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RuAF News and development Thread part 15

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    Originally posted by blackwood View Post

    You hit the nail on the head, they dont need the J-31, alternative, dont neef it
    LOL


    Really, so the Mighty Red Army (i.e. Russian Military) is going to concede it's place on the World Stage and become a Minor Power??? As without a credible Air Force. It would have no hope of defending Mother Russia. Let along projecting military power. Which, means it would hold no respect across the globe.

    Remember, you can't win on the Ground or at Sea without "Air Superiority". Which, you can't do post 2030 with Soviet Era Designs. That is just the cold hard truth....

    In ten years time there will be over 1000 Stealth Fighters flying with Air Forces. That are not at all friendly with Russia. Yet, your telling me Russia doesn't need the J-31.

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    • XB-70
      Rank 4 Registered User
      • May 2018
      • 366

      Sorry, the J-20 and J-31 were designed to be all aspect stealth from the very beginning.
      I would agree with you on the J-20, not the FC-31. The J-20 program has the backing of the Chinese government. It's getting any and all needed resources thrown into it. The FC-31 is only being developed by Shenyang. The WS-13 engine is actually intended for the JF-17 (It is NOT part of a stealth program!!). The engine just marked as the FC-31's domestic engine because that is all that is available, and the FC-31 isn't flying with it either. And, given the troubles the Chinese engine manufacturers are having just producing reliable engines, the idea of them producing an updated version for signature reduction (and without the full backing of the Chinese state) in the near term is quite far fetched. But then again, the FC-31 design is not even close to ready as it's not even flying with it's electro-optical systems and who knows what else.

      The FC-31 was a good learning opportunity for Shenyang, but it is not intended to be an all aspect stealth fighter and hasn't had the resources put into it to make it so. I know you like to troll, Scooter, but you have become ridiculous. The Russians will use the Su-57 because it is the more advanced fighter. By no small amount either.

      If you want to pimp a Chinese fighter, go with the J-20. It actually has potential for full development within the next 5 yrs.

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        Originally posted by XB-70 View Post

        I would agree with you on the J-20, not the FC-31. The J-20 program has the backing of the Chinese government. It's getting any and all needed resources thrown into it. The FC-31 is only being developed by Shenyang. The WS-13 engine is actually intended for the JF-17 (It is NOT part of a stealth program!!). The engine just marked as the FC-31's domestic engine because that is all that is available, and the FC-31 isn't flying with it either. And, given the troubles the Chinese engine manufacturers are having just producing reliable engines, the idea of them producing an updated version for signature reduction (and without the full backing of the Chinese state) in the near term is quite far fetched. But then again, the FC-31 design is not even close to ready as it's not even flying with it's electro-optical systems and who knows what else.

        The FC-31 was a good learning opportunity for Shenyang, but it is not intended to be an all aspect stealth fighter and hasn't had the resources put into it to make it so. I know you like to troll, Scooter, but you have become ridiculous. The Russians will use the Su-57 because it is the more advanced fighter. By no small amount either.

        If you want to pimp a Chinese fighter, go with the J-20. It actually has potential for full development within the next 5 yrs.
        You have no idea what you're talking about. As The Chinese Government is fully funding the J-31/FC-31. As a matter of fact it's more advance than the J-20 in many respects and will become the cornerstone of the PLAAF/PLAN post 2030. (much like the F-35 in the West)


        This should make it fairly exportable too! Again similar to the F-35....


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        • XB-70
          Rank 4 Registered User
          • May 2018
          • 366

          ...it's (FC-31) more advance than the J-20 in many respects
          I gotta call you out on this trolling. Name 5 then! I'm waiting.

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          • Guest's Avatar
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            Originally posted by XB-70 View Post

            I gotta call you out on this trolling. Name 5 then! I'm waiting.

            Really, oh I am scared....


            The J-31 was developed much later than the J-20. Which, means they have learned many things from the J-20 and built upon them. Just like the F-35 did over the earlier F-22...(hardly a surprise)


            So, you don't believe that Stealth, Avionics, and Engine Technology improved during that time frame between the J-20 and second series J-31 or you think China said nope. We aren't going to use any advancement in technology or lesson learned. We'll just stick with the old technology!


            In addition the time gained between the J-20 and J-31 allowed China to do further Research and Development plus access to more Foreign Technology.(whenever possible) Which, they to could incorporate in the latter. As a matter of fact the J-31 was given a major redesign with the V1-2 Prototypes. Which, speaks volumes....

            Now to your question the majority of the improvement made to the J-31 vs the J-20. For the most part aren't visual from the outside at least in layman terms. The major areas are Stealth (Shape and Materials) and Sensor Fusion. As the latter will incorporated sensors throughout the airframe. As it was designed from the ground up much closer to the F-35. (i.e. integrated sensors)

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            • Guest's Avatar
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              Why would Russia want the larger and more expensive J-20. Which, like the US F-22 and Russian Su-57 are large Air Superiority Types. The whole point here is to field an affordable Mid-sized Strike Fighter. That it could produce in respectable numbers.....

              Honestly, it would be nice to debate somebody. That had some real knowledge of the subject matter and live in the "Real World". Instead of some fantasy land....Hell, some here may as well be talking about X-Wing Fighters from Star Wars....

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              • Guest's Avatar
                Guest

                I still haven't heard a real serious alternative to Russian J-31. That is a viable option.....

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                • Guest's Avatar
                  Guest

                  What Russia needs is simple......It needs a mid-sized 5th Generation Strike Fighter. That is affordable that it can produce in respectable numbers. This is easily "supportable".


                  The US and China have one. While, a number of other countries have similar fighters in development.

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                  • XB-70
                    Rank 4 Registered User
                    • May 2018
                    • 366

                    Scooter - LOL! You fall back on a simple 'I believe'

                    Which, means they have learned many things from the J-20 and built upon them. Just like the F-35 did over the earlier F-22...(hardly a surprise)
                    Yes, LOCKHEED learned a lot from when LOCKHEED built the F-22 which helped with LOCKHEED building the F-35. That don't mean that SHENYANG learned much from CHENGDU's J-20 program.

                    So, you don't believe that Stealth, Avionics, and Engine Technology improved during that time frame between the J-20 and second series J-31 or you think China said nope. We aren't going to use any advancement in technology or lesson learned. We'll just stick with the old technology!
                    The Chinese defense industry as a whole certainly learned a lot. The real question is whether that knowledge, and the technology developed, has filtered over to Shenyang's program. And, China's development is a black box. There is no guarantee either way. But there is good reason to doubt it - such as the lack of a dedicated 5th gen engine being assigned to the FC-31 program. And stop with the emojis. They are always a poor substitute for intelligence.

                    Now to your question the majority of the improvement made to the J-31 vs the J-20. For the most part aren't visual from the outside at least in layman terms. The major areas are Stealth (Shape and Materials) and Sensor Fusion.
                    What improvement in shape? It doesn't have an engine dedicated to stealth assigned to it! And we have no idea how well it fares in other aspects such as the cockpit. And the same goes to materials. And these two things go together and so we really, really have no idea. And what sensor fusion? It's not even flying with an IRST/EODAS!! (Look at the photo you gave for goodness) There's nothing fused because there is nothing to fuse!

                    The Su-57 and J-20 are genuine 5th gen designs which will wrap up in the mid 20s. The FC-31 isn't and can never be without a lot of love put into it.

                    So, can you please take this nonsense to the PLAAF airpower thread and leave this to legitimate RuAF discussion?

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                    • Guest's Avatar
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                      Originally posted by XB-70 View Post
                      Scooter - LOL! You fall back on a simple 'I believe'



                      Yes, LOCKHEED learned a lot from when LOCKHEED built the F-22 which helped with LOCKHEED building the F-35. That don't mean that SHENYANG learned much from CHENGDU's J-20 program.



                      The Chinese defense industry as a whole certainly learned a lot. The real question is whether that knowledge, and the technology developed, has filtered over to Shenyang's program. And, China's development is a black box. There is no guarantee either way. But there is good reason to doubt it - such as the lack of a dedicated 5th gen engine being assigned to the FC-31 program. And stop with the emojis. They are always a poor substitute for intelligence.



                      What improvement in shape? It doesn't have an engine dedicated to stealth assigned to it! And we have no idea how well it fares in other aspects such as the cockpit. And the same goes to materials. And these two things go together and so we really, really have no idea. And what sensor fusion? It's not even flying with an IRST/EODAS!! (Look at the photo you gave for goodness) There's nothing fused because there is nothing to fuse!

                      The Su-57 and J-20 are genuine 5th gen designs which will wrap up in the mid 20s. The FC-31 isn't and can never be without a lot of love put into it.

                      So, can you please take this nonsense to the PLAAF airpower thread and leave this to legitimate RuAF discussion?
                      Honestly, go waste somebody else's time.........

                      Comment

                      • XB-70
                        Rank 4 Registered User
                        • May 2018
                        • 366

                        I gave you your answer, Scooter. The "sensible" and "realistic" path forward for the RuAF is the Su-57. Why?

                        1) It is far more capable - having a much larger sensory capacity, much greater flight endurance, fits within an A2AD defense policy better by its ability to carry long range weaponry internally to threated AWACS and such while in a stealth configuration, existing DIRCM mounts allow for interesting upgrade paths, and its supercruise ability will allow it to cover great distances fast. (The last part is very important for Russia)

                        2) It is the cheap option. Most of the costs have already been paid. The platform is in the last bit of the testing and verification stage. The FC-31 would need major investment $$$ to develop the technology and systems to bring it up to par.

                        3) It is the timely option. The FC-31 isn't anywhere near ready. And it would take China or Russia 15 years to create a fitting engine for it.

                        And I only asked you for 5 points, troll!

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                          Originally posted by XB-70 View Post
                          I gave you your answer, Scooter. The "sensible" and "realistic" path forward for the RuAF is the Su-57. Why?

                          1) It is far more capable - having a much larger sensory capacity, much greater flight endurance, fits within an A2AD defense policy better by its ability to carry long range weaponry internally to threated AWACS and such while in a stealth configuration, existing DIRCM mounts allow for interesting upgrade paths, and its supercruise ability will allow it to cover great distances fast. (The last part is very important for Russia)

                          2) It is the cheap option. Most of the costs have already been paid. The platform is in the last bit of the testing and verification stage. The FC-31 would need major investment $$$ to develop the technology and systems to bring it up to par.

                          3) It is the timely option. The FC-31 isn't anywhere near ready. And it would take China or Russia 15 years to create a fitting engine for it.

                          And I only asked you for 5 points, troll!
                          Absurd we've seen nothing to suggest the Su-57 is more capable or advance than either the J-20 or J-31. Honestly, most in the "West" have little fear of it. Yet, are very concern with the latter two. Which, speaks volumes.....


                          Plus, most don't expect the Su-57 to be built in large numbers. As a matter of fact Russia has only placed very small order for a dozen or so thus far. With no hint that any even modest orders are in the works.

                          Honestly, I've not seen a single source that believe Russia will "ever" build the Su-57 in modest numbers let alone large numbers!


                          Yet, for argument sake let's say Russia will build 150-200 Su-57's. This would be similar to the F-22 Raptor. Yet, the US and her Allies also will have thousands of F-35's. This means Russia on the other hand would need at least few hundred if not several hundred similar type fighters. In order to have at bare minimum a credible deterrent......


                          This of course get's back to the J-31 as the only viable solution for Russia......


                          Think of it this way....Russia would need a Hi/Lo mix just like the US (F-22/F-35) and China (J-20/J-31). If, it wants to be competitive and play with the Big Boys.

                          That is "never" going to happen with the Su-57 alone.....

                          Do we have anyone that seriously believe Russia is going to produce several hundred if not a thousand Su-57's??? Anyone....





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                          • Guest's Avatar
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                            Originally posted by XB-70 View Post
                            I gave you your answer, Scooter. The "sensible" and "realistic" path forward for the RuAF is the Su-57. Why?

                            1) It is far more capable - having a much larger sensory capacity, much greater flight endurance, fits within an A2AD defense policy better by its ability to carry long range weaponry internally to threated AWACS and such while in a stealth configuration, existing DIRCM mounts allow for interesting upgrade paths, and its supercruise ability will allow it to cover great distances fast. (The last part is very important for Russia)

                            2) It is the cheap option. Most of the costs have already been paid. The platform is in the last bit of the testing and verification stage. The FC-31 would need major investment $$$ to develop the technology and systems to bring it up to par.

                            3) It is the timely option. The FC-31 isn't anywhere near ready. And it would take China or Russia 15 years to create a fitting engine for it.

                            And I only asked you for 5 points, troll!
                            BTW The Chinese Government is fully vested in the J-31. Which, as I said before will become the "cornerstone" of the PLAAF/PLAN. So, it won't be long before it blows by the Su-57. As China continues to pump vast sums into it's development.


                            That isn't being Pro-China or Anti-Russian. That is just the way it is........

                            Only difference between me and you. Is I don't have my fingers in my ears.

                            Comment

                            • XB-70
                              Rank 4 Registered User
                              • May 2018
                              • 366

                              Honestly, I don't know anywhere near enough about the J-20 to make a judgment on it for comparison purposes. Like I said, the Chinese developments are a black hole. The only serious doubt I have with Chinese industry pertains to their engines. Because their civilian programs are mostly transparent and their modern civil airline engine (CJ-1000) is...a long work in progress. But the FC-31 is obviously not ready. And all it takes to know that is a cursory look to see it is missing all kinds of things.

                              As for your point about the numbers that the Russians might field, well, there are two things wrong with it. 1) Neither of us knows as that is their choice and 2) They are building a drone for the strike role and so don't need a manned 5th gen craft for that. So they don't need to match theater F-22s and F-35s with the Su-57.

                              BTW The Chinese Government is fully vested in the J-31. Which, as I said before will become the "cornerstone" of the PLAAF/PLAN. So, it won't be long before it blows by the Su-57. As China continues to pump vast sums into it's development.
                              Won't happen, because it wouldn't make sense to. There are only two flying FC-31 prototypes. How long has it been since the 2nd J-20 prototype flew? And that aircraft is still in development! It's mostly done, sure, but they are still working on the engines and maybe a bit more. By the time the Chinese could get the FC-31 fully up to speed the 6th gens will be right around the corner. So the PLAAF will move on to a 6th gen design. The PLAN might build a J-31 in limited numbers as the better than nothing option. Otherwise, assuming Shenyang finishes the bird, they will just float it on the market as an almost 5th gen aircraft. And if it sells then that is good enough for them.

                              The cornerstone of the RuAF will be the Su-57 and the cornerstone of the PLAAF will be the J-20. You couldn't possibly be more wrong.

                              Comment

                              • paralay
                                Rank 5 Registered User
                                • Aug 2005
                                • 1418

                                Total combat effectiveness:
                                J -20 - 2.25
                                J -31 - 2.28
                                Su-57 - 3.28

                                Russians can do with one type of aircraft to solve all problems.

                                Comment

                                • RadDisconnect
                                  Rank 5 Registered User
                                  • Jul 2013
                                  • 531

                                  Russian air force won't need J-31. Not even PLAAF or PLAN are fully backing it, it's a Shenyang project. Scooter, get out of your F-35 centric thinking and realize maybe there are different doctrines that don't operate the way US operate? For all troubles Su-57 is having, it's much more developed than J-31 is.

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                                  • haavarla
                                    Rank 5 Registered User
                                    • Dec 2008
                                    • 6715

                                    Originally posted by Scooter View Post

                                    You have no idea what you're talking about. As The Chinese Government is fully funding the J-31/FC-31. As a matter of fact it's more advance than the J-20 in many respects and will become the cornerstone of the PLAAF/PLAN post 2030. (much like the F-35 in the West)


                                    This should make it fairly exportable too! Again similar to the F-35....

                                    Where is the source that Chinese goverment is funding FC-31, Scooter?
                                    Thanks

                                    Comment

                                    • LMFS
                                      Rank 4 Registered User
                                      • Feb 2018
                                      • 562

                                      It is useless to discuss with this kind of people that are trolling anything non-US based in terribly flawed data and hiding behind vague claims. The first serial Su-57 is coming this year, development continues on a big scale as scheduled and the plane could be deployed in VVS in full normality analogous to Su-35 and Flanker in its day, nobody will ever talk of the J-31 in RuAF but still we will hear the claim that the program is an abject failure because it is not deployed in "substantial" numbers, being "substantial" whatever arbitrary amount that suits the agenda. It does not matter that VVS is defensive in essence, if they don't field thousands and thousands of 5G fighters which are an exact copy of US planes they will be hopelessly doomed. And if they copy the US way then they will be copycats like they claim from the Chinese so better to let it be. It does not even matter that thousands of US 5G fighters attacking Russia would unleash a nuclear retaliation for these logic-free arguments.

                                      Comment

                                      • stealthflanker
                                        Rank 5 Registered User
                                        • Sep 2015
                                        • 1027

                                        Well it's because J-31 look closer to US approach. XD

                                        Comment

                                        • GromOzekA
                                          Rank 4 Registered User
                                          • May 2018
                                          • 42

                                          Originally posted by Scooter View Post

                                          The Su-57 maybe many things. Yet, I would hardly call it clever??? As a matter of fact it's pretty much a failure. As Russia's only partner "India" left the program. Due to cost and "shortcomings" in the design. In addition the development has very slow. Either from extremely limited funding or technical problems. (likely both)


                                          This in turn has pretty much killed any export potential for the type. So, I see it's prospects as very "grim"....


                                          Honestly, in my opinion I see Russia adopting the J-31 at some point in the future. As it real has few if any alternatives.
                                          Your opinion costs nothing because it has zero basis.

                                          You are right that jet called Su-57 may be many things (a failure or a success). But the design, the concept is really clever. It much better balanced and capable than F-22 or 35 (donno about J-20).

                                          Also, India was not partner at any point of time. Indian "dances" about military tenders is well known. FGFA story is just one of them.

                                          J-31 is nothing but a joke atm.

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