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RuAF News and development Thread part 15

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  • BlackArcher
    Rank 5 Registered User
    • Dec 2010
    • 4357

    Each HAL-built Su-30MKI fighter costs around $70.3 million, where as a Russia-supplied fighter costs around $42.15 million, the senior Air Force official said.
    That's hogwash. Russian built MKIs were not $42.15 million. I've seen figures varying as much as between $47 million to $55 million. As for the local content, a lot of it is tied to the way the contract was negotiated. Where Russian sourced parts were far cheaper than setting up a factory for them, where economies of scale didn't make it economical to do it in India. As for raw material, most were sourced from Russia and then fabricated into parts. can't see anything wrong with that unless HAL has viable suppliers for those in India ready to supply them with the raw materials.

    And anyway, HAL may charge what it does, the profits mostly end up with the GoI since they are a public sector company. It's not like the money is flowing out of the country into some foreign entity's accounts.

    Comment

    • Austin
      Rank 5 Registered User
      • Oct 2003
      • 6506

      Originally posted by TR1 View Post
      https://www.defensenews.com/industry...cal-suppliers/

      "Another HAL executive said a formal request has been sent to the Indian Air Force and the Ministry for Defence that they place an additional order for 72 locally made Su-30MKI fighters for about $5 billion, but the government has not yet made a decision.
      A senior Air Force official said the service could only order 18 fighters as a response to the number of Su-30MKI jets lost in accidents over the last two decades."

      Each HAL-built Su-30MKI fighter costs around $70.3 million, where as a Russia-supplied fighter costs around $42.15 million, the senior Air Force official said.

      "The HAL built Su-30MKI fighter is not fully indigenized, only 51 percent is homemade, where the remaining 49 percent of supplies still comes from Russia, said Bhim Sigh, a retired wing commander with the Indian Air Force.Singh noted that most of the raw materials are sourced from Russia, including titanium blocks, forgings, aluminium and steel plates, as well as low-tech items such as nuts, bolts and screws."

      The official cost of HAL built Su-30MKI is pegged at $60-61 million that has been put up multiple times by MOD in Parliament.

      Coming back to cost difference bettween Russian Supplied Kit and HAL Built one , MOD recent clarification on cost difference https://www.livemint.com/Politics/D4...-as-speci.html

      Minister of State for Defence Subhash Bhamre, in a written answer to a question in Lok Sabha, said the higher cost of indigenously manufactured SU-30MKI is due to factors such as additional modifications incorporated in the plane to enhance the operational capability to suit the Indian Air Forces requirements.

      The minister said that being a transfer of technology (ToT) programme, cost is involved towards payment of license fee to the Russian side.

      Owing to the low volume of production of Indian SU-30 MKI as compared to Russian SU-30, economies of scale come into play, Bhamre said.

      Import of raw materials and proprietary components from Russia involves dependency on Russian Original Equipment Manufacturers (OEMs) for the offered kit costs, which are not proportionate with the kit contents, he said.

      The minister, however, asserted that indigenous manufacturing has created advanced skill sets in the country, a step towards self-reliance and will result in lower life cycle cost and reduced dependency on OEM, repair, maintenance, faster turn-around time, and quick support to IAF bases.

      Since the facilities are indigenously established, future production supplies is likely to be cheaper if new order for bulk production is placed on HAL, Bhamre said.
      "A map does you no good if you don't know where you are"

      Comment

      • Austin
        Rank 5 Registered User
        • Oct 2003
        • 6506

        Originally posted by LMFS View Post
        [/B]
        Well, they have been in crisis since the 90's, it is now that they are setting the basis to leave that behind. Apart from that, the claim sounds hollow like so many others, related to the imminent fall of Russia that we hear for decades now.

        Apart from the programs you mention, they had some others ongoing or planned related to VMF aircraft, like patrol, new helicopters, AWACS and so on.


        The Okhotnik couldn't be more different from a fighter like the MiG-29, which was designed with point defence in mind and excelled in TWR and maneuverability. IMO it is clearly a platform for tactical strike and ISR, not an AD asset.

        Having said that, I have heard nothing about LMFS as of late and I have my personal doubts it even makes sense as of now. Rather as I suggested in the past, an aircraft that would be optionally manned and would have a light fighter layout, with great agility and capability to support the Su-57 in the air-to-air role, similar to loyal wingman concept. The great advantage with this concept is that it would allow to increase fleet numbers at great speed and sustain the attrition of a high level conflict because the training and availability of pilots would not be an issue any more. Simplified layout and lack of need of training would reduce procurement and operational costs very significantly, too. And besides, two additional big advantages would be gained for the Russian industry and military:
        - Possibility to sell abroad both the unmanned and a manned version as light export fighter in big numbers
        - Possibility to create a STOVL design based on it, with the lifting fan in the place of the cockpit and hence without the intrinsic downsides of designs known to date for range and payload.
        I think they just need to build Mig-35 with AESA radar in large numbers rather than keep bringing LMFS.

        Mig-35 is very competitive desin for next 25-30 years with upgrade in Electronic and Weapon also likely to get bigger export market due to cost effectiveness over Flanker or PAK-FA
        "A map does you no good if you don't know where you are"

        Comment

        • JangBoGo
          Rank 5 Registered User
          • Jan 2011
          • 1510

          Comparison



          Comment

          • Alex555
            Rank 5 Registered User
            • Jan 2014
            • 10


            Altius-U

            Comment

            • LMFS
              Rank 4 Registered User
              • Feb 2018
              • 561

              Originally posted by Austin View Post

              I think they just need to build Mig-35 with AESA radar in large numbers rather than keep bringing LMFS.

              Mig-35 is very competitive desin for next 25-30 years with upgrade in Electronic and Weapon also likely to get bigger export market due to cost effectiveness over Flanker or PAK-FA
              I partially agree, but it is a suboptimal solution. The main advantage of MiG-35 is that it is already available. The airframe was created at a time when it was apparently not possible for the Soviet Union to create a single engine aircraft of enough performance, today it would be much better to design a lighter plane using one of the already available engines for heavy fighters and include basic shaping for signature management, modern aero and other state-of-the-art features. In the end it should be no different than Su-35, a temporary measure until an up-to-date design appears. In fact there are doubts about whether Rusia wants the plane beyond their need to keep MiG afloat, if they at least win the tender in India, the company would be finally safe over the medium term and we would see the real interest of the VKS, until now the only real trend, despite nice words from the politicians, is the substitution of the MiG-29 squadrons with Sukhois. State tests still running and not expected to be finished until 2021, for a plane that is essentially a MiG-29K? Seems a bit weird to me, maybe they are just making time until the India tender is finished.

              As indicated,considering that we would talk about a 5++/6G plane, the substitute could be an UCAV to work for instance in mixed regiments with the Su-57, it would allow much better overload characteristics and simply better overall performance plus lower costs and the advantage of being disposable. Manned aircraft are already having issues with radiation from the radars (apparently US pilots are complaining from high cancer rates among them) and with newer electronics the trend is only to increase manifold the powers involved, both for the radars themselves and for EW. Russians have already said that future RF DEW will be only operated from unmanned platforms due to health effects on the crew.

              With the Su-57 the high-end airframe is there, and the AI support will turn the pilots into battle managers rather than fighters. The writing is on the wall already with Okhotnik, only a A2A UCAV is missing by now.

              Comment

              • panzerfeist1
                Rank 6 Registered User
                • Feb 2018
                • 413

                That F-117 and SU-70 size comparison. Now I definitely see why pak-da wont happen but I can only dream
                I thought the fall of western civilization was a tragedy, now I realize it's a comedy.

                Comment

                • Austin
                  Rank 5 Registered User
                  • Oct 2003
                  • 6506

                  Originally posted by LMFS View Post

                  I partially agree, but it is a suboptimal solution. The main advantage of MiG-35 is that it is already available. The airframe was created at a time when it was apparently not possible for the Soviet Union to create a single engine aircraft of enough performance, today it would be much better to design a lighter plane using one of the already available engines for heavy fighters and include basic shaping for signature management, modern aero and other state-of-the-art features. In the end it should be no different than Su-35, a temporary measure until an up-to-date design appears. In fact there are doubts about whether Rusia wants the plane beyond their need to keep MiG afloat, if they at least win the tender in India, the company would be finally safe over the medium term and we would see the real interest of the VKS, until now the only real trend, despite nice words from the politicians, is the substitution of the MiG-29 squadrons with Sukhois. State tests still running and not expected to be finished until 2021, for a plane that is essentially a MiG-29K? Seems a bit weird to me, maybe they are just making time until the India tender is finished.
                  As they say Perfect is the enemy of Good Enough , Mig-35 is good enough to be competitive for next 25-30 years if bought in numbers it will turn out to be cheaper than all flanker series and less costly to maintain.

                  The other aspect is UAC and its design bureau is fully loaded with many projects in Civil and Defense. From 20 seater to 400 seater in Civil aircraft and every thing in between and many defense project , Not to mention besides technical man power funding is also an issue.

                  LMFS is not part of SAP 2018-2027 in any case

                  Last edited by Austin; 21st August 2019, 16:37.
                  "A map does you no good if you don't know where you are"

                  Comment

                  • Austin
                    Rank 5 Registered User
                    • Oct 2003
                    • 6506

                    Todays interview with Oleg Bocharov, Deputy Minister of Industry and Trade has many good information on Civilian Aircraft Program

                    https://www.vedomosti.ru/partner/cha...-oleg-bocharov


                    The Fight For The Fiery Motor , Interview Director General of the Central Institute of Aviation Motors


                    https://www.aviaport.ru/digest/2019/08/21/601579.html
                    "A map does you no good if you don't know where you are"

                    Comment

                    • haavarla
                      Rank 5 Registered User
                      • Dec 2008
                      • 6715

                      A new Su-35S vid. Check out 05:00! Just beauty in the sky.

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTebmBuXO3E
                      Thanks

                      Comment

                      • TomcatViP
                        Rank 5 Registered User
                        • Nov 2011
                        • 6122

                        Gorgeous for sure

                        Comment

                        • LMFS
                          Rank 4 Registered User
                          • Feb 2018
                          • 561

                          Originally posted by Austin View Post

                          As they say Perfect is the enemy of Good Enough , Mig-35 is good enough to be competitive for next 25-30 years if bought in numbers it will turn out to be cheaper than all flanker series and less costly to maintain.

                          The other aspect is UAC and its design bureau is fully loaded with many projects in Civil and Defense. From 20 seater to 400 seater in Civil aircraft and every thing in between and many defense project , Not to mention besides technical man power funding is also an issue.

                          LMFS is not part of SAP 2018-2027 in any case
                          I see your point. LMFS is probably dead, but in the next years they need to start thinking about a new platform for sure. If new MiGs are produced they can sure be operational for those 25-30 years you mention, 10-15 of them being still reasonably up to date and the later 10-15 years being increasingly in need of substitution.

                          Comment

                          • haavarla
                            Rank 5 Registered User
                            • Dec 2008
                            • 6715

                            Originally posted by LMFS View Post

                            I see your point. LMFS is probably dead, but in the next years they need to start thinking about a new platform for sure. If new MiGs are produced they can sure be operational for those 25-30 years you mention, 10-15 of them being still reasonably up to date and the later 10-15 years being increasingly in need of substitution.
                            I have said this for years here.. The Russian AF is closer to a HI-HI-HI(-Hi) mix of Flankers/Fullback-Frazor-Foxhound-S70 UAV. See no low mix of Mig-29 in there.
                            And with that i mean Russia is closer to a new Mig-31 variant over any new medium fighter.

                            The Mig-35 will for all intent and purpose be the last iteration of its line, its kind of sad, but it is the reality.
                            They made it as a chance of creaming out a few more $$$ for MIG on export. It will never be ordered in the 100's for VKS.
                            Anyway The bright stuff is the Su-24 is almost gone. Another 4 years of Su-34 production, and it is done.

                            So with what is clearly the planned way forward for VKS, they will have a more streamlined supply chain to service a smaller but more inter-connected fleet of jets. A very high range of common spare-parts are used on all Flankers and Fullback. Lets hope they can replace all AL-31F variants with the Idz-117S engine.

                            If it is not already done. All Su-25 regiments should be transfered over to Army Aviation together with their Attack Helios fleet. It just make so much more sense.
                            Last edited by haavarla; 22nd August 2019, 10:08.
                            Thanks

                            Comment

                            • a89
                              a89
                              Rank 5 Registered User
                              • Sep 2011
                              • 376

                              Anyway The bright stuff is the Su-24 is almost gone. Another 4 years of Su-34 production, and it is done.
                              Production is going to end this year unless another contract is signed.
                              History and Military Technology blog

                              alejandro-8en.blogspot.com

                              Comment

                              • Austin
                                Rank 5 Registered User
                                • Oct 2003
                                • 6506

                                Looks like Russia has reverse engineered Israel Searcher UAV with complete Russian components and building it

                                https://www.aex.ru/news/2019/8/22/201163/
                                "A map does you no good if you don't know where you are"

                                Comment

                                • TR1
                                  TR1
                                  http://tiny.cc/tp8kd
                                  • Oct 2010
                                  • 9826

                                   
                                  sigpic

                                  Comment

                                  • LMFS
                                    Rank 4 Registered User
                                    • Feb 2018
                                    • 561



                                    Truly smooth, the plane really seems to create LOTS of lift, losing very little altitude and speed when turning aerodynamically. By now very little hard maneouvering but rather elegant choreographies, I think we are far from knowing things like what the max sustained turning rate is.

                                    Originally posted by haavarla
                                    I have said this for years here.. The Russian AF is closer to a HI-HI-HI(-Hi) mix of Flankers/Fullback-Frazor-Foxhound-S70 UAV. See no low mix of Mig-29 in there.
                                    And with that i mean Russia is closer to a new Mig-31 variant over any new medium fighter.
                                    What I meant speaks rather in favour of a new light platform, only not a manned one. The Okhotnik is, despite its relatively heavy weight logical for a strike platform, the "low" (cheaper, disposable) part of the mix, and that is what I think UCAVS will end up doing in the near future. This light A2A platform could support the Su-57 in a proportion of say 2:1 or 4:1 (or even more with the time) for a cheap, fast increase in numbers. A new medium fighter makes no sense to me, as said the MiG-29 was rather a technological compromise than an optimal solution. It is placed at a no-man's land between a true light fighter and a heavy one, without the clear advantages over the Flankers that would really help the VKS. MiG-35 at least is a reasonable multi-role aircraft and can be sold very well, if it was not because of the stealth hype. Most countries cannot afford to maintain such planes, to start with, so they should stick to what works and is real (IMHO).

                                    So with what is clearly the planned way forward for VKS, they will have a more streamlined supply chain to service a smaller but more inter-connected fleet of jets. A very high range of common spare-parts are used on all Flankers and Fullback. Lets hope they can replace all AL-31F variants with the Idz-117S engine.
                                    This seems to be the case indeed. Engine commonality between Su-30 and 35 has been already confirmed, the work for the Su-34M should be ongoing already (signed very recently) and indeed a more powerful engine with longer life would be a big plus for it, with its 46 t MTOW. Su-33 would benefit massively from the new engine too, but maybe the low numbers and presence of the MiG-29K make the update too expensive and also unnecessary.

                                    What I would be interested in knowing is the true rating of the domestic engines. We know the izd. 117S is essentially an export engine, but we don't know what izd. 117 can really do and whether it will be used or even is already being used in the Flankers of the VKS.

                                    If it is not already done. All Su-25 regiments should be transfered over to Army Aviation together with their Attack Helios fleet. It just make so much more sense.
                                    It makes even more sense to leave everything "air" to the VKS than having to replicate all those competences, air bases etc in the army.

                                    Comment

                                    • panzerfeist1
                                      Rank 6 Registered User
                                      • Feb 2018
                                      • 413

                                      Source and credit for the user dino00 that posted this on Russia defense net just in case anyone on this forum has not caught wind of the news.

                                      https://ria.ru/20190804/1557149345.html

                                      MOSCOW, Aug 4 - RIA News. The
                                      Kronstadt group will present a scale model
                                      of a seven-ton vertical take-off UAV at the MAKS-2019 aerospace show, a spokesman for the group told RIA Novosti.
                                      Earlier, the general director of Kronstadt Armen Isaakyan told reporters that the company could create a vertical take-off UAV with a
                                      payload of up to one and a half tons.
                                      "We do not leave this topic, continue to work in this direction, study the possibilities of civilian use of the machine. At the MAKS-2019 air show, we plan to present a large-scale model of such an aircraft in order to attract the attention of potential consumers," said the agency interlocutor.




                                      I thought the fall of western civilization was a tragedy, now I realize it's a comedy.

                                      Comment

                                      • haavarla
                                        Rank 5 Registered User
                                        • Dec 2008
                                        • 6715

                                        Originally posted by a89 View Post

                                        Production is going to end this year unless another contract is signed.
                                        For all we know a new contract may already been signed.. sometimes they do this without the parades and cheers
                                        Thanks

                                        Comment

                                        • haavarla
                                          Rank 5 Registered User
                                          • Dec 2008
                                          • 6715

                                          It makes even more sense to leave everything "air" to the VKS than having to replicate all those competences, air bases etc in the army.
                                          Now think about this. Attack Helios and Su-25 are direct support units to army, they have to be close based to frontline They have to merge them together with Tor units for protection. Its better for army planning and operations. Shorter time for command chain.
                                          Last edited by haavarla; 24th August 2019, 18:51.
                                          Thanks

                                          Comment

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