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    Originally posted by Austin View Post


    Indian Russia FGFA deal involved more than aircraft purchase , it factored TOT cost , Lic Production cost , Cost of Infra .......something similar to MKI but much more broader.

    Hence any figures quoting $`100 million or less or more is not a definative figure but more of talking point ........It could have been easily more or little less depending the final outcome of negotiation which never happened in the end.
    The $100 Million Number was from early projections. Which, more offend than not turn out to be way "low". In addition Russia is only building a handful of Su-57's today. Which, also supports a price over $100 Million ....

    Comment

    • Austin
      Rank 5 Registered User
      • Oct 2003
      • 6506

      These are just non-official estimates peddled in Indian press for FGFA which like I said was a far deeper and wider JV program with India involving comprehensive TOT, Lic Prog and Industrial base for FGFA program much beyond the scope of MKI program.

      We dont know if these are the final number based on how much Indian wanted to make

      HAL makes MKI at $61 miillion for IAF but that includes an entire industry offset involving TOT , Lic Prod cost , Manuf cost , Import content , Engine Manufacturing etc plus you need price in long term cost escalation to keep prices stable and HALS own fat profit plus 272 + aircraft program

      I would be looking at cost of $80 - 85 million for PAK-FA or its export derivative. If it involves deeper industrial offset and lic manuf then cost of $95-100 miillion on higher side for export customers.
      "A map does you no good if you don't know where you are"

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      • Guest's Avatar
        Guest

        Originally posted by Austin View Post
        These are just non-official estimates peddled in Indian press for FGFA which like I said was a far deeper and wider JV program with India involving comprehensive TOT, Lic Prog and Industrial base for FGFA program much beyond the scope of MKI program.

        We dont know if these are the final number based on how much Indian wanted to make

        HAL makes MKI at $61 miillion for IAF but that includes an entire industry offset involving TOT , Lic Prod cost , Manuf cost , Import content , Engine Manufacturing etc plus you need price in long term cost escalation to keep prices stable and HALS own fat profit plus 272 + aircraft program

        I would be looking at cost of $80 - 85 million for PAK-FA or its export derivative. If it involves deeper industrial offset and lic manuf then cost of $95-100 miillion on higher side for export customers.
        Well, they haven't ordered more than a dozen aircraft or secured any export orders. That alone easily support a $100 Million + Price Tag.

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        • RadDisconnect
          Rank 5 Registered User
          • Jul 2013
          • 531

          Originally posted by Scooter View Post


          Laughable......Just because the J-31 has gained Chinese Government Funding. Hardly, means that is because the J-15 is or isn't having issues. It is because China needs a mid-sized 5th Generation Strike Fighter in the class of the F-35. Which, can be produced in large numbers and be operated by the PLAAF, PLAN, and Export.

          Yes, I am Corsair1963 from f-16.net. Yet, please enlighten me on all the members from F-16.net that don't take my theory seriously??? (LOL)

          Oh, you must me a member of f-16.net. So, what username do you use on that forum?


          So, I guess your one of those DREAMERS? That believe Russia is going to build "several hundred" if not thousands of Su-57's!
          You're the one assuming PLAAF/PLAN doctrine must be same as USAF so they must get J-31 just because US is getting large number of F-35. That's YOUR assumption. Also, all the attention on Chinese fighters on f-16.net is on J-20, no one except for you is pushing the J-31.

          Whatever funding J-31 receive, it's much less than what J-20 got and difference in progress is obvious even when the first prototype only flew a year later. Even China is seeing J-31 as lower priority, what makes you think that Russia will somehow jump on it? Only based on YOUR assumption of their doctrine.

          When did I say anything about "thousands of Su-57s"?

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          • Guest's Avatar
            Guest

            Originally posted by RadDisconnect View Post

            You're the one assuming PLAAF/PLAN doctrine must be same as USAF so they must get J-31 just because US is getting large number of F-35. That's YOUR assumption. Also, all the attention on Chinese fighters on f-16.net is on J-20, no one except for you is pushing the J-31.

            Whatever funding J-31 receive, it's much less than what J-20 got and difference in progress is obvious even when the first prototype only flew a year later. Even China is seeing J-31 as lower priority, what makes you think that Russia will somehow jump on it? Only based on YOUR assumption of their doctrine.

            When did I say anything about "thousands of Su-57s"?
            Sorry, China needs a mid-sized Stealthy Strike Fighter. Which, it can mass produce for both the domestic market (PLAAF and PLAN) and EXPORT. To do that they must produce them in great numbers. In order to make them "affordable". Has nothing to do with US vs Chinese Military Doctrine....

            Nor, does China see the J-31 as a "lower priority". That is totally false as the program is critical to the future of the PLA. As I have said before the J-31 will be the "cornerstone" of the future PLAAF and PLAN Fighter Fleet.

            The J-20 (like the Su-57) will never be produced in vast numbers. Just to expensive and hardly suited for the role. (Multi-Mission)

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            • Guest's Avatar
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              Originally posted by RadDisconnect View Post


              When did I say anything about "thousands of Su-57s"?
              I said several hundred or maybe a thousands. Nonetheless, how many 5th Generation Stealth Fighters is the Russian Air Force going to need for the next 20+ years???

              Comment

              • blackwood
                Rank 5 Registered User
                • Dec 2011
                • 314

                Originally posted by Scooter View Post

                Sorry, China needs a mid-sized Stealthy Strike Fighter. Which, it can mass produce for both the domestic market (PLAAF and PLAN) and EXPORT. To do that they must produce them in great numbers. In order to make them "affordable". Has nothing to do with US vs Chinese Military Doctrine....

                Nor, does China see the J-31 as a "lower priority". That is totally false as the program is critical to the future of the PLA. As I have said before the J-31 will be the "cornerstone" of the future PLAAF and PLAN Fighter Fleet.

                The J-20 (like the Su-57) will never be produced in vast numbers. Just to expensive and hardly suited for the role. (Multi-Mission)
                Please explain why there are only 2 prototypes of the J-31 flying, after all these years, if it was a high priority with the Chinese airforce they should have 10 to 12 prototypes flying already flying like Pak-fa, they should also have tested in Syria , oh like the Pak-fa, oh they should have done air force testing with 6 prototypes like the pak-fa in south of Russias airforce testing grounds

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                • Guest's Avatar
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                  Originally posted by blackwood View Post

                  Please explain why there are only 2 prototypes of the J-31 flying, after all these years, if it was a high priority with the Chinese airforce they should have 10 to 12 prototypes flying already flying like Pak-fa, they should also have tested in Syria , oh like the Pak-fa, oh they should have done air force testing with 6 prototypes like the pak-fa in south of Russias airforce testing grounds
                  The first two J-31's if you want to call them that. Were not prototypes at all. They were "Demonstrators".....That said, todays V1/2 are prototypes and will lead to LRIP and then to Series Production.

                  As for Russia sending the Su-57's to Syria. That was nothing but a publicity stunt! Nobody is the West would do such a foolish thing. Honestly, just shows how little you know about the subject matter.

                  Comment

                  • J-20
                    Rank 4 Registered User
                    • Jan 2018
                    • 256

                    2019 Apr 01

                    STEALTH MiG-17 FIRST FLIGHT

                    Legendary Russian aircraft Manufacturer, Mikoyan Gurevich, unveiled the Stealth MiG-17 at its plant in Nizhny Novgorod.
                    According to UAC representative, Bolshoy Khleb, the MiG-17 Stealth is not the same aircraft that dominated American fighters over the skies of Vietnam.
                    Instead, Khleb states that this is an evolutionary model, utilizing the same materials as the Su-57.

                    While it is unknown whether the MiG-17 stealth will be adopted into Russian service, Chief designer, Dr. Seksualnaya Zadnista, indicated that the aircraft will be produced for exports.
                    ' There are may countries in Africa, Asia and Latin America that want a 5th generation aircraft but can't afford them. This aircraft will fill that special niche and can compete well against more expensive jets from China or the west. Although the airframe is classical, the materials are the same as the Su-57. Additionally, our aircraft emits zero radar signals, making it difficult to intercept'

                    Click image for larger version

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                    Comment

                    • Vans
                      Rank 5 Registered User
                      • Oct 2015
                      • 155

                      ^ ROFLMAO, that was the best April fools one yet, especially the names.

                      Comment

                      • LMFS
                        Rank 4 Registered User
                        • Feb 2018
                        • 562

                        Originally posted by Scooter View Post

                        QUOTE:

                        Each fifth generation fighter is likely to cost India about 100 million dollars.

                        http://www.sify.com/news/india-to-jo...erudjjcjc.html


                        QUOTE:

                        The Russian and Indian air forces each plan to build about 250 FGFAs, at an estimated cost of $100 million per fighter.

                        https://www.business-standard.com/ar...1502009_1.html

                        QUOTE:

                        ......and fighters estimated to cost approximately $100 million each at minimum

                        https://militarywatchmagazine.com/ar...mean-for-hanoi

                        QUOTE: (Russian Source)

                        Firstly, the price of one Su-57 without armament can reach $100 million. Without doubt this is a very effective yet costly machine, said Dmitry Safonov, military analyst from the Izvestia newspaper.

                        https://www.rbth.com/science-and-tec...ussias-top-jet
                        Just what I meant, you still don't get that dollar is not the universal currency do you? MoD doesn't buy and doesn't think in dollars, try to imagine that abomination for a second. So what in 2009 could be 100 million would be now 50. Besides export prices are not domestic ones. Besides you provide no official source but only broad estimations from "guys" out there. Besides I have said this is my own estimation, nothing official. Russian officials said it would be 2-2.5 times cheaper than US models so make your own numbers. As proved above the domestic prices of Su-35 and Su-30 are around 30 millions, maybe even less. That would be their reference for what they consider acceptably expensive and too expensive, just use your common sense.

                        BTW look what I found, from your source The Diplomat:
                        The per-unit cost of a Su-57 is estimated to be around $40-45 million (or over 2.5 times cheaper than the U.S. F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter).

                        https://thediplomat.com/2018/07/russ...h-fighter-jet/

                        The Russian Su-57 fifth-generation fighter jet will be two and a half times cheaper than US Lockheed Martin F-35 fighter jet and F-22 stealth fighter aircraft, Russian lawmaker Vladimir Gutenev, a member of State Duma's expert panel on the aviation industry, told Sputnik.

                        https://sputniknews.com/military/201...ma-su-fighter/

                        Comment

                        • RadDisconnect
                          Rank 5 Registered User
                          • Jul 2013
                          • 531

                          Originally posted by Scooter View Post

                          Sorry, China needs a mid-sized Stealthy Strike Fighter. Which, it can mass produce for both the domestic market (PLAAF and PLAN) and EXPORT. To do that they must produce them in great numbers. In order to make them "affordable". Has nothing to do with US vs Chinese Military Doctrine....
                          Why does China need an aircraft like J-31? Does it have same doctrine as US with power projection and strike? China goals are regional.

                          Originally posted by Scooter View Post
                          Nor, does China see the J-31 as a "lower priority". That is totally false as the program is critical to the future of the PLA. As I have said before the J-31 will be the "cornerstone" of the future PLAAF and PLAN Fighter Fleet.

                          The J-20 (like the Su-57) will never be produced in vast numbers. Just to expensive and hardly suited for the role. (Multi-Mission)
                          There is NOTHING so far saying J-31 is critical to PLA. All you showed is it got some government funding, but the progress is much slower than J-20.

                          Russia won't get J-31, deal with it.
                          Last edited by RadDisconnect; 1st April 2019, 15:02.

                          Comment

                          • paralay
                            Rank 5 Registered User
                            • Aug 2005
                            • 1418

                            Originally posted by Vans View Post
                            ^ ROFLMAO, that was the best April fools one yet, especially the names.
                            https://www.google.ru/maps/@56.3232456,43.8524452,276m/data=!3m1!1e3

                            You can see this for yourself, here it is.

                            Click image for larger version

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                            Comment

                            • djcross
                              Rank 5 Registered User
                              • Jan 2000
                              • 5467

                              Please post a picture of Dr. Seksualnaya Zadnista so we can judge for ourselves.

                              Comment

                              • paralay
                                Rank 5 Registered User
                                • Aug 2005
                                • 1418

                                Click image for larger version

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                                Comment

                                • GromOzekA
                                  Rank 4 Registered User
                                  • May 2018
                                  • 42

                                  Originally posted by Scooter View Post


                                  In what respect is the J-31 a joke???
                                  In a list of all 5th gen fighters that are something more than just a prototypes, J-31 is less mature and developed of all of them.

                                  It looks like China put much more effort in J-20, Su-57 development started earlier and its development is much more active. It' looks like J-31 development is of very slow pace.

                                  Also, J-31 is kinda just a mix of drawbacks of MiG-29 and F-35. Look, it's small two engine fighter like MiG-29, but lacks its kinematic performance and ruggedness. It's overweight and oversized as F-35, but it lacks systems (IRST, EOTS, whatever) and advantages of single engine design.

                                  Comment

                                  • LMFS
                                    Rank 4 Registered User
                                    • Feb 2018
                                    • 562

                                    Originally posted by GromOzekA View Post

                                    In a list of all 5th gen fighters that are something more than just a prototypes, J-31 is less mature and developed of all of them.

                                    It looks like China put much more effort in J-20, Su-57 development started earlier and its development is much more active. It' looks like J-31 development is of very slow pace.

                                    Also, J-31 is kinda just a mix of drawbacks of MiG-29 and F-35. Look, it's small two engine fighter like MiG-29, but lacks its kinematic performance and ruggedness. It's overweight and oversized as F-35, but it lacks systems (IRST, EOTS, whatever) and advantages of single engine design.
                                    Good demolishing hahaha! A 5G fighter without a 5G engine is just heavier and slower than the 4G it substitutes, and way more expensive. Imagine the F-35 without the F135 or the F-16 with an equivalent engine of the proper size... the comparison between both would be baffling.

                                    Having said that, a proper engine will probably be developed but until then I don't expect the plane to be a hot rod exactly.

                                    Comment

                                    • Guest's Avatar
                                      Guest

                                      Originally posted by LMFS View Post

                                      Just what I meant, you still don't get that dollar is not the universal currency do you? MoD doesn't buy and doesn't think in dollars, try to imagine that abomination for a second. So what in 2009 could be 100 million would be now 50. Besides export prices are not domestic ones. Besides you provide no official source but only broad estimations from "guys" out there. Besides I have said this is my own estimation, nothing official. Russian officials said it would be 2-2.5 times cheaper than US models so make your own numbers. As proved above the domestic prices of Su-35 and Su-30 are around 30 millions, maybe even less. That would be their reference for what they consider acceptably expensive and too expensive, just use your common sense.

                                      BTW look what I found, from your source The Diplomat:
                                      The per-unit cost of a Su-57 is estimated to be around $40-45 million (or over 2.5 times cheaper than the U.S. F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter).

                                      https://thediplomat.com/2018/07/russ...h-fighter-jet/

                                      The Russian Su-57 fifth-generation fighter jet will be two and a half times cheaper than US Lockheed Martin F-35 fighter jet and F-22 stealth fighter aircraft, Russian lawmaker Vladimir Gutenev, a member of State Duma's expert panel on the aviation industry, told Sputnik.

                                      https://sputniknews.com/military/201...ma-su-fighter/
                                      Sorry, cost is greatly effected by the numbers produced. So, your $45 Million Dollar Price Tag is likely the average for 500 aircraft split between Russia and India. Yet, that deal is long since dead....

                                      Today a dozen are on order....and trust me they don't cost anything remotely close to $40-45 Million.

                                      Comment

                                      • LMFS
                                        Rank 4 Registered User
                                        • Feb 2018
                                        • 562

                                        Originally posted by Scooter View Post
                                        Sorry, cost is greatly effected by the numbers produced. So, your $45 Million Dollar Price Tag is likely the average for 500 aircraft split between Russia and India. Yet, that deal is long since dead....
                                        Again, they always produce small batches, look the Su-35 for instance. That keeps the manufacturer honest, if they don't deliver properly the MoD hangs them to dry. It seems to work.

                                        Today a dozen are on order....and trust me they don't cost anything remotely close to $40-45 Million.
                                        No, only 2 are on order. For the rest 13 for an initial first batch of 15, a contract is expected to be signed in 2020 but until then there is nothing official.

                                        And I will trust you with those figures when your following prophecies happen:

                                        > Turkey does not buy the S-400 && gets the F-35 instead.
                                        > Russia buys the FC-31 or J-31, whatever its name is instead of China getting the Su-57

                                        If you are right I promise to praise your supernatural powers. If not prepare to get truckloads of beers for the whole forum


                                        Comment

                                        • Levsha
                                          Rank 5 Registered User
                                          • Jan 2006
                                          • 2856

                                          Originally posted by GromOzekA View Post

                                          In a list of all 5th gen fighters that are something more than just a prototypes, J-31 is less mature and developed of all of them.
                                          It's certainly an immature design compared to F-22 and F-35 - compared to Su-57, who knows?

                                          but lacks its kinematic performance and ruggedness. It's overweight and oversized as F-35, but it lacks systems (IRST, EOTS, whatever) and advantages of single engine design.
                                          How do you know all this? That's right - you don't.

                                          Comment

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