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RuAF News and development Thread part 15

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  • GromOzekA
    Rank 4 Registered User
    • May 2018
    • 36

    Originally posted by LMFS View Post

    Do you have sources Paralay? To know the year when the currency conversion was done would be important too.

    There is a number of reasons why I don't completely agree on the figures above but would think it is better to see how they were calculated before discussing xD
    42$m cost is from the info about 2009 year contract. 66 billion of rubles for 48 fighters. exchange rate was about 32 rubles per 1 USD.

    But there is also the contract from 2015. Some sources claims it was about 100 billion, other "over a 60 billion" for 50 fighters. 2015 exchange rate was about 60 rubles. So fighters from the second contract was cheaper: 23-33$m

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    • LMFS
      Rank 4 Registered User
      • Feb 2018
      • 472

      Originally posted by GromOzekA View Post
      42$m cost is from the info about 2009 year contract. 66 billion of rubles for 48 fighters. exchange rate was about 32 rubles per 1 USD.

      But there is also the contract from 2015. Some sources claims it was about 100 billion, other "over a 60 billion" for 50 fighters. 2015 exchange rate was about 60 rubles. So fighters from the second contract was cheaper: 23-33$m
      Hey, that is very telling. 66 billion rubles today would be like 1 billion dollar... for almost 50 fighters, is ridiculous even considering inflation.

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      • paralay
        Rank 5 Registered User
        • Aug 2005
        • 1396

        Originally posted by LMFS View Post
        Do you have sources Paralay? To know the year when the currency conversion was done would be important too.
        Chinese contract for the supply of 48 Su-35 fighters for $ 4 billion. $ 1.5 billion for 24 fighters ($ 62.5 million apiece), 2009

        Indonesia wants to buy 11 SU-35 for $ 1.14 billion USA . To replace their old F-5 tigers. Last year, it was decided that Russia would accept Indonesian export products such as coffee, palm oil, and tea as payment. 103 636 363 mln. $ Apiece. August 13, 2018
        Last edited by paralay; 30th March 2019, 00:15.

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        • Austin
          Rank 5 Registered User
          • Oct 2003
          • 6463

          "A map does you no good if you don't know where you are"

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          • Austin
            Rank 5 Registered User
            • Oct 2003
            • 6463

            By a spotter https://www.instagram.com/p/BvoNoOVHbaY/
            "A map does you no good if you don't know where you are"

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            • LMFS
              Rank 4 Registered User
              • Feb 2018
              • 472

              Originally posted by paralay View Post

              Chinese contract for the supply of 48 Su-35 fighters for $ 4 billion. $ 1.5 billion for 24 fighters ($ 62.5 million apiece), 2009

              Indonesia wants to buy 11 SU-35 for $ 1.14 billion USA . To replace their old F-5 tigers. Last year, it was decided that Russia would accept Indonesian export products such as coffee, palm oil, and tea as payment. 103 636 363 mln. $ Apiece. August 13, 2018
              Thanks paralay,

              interesting, the Chinese contract is often mentioned as being 2 billion in value. The potential one with Egypt was also referred in almost the same terms. The one for Indonesia, given the payment conditions and number of aircraft maybe be understandably more expensive.

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              • Guest's Avatar
                Guest

                Originally posted by haavarla View Post

                Where is the source that Chinese goverment is funding FC-31, Scooter?
                Avics J-31 Fighter Is a Winner After All

                Nov 9, 2018 Bradley Perrett and Steve Trimble | Aviation Week & Space Technology





                Not long after the J-31 fighter prototype from Avics Shenyang Aircraft Corp. appeared in 2012, analysts realized that it was not, after all, a new combat aircraft for the Chinese military. It was just a technology demonstrator from a well-resourced but frustrated state company that had lost two air force fighter competitions in a row. Now the J-31 has indeed become a government-funded project, apparently rescued by the shortcomings of the J-15, a naval Flanker derivative also built ...



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                • Guest's Avatar
                  Guest

                  Originally posted by LMFS View Post
                  It is useless to discuss with this kind of people that are trolling anything non-US based in terribly flawed data and hiding behind vague claims. The first serial Su-57 is coming this year, development continues on a big scale as scheduled and the plane could be deployed in VVS in full normality analogous to Su-35 and Flanker in its day, nobody will ever talk of the J-31 in RuAF but still we will hear the claim that the program is an abject failure because it is not deployed in "substantial" numbers, being "substantial" whatever arbitrary amount that suits the agenda. It does not matter that VVS is defensive in essence, if they don't field thousands and thousands of 5G fighters which are an exact copy of US planes they will be hopelessly doomed. And if they copy the US way then they will be copycats like they claim from the Chinese so better to let it be. It does not even matter that thousands of US 5G fighters attacking Russia would unleash a nuclear retaliation for these logic-free arguments.
                  How many Su-57's has the Russian Government committed too!

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                  • Guest's Avatar
                    Guest

                    Originally posted by stealthflanker View Post
                    Well it's because J-31 look closer to US approach. XD
                    The Su-57 is a Heavy Fighter correct???


                    So, is closer in size and role to the F-22 or F-35???

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                    • Guest's Avatar
                      Guest

                      Originally posted by GromOzekA View Post
                      Your opinion costs nothing because it has zero basis.

                      You are right that jet called Su-57 may be many things (a failure or a success). But the design, the concept is really clever. It much better balanced and capable than F-22 or 35 (donno about J-20).

                      Also, India was not partner at any point of time. Indian "dances" about military tenders is well known. FGFA story is just one of them.

                      J-31 is nothing but a joke atm.

                      In what respect is the J-31 a joke???

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                      • Guest's Avatar
                        Guest

                        Originally posted by FBW View Post

                        Thats fundamentally revisionist, Russia and India signed an IGA for the design stage, basically a co-development of the FGFA based on the Pak-Fa project. They contributed roughly 300 million USD (2010) in the development stage. Disagreements over India specific design elements betwen Pak-Fa and FGFA, cost sharing, and Indias share of co-production sunk the project.
                        .....and shortcomings (performance) too!

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                        • Guest's Avatar
                          Guest

                          Originally posted by eagle View Post

                          Probably... though I'm not really sure if Scooter's obsession with a Russian "J-31" is just his idea of a running gag...
                          Or maybe in his F-35-uber-alles world the F-35 is the bestest, cheapest super fighter for everyone. If your air force for whatever reason can't be part of the illustrious F-35 circle, the only viable alternative is "J-31". Because it looks similar to an F-35.

                          J-31 in quotes because obviously no such thing actually exists.
                          Maybe - probably - one day China will have another VLO fighter besides the J-20. Russian AF will not have the same type.
                          The Su-57 is a Heavy Fighter with a core Air Superiority Role. Much like the US F-22 and Chinese J-20. While, the F-35 and J-31 are Mid-Sized Strike Fighters.

                          The latter types will be the cornerstone of the USAF and PLAAF.

                          Russia doesn't have such a type. Nor, has the Su-57 been entirely successful. Even if it "was" the latter is ill suited to the mission and could never be produced in the numbers needed.


                          What don't you guys get???

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                          • stealthflanker
                            Rank 5 Registered User
                            • Sep 2015
                            • 1007

                            Originally posted by Scooter View Post

                            The Su-57 is a Heavy Fighter correct???


                            So, is closer in size and role to the F-22 or F-35???
                            Eh, Well i merely state that your obsession toward J-31 is because it's closer to US designs. I wonder if it's true.



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                            • Guest's Avatar
                              Guest

                              Originally posted by RadDisconnect View Post

                              Good point. There is so much more development uncertainty for J-31 and the project isn't even fully backed by PLAAF/PLAN.

                              LOL The J-31/FC-31 is fully funded by the Chinese Government is progressing well.

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                              • Guest's Avatar
                                Guest

                                Originally posted by LMFS View Post
                                I think Russia tried to lure India with a program that was a win-win for both. They would get additional money and ensure their partnership long term and India would get lots of ToT that are simply not available anywhere else, I think in fact Russia went quite far in terms of concessions. But India was not ready for the effort and Russia was not ready for the Indian demands I guess so it didn't work in that format, irrespective of what happens in the future. In any case the program was never coupled to PAK-FA, it was always stated they were two different planes


                                Pretty much! Russian industry cannot allow themselves to lose PAK-FA. They simply can't.


                                Hahaha, that's it! In the world measured in dollars, they cannot imagine that Russia can buy the Su-57 because it will cost them like the F-22 or so, so better to admit their insignificance and settle for a medium or light fighter like the J-31, even if it is useless. Hardly can they imagine that the RF is buying Su-35s under $30 million and that probably Su-57, if it is very expensive as they admitted, will come at $45-50 million. That is just my guess, but officials have already said the plane will cost 2-2.5 times less than the American examples so it can be in that ballpark indeed. Now look what is the cost of a medium fighter in the international market and try to get a 5G one for something like that. These are simply ridiculous propositions...

                                India left the PAK-FA/FGFA for two main reasons. One, it wasn't happy with the level of technology from the program. Two, the Su-57 didn't live up to performance expectations.

                                Also, the Su-57 is really nothing more than a research project at this stage or maybe even a "Demonstrator". It will never be massed produced. Yet, keep dreaming if they like.....

                                LOL $45-50 Million......The price was quoted at ~ $100 Million from the start. Plus, considering the very small numbers produced. That is "extremely" optimistic.

                                If, you guys are so smart and the Su-57 is soooo capable and soooo cheap. Why aren't the Russians building them in larger numbers. In addition why did India leave the program and why can't they secure a single export order for the type....

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                                • Guest's Avatar
                                  Guest

                                  Originally posted by LMFS View Post

                                  Do you have sources Paralay? To know the year when the currency conversion was done would be important too.

                                  There is a number of reasons why I don't completely agree on the figures above but would think it is better to see how they were calculated before discussing xD
                                  QUOTE:

                                  Each fifth generation fighter is likely to cost India about 100 million dollars.

                                  http://www.sify.com/news/india-to-jo...erudjjcjc.html


                                  QUOTE:

                                  The Russian and Indian air forces each plan to build about 250 FGFAs, at an estimated cost of $100 million per fighter.

                                  https://www.business-standard.com/ar...1502009_1.html

                                  QUOTE:

                                  ......and fighters estimated to cost approximately $100 million each at minimum

                                  https://militarywatchmagazine.com/ar...mean-for-hanoi

                                  QUOTE: (Russian Source)

                                  Firstly, the price of one Su-57 without armament can reach $100 million. Without doubt this is a very effective yet costly machine, said Dmitry Safonov, military analyst from the Izvestia newspaper.

                                  https://www.rbth.com/science-and-tec...ussias-top-jet

                                  Comment

                                  • RadDisconnect
                                    Rank 5 Registered User
                                    • Jul 2013
                                    • 523

                                    Originally posted by Scooter View Post
                                    Avics J-31 Fighter Is a Winner After All

                                    Nov 9, 2018 Bradley Perrett and Steve Trimble | Aviation Week & Space Technology





                                    Not long after the J-31 fighter prototype from Avics Shenyang Aircraft Corp. appeared in 2012, analysts realized that it was not, after all, a new combat aircraft for the Chinese military. It was just a technology demonstrator from a well-resourced but frustrated state company that had lost two air force fighter competitions in a row. Now the J-31 has indeed become a government-funded project, apparently rescued by the shortcomings of the J-15, a naval Flanker derivative also built ...

                                    Because Shenyang LOST to Chengdu. J-31 support is lukewarm at best and mainly because J-15 is having trouble.

                                    Are you Corsaid1963 on f-16.net? Because no one, not even people on f-16.net are taking your J-31 theory seriously.

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                                    • Guest's Avatar
                                      Guest

                                      Originally posted by RadDisconnect View Post

                                      Because Shenyang LOST to Chengdu. J-31 support is lukewarm at best and mainly because J-15 is having trouble.

                                      Are you Corsaid1963 on f-16.net? Because no one, not even people on f-16.net are taking your J-31 theory seriously.

                                      Laughable......Just because the J-31 has gained Chinese Government Funding. Hardly, means that is because the J-15 is or isn't having issues. It is because China needs a mid-sized 5th Generation Strike Fighter in the class of the F-35. Which, can be produced in large numbers and be operated by the PLAAF, PLAN, and Export.

                                      Yes, I am Corsair1963 from f-16.net. Yet, please enlighten me on all the members from F-16.net that don't take my theory seriously??? (LOL)

                                      Oh, you must me a member of f-16.net. So, what username do you use on that forum?


                                      So, I guess your one of those DREAMERS? That believe Russia is going to build "several hundred" if not thousands of Su-57's!

                                      Comment

                                      • Austin
                                        Rank 5 Registered User
                                        • Oct 2003
                                        • 6463

                                        Originally posted by Scooter View Post

                                        QUOTE:

                                        Each fifth generation fighter is likely to cost India about 100 million dollars.

                                        http://www.sify.com/news/india-to-jo...erudjjcjc.html


                                        QUOTE:

                                        The Russian and Indian air forces each plan to build about 250 FGFAs, at an estimated cost of $100 million per fighter.

                                        https://www.business-standard.com/ar...1502009_1.html

                                        QUOTE:

                                        ......and fighters estimated to cost approximately $100 million each at minimum

                                        https://militarywatchmagazine.com/ar...mean-for-hanoi

                                        QUOTE: (Russian Source)

                                        Firstly, the price of one Su-57 without armament can reach $100 million. Without doubt this is a very effective yet costly machine, said Dmitry Safonov, military analyst from the Izvestia newspaper.

                                        https://www.rbth.com/science-and-tec...ussias-top-jet

                                        Indian Russia FGFA deal involved more than aircraft purchase , it factored TOT cost , Lic Production cost , Cost of Infra .......something similar to MKI but much more broader.

                                        Hence any figures quoting $`100 million or less or more is not a definative figure but more of talking point ........It could have been easily more or little less depending the final outcome of negotiation which never happened in the end.
                                        "A map does you no good if you don't know where you are"

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                                        • Guest's Avatar
                                          Guest

                                          While, some may believe a Russian J-31 is pure folly and will never happen. The only alternative is Russia builds vast numbers of Su-57's. Yet, I've seen nothing to remotely suggest that they will.


                                          Yet, I am all ears if anybody has a credible source to prove me wrong.......

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