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RuAF News and development Thread part 15

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  • haavarla
    Rank 5 Registered User
    • Dec 2008
    • 6699

    Russia now Ranks as 6th Place in Defense Spending.
    Haha Scooter, selective numbers much

    That in itself means Russia is Soley in the 1st place in Bang for the Buck rating.
    In which surly put US Defense spending at a depressing comparison on the same note.

    And even if this issue has been posted many many many times before on this forum, it may come as a shock to you, but again here it is; Russia do R&D, Maintain and produce their military capability in.. wait for it..
    Rubles, not US dollars!!!
    Now do you have the capacity to understand the implication of this fact!?


    Sad your Pentagon PowerPoint do not address this.. As we see Russia speeding ahead on a number of fields, Hypersonic weapons, new NC platforms. Layered AD anti-air systems, new MBT platform. New multipurpose attack Subs, a Heavy class UAV, Heavy class 5th Gen multirole fighter.

    New Cheap NAvy Frigates Class which packs much more firepower than many NATO Destroyers has today.
    Pls try to do read-up on the Kalibr'zation of Russian Navy, and what this apply as a Force Multiplier to existing and future Russian Navy Capability.
    And thanks to USA brilliant withdraw from INF threaty, Kalibr will now also become a part of Russia Land Bastion inventory.

    And on that note, pls do some research on what one Kalibr missile cost to produce in Russia Scooter, i am 100% confident that you will not like the figure, which in turn takes us right back to the implication of Russia running their Military Industrial Complex in Ruble, not US dollars.

    I did say there was a decline in the last two year defense budget, 5% decline from 2016 spending is true.
    But have you bothered to take a look on the Energy market lately Scooter?
    Looks like Russia foreign trade Dept will be fully eliminated in a 5 year period if Oil revenues keeps up. In which also means there is room for increase in Russian defense spending.. very soon.

    And lastly on the bigger picture of things, USA decline and Russia rise on Int world order. For clues see Middle East.
    Last edited by haavarla; 1st May 2019, 10:31.
    Thanks

    Comment

    • niksi
      Rank 5 Registered User
      • Apr 2007
      • 406

      What do you expect from a forum where an idiot and troll pushed out the most valuable contributor to the news section, only because news (or the sources) had not been to his liking.

      This used to be a respected forum with a lot of knowledgeable posters contributing by giving beneficial information.

      I don't care if I get a ban...

      Comment

      • haavarla
        Rank 5 Registered User
        • Dec 2008
        • 6699

        Originally posted by niksi View Post
        What do you expect from a forum where an idiot and troll pushed out the most valuable contributor to the news section, only because news (or the sources) had not been to his liking.

        This used to be a respected forum with a lot of knowledgeable posters contributing by giving beneficial information.

        I don't care if I get a ban...
        Just take a breath and Relax Niksi. This forum has encountered similar people over the years, whom many of them has been removed, some quickly other after a few years.
        I just find it amusing that most of them has been(are) operating in other Forums like F-16.net and others and they just find it absolute necessary to bring their childish Chest Banging complex here, as if they do not get enough of it over there..

        When you think about it, the only way to get them silenced or removed is by picking each and every silly claimed post apart, until they get so caught up in their own web, that they goes off on a grief rant. They always do in the end.

        Tango is in his right to leave, he has done a wonderful jobb over many many years. Nothing last for ever.
        Last edited by haavarla; 1st May 2019, 12:26.
        Thanks

        Comment

        • Levsha
          Rank 5 Registered User
          • Jan 2006
          • 2853

          Originally posted by niksi View Post
          What do you expect from a forum where an idiot and troll pushed out the most valuable contributor to the news section, only because news (or the sources) had not been to his liking.
          Utter nonsense. Tango left the forum for his own personal reasons - but he was never "pushed out".

          This used to be a respected forum with a lot of knowledgeable posters contributing by giving beneficial information
          It still has many good posters, but over the last few years, many good forums have suffered a loss in the the quality and quantity of its active participants, Key Publishing forums included. The entire online landscape has changed, not just for aviation forums.

          Comment

          • FBW
            FBW
            Rank 5 Registered User
            • Dec 2011
            • 3295

            Originally posted by haavarla View Post

            Haha Scooter, selective numbers much

            That in itself means Russia is Soley in the 1st place in Bang for the Buck rating.
            In which surly put US Defense spending at a depressing comparison on the same note.

            And even if this issue has been posted many many many times before on this forum, it may come as a shock to you, but again here it is; Russia do R&D, Maintain and produce their military capability in.. wait for it..
            [B]Rubles, not US dollars!!!
            Now do you have the capacity to understand the implication of this fact!?
            Very true, the best rebuttal and most accurate part of your post. You should have stopped here

            S
            ad your Pentagon PowerPoint do not address this.. As we see Russia speeding ahead on a number of fields, Hypersonic weapons, new NC platforms. Layered AD anti-air systems, new MBT platform. New multipurpose attack Subs, a Heavy class UAV, Heavy class 5th Gen multirole fighter.
            We don't see these things. Hypersonic weapons- Kinzhal is a modification of a intermediate range BM questionable if it fits in this category, many view it as a propaganda weapon rather than a useful addition. Tsirkon is more interesting... and not in service (and I'd take rumored entry date of 2020 with a large grain of salt). In truth, we don't know who is closer to fielding either a hypersonic airbreathing cruise missile or a boost-glide weapon, for all of the research ongoing and investment it could be the Chinese.

            New MBT- Armata is still basically in trials with LRIP continuing until 2025 (100 total planned in this armaments plan?)

            Heavy class UAV- prototype, there is no doubt Russia is behind the other major powers in developing and fielding UAV.

            New mulitpurpose attack sub- Husky is a bunch of blueprints, maybe a table model somewhere, again this is an area where Russia is clearly behind the other major powers, perhaps not in technology, but in industrial capacity. Russian shipbuilding industry had to be rebuilt from nothing, if the last 10 years has shown anything, throwing money at the problem did not speed up production or efficiency.



            New Cheap NAvy Frigates Class which packs much more firepower than many NATO Destroyers has today.
            Pls try to do read-up on the Kalibr'zation of Russian Navy, and what this apply as a Force Multiplier to existing and future Russian Navy Capability.
            And thanks to USA brilliant withdraw from INF threaty, Kalibr will now also become a part of Russia Land Bastion inventory.
            Packing large weapons in a small hull may offer an economical solution to regional influence, but severely limits endurance, sensor fit, habitability, power projection, protection of sea lanes.

            And lastly on the bigger picture of things, USA decline and Russia rise on Int world order. For clues see Middle East.
            Neither, questionable statement on several levels. In the Middle East? perhaps in regards to near east. Worldwide? The only major nation that consistently ranks below the US in terms of favorability and public perception is Russia. Russia's share of world trade is minuscule, and shrinking. While the Russian response to sanctions has largely insulated and softened impact on the economy, it has further eroded Russian economic influence (which plays a large part in political influence). My suggestion would be to stop parroting those wishful thinking Russophile sites and join reality.

            In other words, if scooter gets you so riled up that you can't refute his post with an accurate, factual rebuttal, then don't. This form doesn't need more hyperbole.


            Comment

            • panzerfeist1
              Rank 6 Registered User
              • Feb 2018
              • 400

              @FBW

              "We don't see these things. Hypersonic weapons- Kinzhal is a modification of a intermediate range BM questionable if it fits in this category, many view it as a propaganda weapon rather than a useful addition. Tsirkon is more interesting... and not in service (and I'd take rumored entry date of 2020 with a large grain of salt). In truth, we don't know who is closer to fielding either a hypersonic airbreathing cruise missile or a boost-glide weapon, for all of the research ongoing and investment it could be the Chinese."

              https://qr.ae/TWIhdz I believe I have addressed most of their hypersonic capabilities. But to me and everyone else it would absolutely make no sense that they have developed a missile with similar roles to the sparrow missiles(knowingly it would not work) while claiming to destroy air defense platforms. The Kinzhal information as you said before was leaked while the US believes its similar to sparrow missile. But Russias description of maneuvering at every stage compared to the sparrow missile only maneuvering at the re-entry phase is still too different to say they have similar roles. What I am saying is there would be no purpose for the Russians to boast about the kinzhal missile if it was that similar to the sparrow missiles.

              "Heavy class UAV- prototype, there is no doubt Russia is behind the other major powers in developing and fielding UAV."

              I agree with you on this, but my opinion along with many on this forum might change since it is said that this Spring flight tests will be done with their heavy drone Okhontik. The next thing I hope they would do is test the radar and have the drone fire missiles. I think the Russians are only behind the US(although that might change depending on this project's outcome) for example I do not see any similar project those other major powers you are talking about being made.

              "again this is an area where Russia is clearly behind the other major powers, perhaps not in technology, but in industrial capacity. Russian shipbuilding industry had to be rebuilt from nothing, if the last 10 years has shown anything, throwing money at the problem did not speed up production or efficiency."

              We had sailors die and be buried at sea because of the radiation poisoning they have received on Project Azorian trying to recover a submarine along with some torpedoes. In the Quora answer there are other attack submarines like the Yasen-M. There has been a lot of debate about the noise levels between the Yasen-M and newer Virginia class subs arguing which one is more stealthier(do not want to bring it up for the sake of this aviation thread). Russians claim their SONAR is far superior(no knows that for sure) But I do know that if Zircon and this submarine become operational it can basically destroy groups of ships and since its torpedo outranges other torpedoes range and comes with a self autonomous 2.5km dual passive and active homing warhead the accuracy is even better that if this submarines stealth was equivalent to other in terms of stealth and has its sonar range capability meet its torpedo range than this sub will always get 1st shot 1st kill. It also has a neat Vist-2 decoy that can imitate noise and radiation levels of other submarines.

              However I agree the US is superior in naval radars on ships because as far as I know there is no Naval version of a s-400 or S-500 on a ship yet.

              "Russia's share of world trade is minuscule, and shrinking"

              They stopped parts of Ukraine becoming a part of NATO, Screwed with us on Syria and Venezuela, and now are beginning more trade and military projects with Turkey and just like the Chinese they are planning most of their businesses in Africa.

              https://www.reuters.com/article/us-russia-economy-gdp/russias-gdp-growth-at-six-year-high-raises-question-of-durability-idUSKCN1Q10NO
              I thought the fall of western civilization was a tragedy, now I realize it's a comedy.

              Comment

              • JSR
                JSR
                Rank 5 Registered User
                • Aug 2011
                • 4977

                Originally posted by FBW View Post

                Very true, the best rebuttal and most accurate part of your post. You should have stopped here

                Neither, questionable statement on several levels. In the Middle East? perhaps in regards to near east. Worldwide? The only major nation that consistently ranks below the US in terms of favorability and public perception is Russia. Russia's share of world trade is minuscule, and shrinking. While the Russian response to sanctions has largely insulated and softened impact on the economy, it has further eroded Russian economic influence (which plays a large part in political influence). My suggestion would be to stop parroting those wishful thinking Russophile sites and join reality.
                In other words, if scooter gets you so riled up that you can't refute his post with an accurate, factual rebuttal, then don't. This form doesn't need more hyperbole.
                Russia favorability is very high. that's why Germanic industrial investments are at record level. Arabs already lined up for investments even at places not expected.
                https://www.thenational.ae/business/...stake-1.844477
                Emirates NBD, Dubais biggest bank, agreed to pay 15.48 billion Turkish lira ($2.8bn) to Russias Sberbank to buy its stake in Turkish lender Denizbank

                Russia is the largest exporter of Nuclear reactors and all the fundamental R&D in materials and supercomputers associated with it.
                https://www.powermag.com/russia-sets...ration-record/
                Russia Sets New Domestic Nuclear Generation Record

                All this electric power is needed for industrialization. I doubt they using it for airconditioning. heating is from gas.
                I doubt you even understand the advanced economic system that Russia created.



                Comment

                • XB-70
                  Rank 4 Registered User
                  • May 2018
                  • 354

                  If everyone would please refrain from posting economic articles it would be appreciated. For one, it's pretty heavily off topic. Also, most of the MSM is utterly incapable of competently discussing such matters and so, if you continue, this thread will be filled with mountains of BS. Here, I'll give you all an example.

                  Bussinessinsider:
                  The 1.44 trillion ruble allocation actually represents a significant drop in expected annual procurement...
                  Get that? It's not actually a decrease. The allocation is actually an increase, just a smaller one than was anticipated. About the only worthwhile statistic in the article was that the period brought on by low oil prices and sanctions set them back by a little bit. They are only going to reach around 67% by their 2020 goal and not 70%. A setback, yes, but not the end of the world.

                  haavarla already brought up that their economic output is measured in rubles and so basing it in dollars is very much an apples and oranges comparison. But the real gem - the part displaying staggering levels of incompetence - is this bit from the stratfor article.

                  In 2018, 38 percent of Russian industrial enterprises purchased equipment from abroad; two years before, the figure was just 6 percent. Ultimately, if Russian arms producers are failing to find sales for defense customers at home, they're unlikely to find any more of a domestic civilian market for their wares.
                  But, as you can see below, there is a problem with that. The top major economies lead in the lists of imports AND exports. This is not a coincidence, the theoretical reasons behind it is not something to discuss in an aviation forum, but high imports is a mark of economic strength!!

                  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ies_by_imports
                  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ies_by_exports

                  A recent (Russian) example of this characteristic has been their work with the Northern Sea Route. The Russians don't have the capability to build icebreaking LNG carriers such as the Christophe de Margerie until they renovate their shipyards, and so they procured the first batch from Daewoo in SK. They are finishing Zvezda shipyard for further domestic builds but lack the efficient capacity for heavy lift cranes (those well over 100 tonnes) and so contracted them from China. To speed the development of their Yamal projects they brought on Total as a partner. And the result of a few billion dollars worth of imports is...well, see the shipping increases here.

                  https://www.kbnn.no/en/article/shipp...thern-searoute

                  And Russian enterprises are working to reinvest some of the profits of that to further develop the region (with rail lines to the industrial Urals, more ice rated shipping, further upgrades to deepwater ports and anchorages such as Sabetta and Dikson to economically utilize the far north for decades and increase shipping to over 80 million tonnes by 2024. (Might be a bit optimistic on the year but they will easily surpass 100 million tonnes in time) This boosts the value of their economic influence (their exports are already nearly back to all time highs and rising; their imports are lagging a bit more but also rising).

                  https://tradingeconomics.com/russia/exports
                  https://tradingeconomics.com/russia/imports

                  And it will also gain them a great deal of influence via the trade transport route. Asia-Europe fuel costs are much lower on the NSR. Once the infrastructure (deepwater stopovers and icebreaking capacity) is in place to drive insurance costs down it will be mighty valuable to not just China, but also (maybe of more importance) Japan and South Korea. Yes, economic influence does translate into political influence. And all from a few billion dollars of imports (which, like with debt, is of great value when properly utilized).

                  But that goes over some's heads and Scooter and the MSM are simply out of their league. Anyways, I'll step off of my soapbox. I'll again say it would be good to avoid economics here, and I apologize.

                  Comment

                  • Guest's Avatar
                    Guest

                    Regardless, of the numbers the facts are pretty simple. As Russia is no longer the Super Power of the Soviet Era. They just don't have the resources or even talent to keep up with the "West" anymore. Yet, I have hope after Putin is gone a truly "Democratic State" will arise and make Mother Russia into a respected member of the World Community. As the Russian People deserve nothing less........

                    Comment

                    • Guest's Avatar
                      Guest

                      Yes, when they become free and democratic countries...

                      Comment

                      • XB-70
                        Rank 4 Registered User
                        • May 2018
                        • 354

                        They just don't have the resources or even talent to keep up with the "West" anymore.
                        Utterly irrelevant if they don't have the need to do so. And, barring they develop a desire to play the expensive role of 'global cop', they don't. I know you are fond of **** talking, but your opinions are just that. ****

                        Comment

                        • eagle
                          Rank 5 Registered User
                          • Jan 2000
                          • 2370

                          Originally posted by panzerfeist1
                          "
                          They just don't have the resources or even talent to keep up with the "West" anymore"
                          Showing your true colours again, nice.
                          GTFO.
                          How can less be more? It's impossible. More is more.
                          Yngwie Malmsteen

                          Comment

                          • panzerfeist1
                            Rank 6 Registered User
                            • Feb 2018
                            • 400

                            eagle
                            ​​​​​​​He insults the east I insult the west by bringing up actual reports from sources that are accountably true.
                            I thought the fall of western civilization was a tragedy, now I realize it's a comedy.

                            Comment

                            • Sintra
                              Rank 5 Registered User
                              • Aug 2007
                              • 3849

                              Originally posted by panzerfeist1 View Post
                              eagle
                              He insults the east I insult the west by bringing up actual reports from sources that are accountably true.
                              Youve brought two tabloid news, from two very unreputable sources, reeking both of the worst kind of homophobia and racism...
                              Thats what youve actually brought
                              And if you want to discuss the % of Muslins versus the Population of a Country or the numbers of Crimes, do it in the "General Forum", not here.
                              sigpic

                              Comment

                              • panzerfeist1
                                Rank 6 Registered User
                                • Feb 2018
                                • 400

                                Sintra

                                I will replace it with a video link maybe that is a better source.
                                I thought the fall of western civilization was a tragedy, now I realize it's a comedy.

                                Comment

                                • Sintra
                                  Rank 5 Registered User
                                  • Aug 2007
                                  • 3849

                                  A new video about the SU57, or "Hunter"? Great, thanks.
                                  A video about the silliness that you've posted before? Don't need to bother
                                  sigpic

                                  Comment

                                  • panzerfeist1
                                    Rank 6 Registered User
                                    • Feb 2018
                                    • 400

                                    Yes that silliness represented the west. But this board has gone off topic many times especially with scooter not receiving any violations. But i guess my responses pissed off people's political affiliations to report it. Lesson learned.
                                    I thought the fall of western civilization was a tragedy, now I realize it's a comedy.

                                    Comment

                                    • haavarla
                                      Rank 5 Registered User
                                      • Dec 2008
                                      • 6699

                                      Originally posted by panzerfeist1 View Post
                                      Sintra

                                      I will replace it with a video link maybe that is a better source.
                                      Even better if you delete that post and never again post anything similar. This is a military Aviation forum. We have enough nonsens here already.
                                      Thanks

                                      Comment

                                      • paralay
                                        Rank 5 Registered User
                                        • Aug 2005
                                        • 1411

                                        Russia a thousand years. Before each war, the invaders deceive themselves in Russia's weakness. The war always ends the same way - in the capital of the aggressor

                                        Comment

                                        • eagle
                                          Rank 5 Registered User
                                          • Jan 2000
                                          • 2370

                                          Originally posted by panzerfeist1 View Post
                                          eagle
                                          ​​​​​​​He insults the east I insult the west by bringing up actual reports from sources that are accountably true.
                                          I'm sorry to hear you actually think those "reports" are true.
                                          Here's some free advice for you: As a rule of thumb, any source using yellow font can't be taken seriously. It's called yellow press for a reason. Also applies to aviation related stuff btw. ... so back to topic.
                                          How can less be more? It's impossible. More is more.
                                          Yngwie Malmsteen

                                          Comment

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