suppose to get replaced , not to mention the engines were very smoky , Even then engines has issues and were not able to live up to those hours.
                                "A map does you no good if you don't know where you are"

                                Comment

                                • MadRat
                                  Rank 5 Registered User
                                  • Aug 2006
                                  • 5033

                                  #56
                                  I wouldn't think the MiG-29K would have engine issues. We're talking years between overhaul, modular engines, digital feedback, etc. Shouldn't be too limiting in wartime.

                                  I'd worry more about hitting targets than engines. I'd worry more about performing sigint, jamming, bda, precision strike, etc. Just how useful is that carrier. Owning the lump of steel does much imply capacity to project power. One still has to demonstrate
                                  Go Huskers!

                                  Comment

                                  • MSphere
                                    Senior Member
                                    • Feb 2010
                                    • 8983

                                    #57
                                    Originally posted by BlackArcher View Post
                                    And I'm assuming that you have proof that India chose a "cheapish maintenance model"?
                                    Once again... In my response #42 I have asked whether the low serviceability of the MKI was related to the aircraft itself, to Irkut or rather to Indian maintaince contract.. I did not claim I knew what the reasons were..

                                    Originally posted by BlackArcher View Post
                                    To me it appears that blaming the customer for the issues is the excuse that Russian posters are looking at. India appears to be paying the price for being the launch customer AND having the largest worldwide fleets for both the Su-30MKI and MiG-29Ks. Most major issues will obviously surface with those who most heavily utilize their fleets and the IAF and IN have very respectable (compared to NATO) yearly utilization targets which means that the aircraft are flown more, requiring more maintenance and with some related issues appearing. This is not unique to only the IAF and other large air forces that will have relatively immature fleets of aircraft will see issues that won't necessarily pop up with smaller users. In the case of the MiG-29K fleet, it appears that there are reliability issues that haven't yet been completely sorted out since there is such a small fleet of those fighters world wide. The fleet will eventually be more mature, most issues will be sorted out, and reliability figures will improve.
                                    I am not a Russian poster... And I am not looking for excuses rather than explanations.. which you have not provided beyond the typical finger pointing..
                                    Nowhere have your sources shown a local maintenance facility for Su-30MKI.. That could be reflected in the readiness rates..
                                    Last edited by MSphere; 27th July 2016, 13:37.

                                    Comment

                                    • MSphere
                                      Senior Member
                                      • Feb 2010
                                      • 8983

                                      #58
                                      Originally posted by Byoin View Post
                                      you are not alone

                                      problems with serviceability of mig-29?
                                      malaysia = suppliers fault
                                      romania = suppliers fault
                                      india = suppliers fault
                                      poland = suppliers fault
                                      russia = operators fault, we can do no wrong

                                      its already obvious the suspected posters are in denial land and doing their best to discredit the Indians.
                                      Romania has not operated their MiG-29s for decades. They have been phased out due to high operating cost in favor of the MiG-21 LanceR..
                                      Poland do not have an official maintenance contract signed with MAPO. They have overhauled their birds locally at WZL with some help from Ukraine and EADS.
                                      Russian MiG-29s have no reported serviceability issues, their numbers have been scaled down according to requirements of the VKS.

                                      Comment

                                      • Vnomad
                                        Rank 5 Registered User
                                        • May 2011
                                        • 2859

                                        #59
                                        Originally posted by MSphere View Post
                                        It means you choose a cheapish maintenance model.. A purely reactive one, aimed to saving a buck.. whenever anything gets broken, you put the aircraft aside, order spares and wait.. even worse, you cannibalize other aircraft, you don't keep your own stock of parts, don't perform proactive maintenance based on statistics.. many forces do this, for example Poles were often criticized for their maintenance concept on the F-16.. their readiness rate were so poor that it is illegal to publish true numbers.. and I don't think that either the Falcon or LM are to blame..
                                        Here's the actual report.


                                        Last edited by Vnomad; 27th July 2016, 20:49.

                                        Comment

                                        • FBW
                                          FBW
                                          Rank 5 Registered User
                                          • Dec 2011
                                          • 3295

                                          #60
                                          Originally posted by MSphere View Post
                                          Romania has not operated their MiG-29s for decades. They have been phased out due to high operating cost in favor of the MiG-21 LanceR..
                                          Poland do not have an official maintenance contract signed with MAPO. They have overhauled their birds locally at WZL with some help from Ukraine and EADS.
                                          Russian MiG-29s have no reported serviceability issues, their numbers have been scaled down according to requirements of the VKS.
                                          Really? I think the VVS (VKS now) would disagree:

                                          http://mobile.reuters.com/article/wo...5152J020090206

                                          There is a reason that Mig-29 numbers were cut.
                                          Last edited by FBW; 27th July 2016, 14:46.

                                          Comment

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