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RuAF News and development Thread part 15

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  • Austin
    Rank 5 Registered User
    • Oct 2003
    • 6512

    paralay Thanks.

    So for PAK-FA they have both Single Engine and Twin Engine configuration available.
    "A map does you no good if you don't know where you are"

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    • Guest's Avatar
      Guest

      Honestly, Russia made a "colossal" mistake. When it decided to develop the PAK-FA over the LMFS. As the latter could have been produced in large numbers. Making it both affordable and most of all "EXPORTABLE".


      Now Russia is pretty much screwed with few options. Which, is why I believe it is only a matter of time. Before it is forced to adopt the Chinese J-20 or more likely the J-31. Yet, any RuAF Version could still have considerable Russian Content. As they both already use Russian Engines and could easily include Russian Avionics and Weapons. This would allow them to at least save a little pride........... Click image for larger version

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      • haavarla
        Rank 5 Registered User
        • Dec 2008
        • 6715

        soo.. The FakFa is a continuation of the Heavy class fighter, same as Flanker deriatives.
        And scooter here mean to say the Flanker'ish has seen no Export, IMO a colossal mistake.
        As if this guy cannot take any more embarresment, you just proved me wrong.
        Customers whom allready has heavy Flanker wont buy any light fighter on top(hi/low) them. it would be wastefull double expenses.
        And lets be real, the countries whom bought Flankers are the very same market as would buy your would be light fighter.
        Man this is BS on so many different levels. How successfull has Gripen Tejas, fj-17 or F-16 been this last decade?
        The F-35 market is a consolidated one, and F-35 is far from any light fighter.
        On the same token Medium fighter market is kind of struggeling. Mig-29, SH, F-15, Rafale and EF has limited market prospects.
        If a country goes for heavy multirole class fighter, chances are they wont need another light fighter to do the same job, only less effective, If we disregard some filthy rich arab oil nations..
        Last edited by haavarla; 26th March 2019, 19:47.
        Thanks

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        • GromOzekA
          Rank 4 Registered User
          • May 2018
          • 42

          Originally posted by Scooter View Post
          Honestly, Russia made a "colossal" mistake. When it decided to develop the PAK-FA over the LMFS. As the latter could have been produced in large numbers. Making it both affordable and most of all "EXPORTABLE".
          In fact, PAK-FA is a very clever design. May be the best at the moment.

          Single engine fighters was great back in old days. F-16 was great success, because it's single engine. MiG-29 is kinda failure, because it's a twin engine but light fighter. Engines was been a significant fraction of a cost of a fighter. It also was a key maintenance expenses.

          Now things are different. Fighters have a lot of expensive systems on board. Radars, antennas, ECM, EOS, whatever. It all needs power, it all needs cooling (space), it all needs maintenance. Composite airframes and stealth coatings are also not comparable in maintenance and production cost with a simple aluminum alloys and paint. Modern engines on the other hand have had increased lifespan and lower maintenance costs if we compare them to 4th gen engines. Weapon bays adds weight and drag to and airframe, so the fighter needs more thrust and fuel to catch up with a 4th gen fighters performance.

          This all makes 5th gen engines a much smaller fraction of a cost of 5th gen fighter in comparison to 4th gen. So 5th gen single engine fighter losing its key advantage over twin engine fighters (cost), but inherits all the disadvantages like limited range, speed, climbing and payload.

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          • XB-70
            Rank 4 Registered User
            • May 2018
            • 366

            Now things are different. Fighters have a lot of expensive systems on board. Radars, antennas, ECM, EOS, whatever. It all needs power, it all needs cooling (space), it all needs maintenance.
            That's the key right there. No way would the Su-57 be able to drive all of its radar and EW arrays and DIRCMs with just a single engine. The shifts in systems costs is true, but it is the need for electrical power which is the big driver. And future designs will only need more and more electrical power.

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            • Guest's Avatar
              Guest

              Originally posted by GromOzekA View Post
              In fact, PAK-FA is a very clever design. May be the best at the moment.

              Single engine fighters was great back in old days. F-16 was great success, because it's single engine. MiG-29 is kinda failure, because it's a twin engine but light fighter. Engines was been a significant fraction of a cost of a fighter. It also was a key maintenance expenses.

              Now things are different. Fighters have a lot of expensive systems on board. Radars, antennas, ECM, EOS, whatever. It all needs power, it all needs cooling (space), it all needs maintenance. Composite airframes and stealth coatings are also not comparable in maintenance and production cost with a simple aluminum alloys and paint. Modern engines on the other hand have had increased lifespan and lower maintenance costs if we compare them to 4th gen engines. Weapon bays adds weight and drag to and airframe, so the fighter needs more thrust and fuel to catch up with a 4th gen fighters performance.

              This all makes 5th gen engines a much smaller fraction of a cost of 5th gen fighter in comparison to 4th gen. So 5th gen single engine fighter losing its key advantage over twin engine fighters (cost), but inherits all the disadvantages like limited range, speed, climbing and payload.
              The Su-57 maybe many things. Yet, I would hardly call it clever??? As a matter of fact it's pretty much a failure. As Russia's only partner "India" left the program. Due to cost and "shortcomings" in the design. In addition the development has very slow. Either from extremely limited funding or technical problems. (likely both)


              This in turn has pretty much killed any export potential for the type. So, I see it's prospects as very "grim"....


              Honestly, in my opinion I see Russia adopting the J-31 at some point in the future. As it real has few if any alternatives.

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              • blackwood
                Rank 5 Registered User
                • Dec 2011
                • 314

                Originally posted by Scooter View Post

                The Su-57 maybe many things. Yet, I would hardly call it clever??? As a matter of fact it's pretty much a failure. As Russia's only partner "India" left the program. Due to cost and "shortcomings" in the design. In addition the development has very slow. Either from extremely limited funding or technical problems. (likely both)


                This in turn has pretty much killed any export potential for the type. So, I see it's prospects as very "grim"....


                Honestly, in my opinion I see Russia adopting the J-31 at some point in the future. As it real has few if any alternatives.
                Russia would rather build there own sixth gen plane then buy J-31, why degrade your industry base. Jump a generation of small planes and wait for sixth, pak-fa keeps the high ground and your small plane is 6th gen. Jumping J-31, tailess which they are already doing with the escort drone for the Pak-fa.
                Really i think you get a comission from China or your such a fan of Pak-fa that you like self harm, not sure yet

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                • paralay
                  Rank 5 Registered User
                  • Aug 2005
                  • 1418

                  The Russians bought several warplanes from the Germans before world War II. Conducted tests and have made conclusions. To be put into service of military equipment of the potential enemy stupidity. Argentina paid dearly for this in 1982. China is a potential enemy, more dangerous than the US by 2030.

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                  • Guest's Avatar
                    Guest

                    Originally posted by blackwood View Post

                    Russia would rather build there own sixth gen plane then buy J-31, why degrade your industry base. Jump a generation of small planes and wait for sixth, pak-fa keeps the high ground and your small plane is 6th gen. Jumping J-31, tailess which they are already doing with the escort drone for the Pak-fa.
                    Really i think you get a comission from China or your such a fan of Pak-fa that you like self harm, not sure yet
                    I have no doubt that Russia would rather build her own 6th Generation Fighter. Then adapting a Chinese Design like the J-31 for the RuAF. Yet, you make it sound like she really has a choice?

                    On average it takes a good 20+ years to Design, Test, and Field a New Fighter. That is assuming you have adequate funding over the entire development. Which, is the case of Russia is highly questionable. As Russia is no longer the Super Power of the Soviet Union Era. As her current GDP is more in line with Australia and Canada than major Western European Powers (France, Germany, or UK) let alone someone like China, India, or the US.

                    Also, remember Russia is the largest nation on earth with vast boarders to protect! So, how many Stealth Fighters would Russia need by post 2030??? Key in mind the US and her Allies alone with have thousands of Stealth Fighters. While, China is likely to have half that number.


                    This leads to the options Russia has and the numbers she will need? So, we've already established it would 20+ years before Russia could field a New Fighter. That is assuming she has the vast funding available and suffers no major problems or delays. (also highly questionable)


                    This means in the short-term her only solution would be to acquire a foreign design! Yet, not like the US or Europe or Asia is going to sell Russia an Advance Stealth Fighter. So, who does that leave left..................Drum Roll........ah, maybe China??? (Bingo)


                    Hence why I said the J-31. Which, is affordable, available, and could use a number of Russian Components. Which, would make it politically acceptable.



                    As I see no other options. Nor, has anybody else ever came up with a plausible alternative!









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                    • Guest's Avatar
                      Guest

                      Originally posted by paralay View Post
                      The Russians bought several warplanes from the Germans before world War II. Conducted tests and have made conclusions. To be put into service of military equipment of the potential enemy stupidity. Argentina paid dearly for this in 1982. China is a potential enemy, more dangerous than the US by 2030.
                      Russia has had no problem with stealing and/or buying foreign designs. When it was in her interest......Plus, like I said above she really has little choice!

                      Unless, some think Russia is going to accept being a minor player on the World Stage. Which, is what she would become without a credible military.

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                      • XB-70
                        Rank 4 Registered User
                        • May 2018
                        • 366

                        So, I see it's prospects as very "grim"
                        Scooter - I see. Yet the FC-31 doesn't have a suitable engine. And, as far as anyone here knows, there is not one in development! So, considering the time involved in producing one, what are the FC-31's prospects if not "grim?" It's a dead end. The design was likely a useful technology demonstrator, and it may find some future export potential as a cheap fighter (assuming the Chinese can figure out how to make it cheap). But by the time an engine will come along which would allow the design to grow into an all aspect stealth aircraft it will be borderline obsolete.

                        There are only two viable foreign stealth fighter designs on a short time horizon. J-20 and Su-57.

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                        • Guest's Avatar
                          Guest

                          Originally posted by XB-70 View Post

                          Scooter - I see. Yet the FC-31 doesn't have a suitable engine. And, as far as anyone here knows, there is not one in development! So, considering the time involved in producing one, what are the FC-31's prospects if not "grim?" It's a dead end. The design was likely a useful technology demonstrator, and it may find some future export potential as a cheap fighter (assuming the Chinese can figure out how to make it cheap). But by the time an engine will come along which would allow the design to grow into an all aspect stealth aircraft it will be borderline obsolete.

                          There are only two viable foreign stealth fighter designs on a short time horizon. J-20 and Su-57.
                          Absurd............China is developing the WS-13 for the J-31 and last I heard it was progressing well. Yet, in the case of Russia they would likely use a version of their own "RD-93". Which, are already being used in the prototypes of the J-31. Which, means they already "fit".


                          As a matter of fact that in the beauty of the J-31 in the case of Russia adopting it. As it could easily use Russian Engines, Avionics, and Weapons. Which, they could sell to Russia Public as a co-developed Fighter with China. (save a little pride)


                          In addition it could be produce in far larger numbers than say the J-20. Which, is critical as Russia needs an affordable mid-sized Strike Fighter in the class of the F-35.



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                          • XB-70
                            Rank 4 Registered User
                            • May 2018
                            • 366

                            Absurd............China is developing the WS-13 for the J-31 and last I heard it was progressing well.
                            But it doesn't offer stealth. And, given that China is experiencing some hiccups with the Ws-15 - the real engine for their intended stealth platform - they are tied down on that and don't have the resources to undertake a major retrofit of the Ws-13 design. So that leaves the FC-31 with a great vulnerability/weakness from the rear which will not be mitigated for the foreseeable future.

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                            • Guest's Avatar
                              Guest

                              Originally posted by XB-70 View Post

                              But it doesn't offer stealth. And, given that China is experiencing some hiccups with the Ws-15 - the real engine for their intended stealth platform - they are tied down on that and don't have the resources to undertake a major retrofit of the Ws-13 design. So that leaves the FC-31 with a great vulnerability/weakness from the rear which will not be mitigated for the foreseeable future.
                              Laughable....As I said a "Russian J-31" would use the RD-93. Which, is very mature and more than adequate. As for Stealth I have no idea what you're talking about? As the J-31 should have a very respectable level of Stealth. (i.e. Low RCS) My guess is the J-31 has even better Stealth than the J-20 and markedly better than the Su-57.

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                              • XB-70
                                Rank 4 Registered User
                                • May 2018
                                • 366

                                As I said a "Russian J-31" would use the RD-93.
                                That doesn't afford stealth either. You seem to be intentionally avoiding this point. To build an all aspect stealth aircraft you have to design the entire exposed surface for it - including the exposed engine sections and the exhaust nozzle. Ws-13 and RD-93 are fine for a design intended for directional stealth. But that's it.

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                                • Guest's Avatar
                                  Guest

                                  Originally posted by XB-70 View Post

                                  That doesn't afford stealth either. You seem to be intentionally avoiding this point. To build an all aspect stealth aircraft you have to design the entire exposed surface for it - including the exposed engine sections and the exhaust nozzle. Ws-13 and RD-93 are fine for a design intended for directional stealth. But that's it.
                                  What are you talking about??? Are you saying the exhaust nozzles aren't stealthy???

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                                  • XB-70
                                    Rank 4 Registered User
                                    • May 2018
                                    • 366

                                    Are you saying the exhaust nozzles aren't stealthy???
                                    Yes. The ENTIRE exposed surface has to be designed for stealth. That's why 'little' things like scratched paint is actually a big problem with stealth aircraft.

                                    This is getting to be a heck of a tangent though and so I'm leaving here.

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                                    • Guest's Avatar
                                      Guest

                                      Originally posted by XB-70 View Post

                                      Yes. The ENTIRE exposed surface has to be designed for stealth. That's why 'little' things like scratched paint is actually a big problem with stealth aircraft.

                                      This is getting to be a heck of a tangent though and so I'm leaving here.
                                      Sorry, the J-20 and J-31 were designed to be all aspect stealth from the very beginning. So, have no idea what you're talking about.

                                      Plus, what is your alternative to the J-31 for Russia???

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                                      • blackwood
                                        Rank 5 Registered User
                                        • Dec 2011
                                        • 314

                                        Originally posted by Scooter View Post

                                        Sorry, the J-20 and J-31 were designed to be all aspect stealth from the very beginning. So, have no idea what you're talking about.

                                        Plus, what is your alternative to the J-31 for Russia???
                                        You hit the nail on the head, they dont need the J-31, alternative, dont neef it

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                                        • Austin
                                          Rank 5 Registered User
                                          • Oct 2003
                                          • 6512

                                          Originally posted by Scooter View Post

                                          Russia needs an affordable mid-sized Strike Fighter in the class of the F-35.
                                          For the next 2 decade the Su-30SM/Su-35 and Mig-35 should be fine along with steady flow of PAK-FA if one is looking for Multirole/Air Superiority fighter. For the mid size fighter if at all they need one they can opt of Hunter UCAV in 25 T class along with PAK-FA.

                                          LMFS or Mid Size fighter is not a priority for VKS as is the replacement of Mig-31 in PAK-DP program their priorities of VKS are different.
                                          "A map does you no good if you don't know where you are"

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