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RuAF News and development Thread part 15

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  • Trident
    Rank 5 Registered User
    • May 2004
    • 3965

    The 9M83 and 9M82 missiles are most certainly two-stage!
    sigpic

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    • Austin
      Rank 5 Registered User
      • Oct 2003
      • 6479

      Originally posted by Trident View Post
      The 9M83 and 9M82 missiles are most certainly two-stage!
      None of S-400 missile are two stage except for the rumoured 40N6 , I read the export model brochure of 40n6 and it did not mention twin stage.

      Twin stage missile have better fuel mass fraction than single stage also likely better ability to pull more G
      "A map does you no good if you don't know where you are"

      Comment

      • haavarla
        Rank 5 Registered User
        • Dec 2008
        • 6697

        Twin stage missile have better fuel mass fraction than single stage also likely better ability to pull more G
        There are Pros and Cons with singel stage vs twin stage rockets.
        The Twin stage Missile can only pull more G once the first stage is jettisoned.
        Twin stage Rocket have a higher cost. Its more complex. It takes more space/volume on the TEL's. Which means the TEL will have to get bigger and less mobile.. and/or ultimately you get fewer Rockets on each TEL.

        As always, there is no free lunch in this game.

        Edit:
        Personally i think Russia should just Merge the Vityaz with the S-400 concept already. Why not.. the S-400 can now launch what.. 4 different type of missiles.
        Why not just expand this to cover the
        9M96E2
        9M96E
        9M100
        Missiles as well.

        You just use a few more different TEL's cannister for the different sized of missile on the same trucks, hell you will get even a higher number of these missile on the S-400 TEL..
        see the 12 missile 50P6E transporter erector launcher for clues.
        One of the really smart deal with S-400 system is that its highly modular, so why the heck not make it even more modular. Like use the same Command post and Radar units with them all.
        Last edited by haavarla; 11th March 2018, 08:54.
        Thanks

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        • haavarla
          Rank 5 Registered User
          • Dec 2008
          • 6697

          MiG-31s future gets more interesting, that is for sure. Already was eagerly waiting on BM3....
          I find the thought of utilizing the Mig-31 for this role mind boggling.. Lol, now no one can slam the Foxhound for being a "useless" one deal dedicated cold war Interceptor anymore.

          They modernized the D30-F6 engine as well.
          Thanks

          Comment

          • Berkut
            Senior Member
            • Nov 2011
            • 2216

            I was talking about AKU's (or APU's, always mix them) on the belly for R-33's Haavarla. Pylons on the wings can easily be removed/attached so that doesnt mean much. Question is how much modification was needed for Kinzhal cradle.

            As to it looking more mature... yeah... The first footage was showing 592 which is a MiG owned testframe as i have said. So i was quite sceptical to Tsar Putin's claim Kinzhal was operational. These frames however are clearly operational ones.

            As to BM3 engines, it was suggested and winked something was done on that front, but i have seen no clear proof of that either way. So i will be sceptical until clearly proven otherwise - it hasnt happened imho.

            Also, god damn i f*cking love MiG-31's. The peak of Soviet aviation imho.

            EDIT; In the official MoD video there are slightly different shots and clearly show that the AKU's for R-33's are blanked over. So yeah, very specific frames modified for Kinzhal specifically;

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqfIZxu2urM

            EDIT2; Another BM3 frame:



            Could possibly be Kinzhal frame (in line with b/n 91 and 93 in the vids), but since it doesnt have the cradle and has the two pitot's under the nose, BM3 for now imho.
            Last edited by Berkut; 11th March 2018, 12:54.

            Comment

            • Marcellogo
              Rank 5 Registered User
              • Jun 2014
              • 1838

              Click image for larger version

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              The ones that published this on Twitter claim it use standard AKu-410 ejector rack.
              Can someone with better knowledge than mine confirm this?

              Comment

              • haavarla
                Rank 5 Registered User
                • Dec 2008
                • 6697

                Hey thx for the picture March.
                There is something wonky about those AKU used here on Kinzhal.

                The crew has his arm just in the way, but i would give a educated guess, it is some sort of tandem AKu's used there.

                @Berkut.
                Yes we can see the semi recessed positions R-33/37 on these pics. There seems to be no AKU there.
                But then again.. after a quick search on google pics, those AKu's are kind of hard to spot anyway.
                Last edited by haavarla; 11th March 2018, 19:02.
                Thanks

                Comment

                • stealthflanker
                  Rank 5 Registered User
                  • Sep 2015
                  • 1016

                  The Kinzhal's body basically occupy all 4 pylons from what i see. From the shape it looks like the twitter post is correct.

                  Click image for larger version

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                  • Trident
                    Rank 5 Registered User
                    • May 2004
                    • 3965

                    Originally posted by Austin View Post
                    None of S-400 missile are two stage except for the rumoured 40N6 , I read the export model brochure of 40n6 and it did not mention twin stage.
                    So? We were talking about S-300V.
                    sigpic

                    Comment

                    • haavarla
                      Rank 5 Registered User
                      • Dec 2008
                      • 6697

                      The Kinzhal's body basically occupy all 4 pylons from what i see. From the shape it looks like the twitter post is correct
                      If you mean to say it cannot carry both R-33/37 AND Kinzhal at the same time. Yes absolutly agree.

                      But we were talking about the way the Knzhal was mounted. It seems to be a completly separated AKu mount under there.
                      Thanks

                      Comment

                      • panzerfeist1
                        Rank 6 Registered User
                        • Feb 2018
                        • 399

                        So is it safe now to assume that if all specs are right for the Kinzhal missile it would be regarded as the greatest SEAD weapon as of now? There have been failed interception tests from the USN against MRBMs and recently a successful interception with a land based defense like the THAADs from a C-17 parachuting a MRBM. MRBMs in which I checked wiki fall in the mach 8-12 category if memory serves me right, this missile is possibly mach 10+. However since its air launched from a interceptor I find it safe to assume it has a lower RCS than a MRBM and it flies in unpredictable trajectories to throw off guidance systems trying to intercept it. Meanwhile the Mig-31 does not need any fancy stealth to get close to any defense system because of this missile's range.

                        Any agreement or disagreement that if specs are true this is regarded as the best SEAD weapon?
                        I thought the fall of western civilization was a tragedy, now I realize it's a comedy.

                        Comment

                        • haavarla
                          Rank 5 Registered User
                          • Dec 2008
                          • 6697

                          I don't see any need to talk about whos got the best toys.
                          It is safe to say, with a convent warhead, it will be a serious threat.

                          A down side is, it will be a very costly one. So costly it will most likely remain in small numbers and never be used in theater like Syria.. well other than perhaps some initial testing.
                          Thanks

                          Comment

                          • sepheronx
                            Senior Member
                            • Jun 2015
                            • 320

                            Originally posted by haavarla View Post
                            I don't see any need to talk about whos got the best toys.
                            It is safe to say, with a convent warhead, it will be a serious threat.

                            A down side is, it will be a very costly one. So costly it will most likely remain in small numbers and never be used in theater like Syria.. well other than perhaps some initial testing.
                            Another speculation? How much does this cost? Also, FYI, the next round of procurement is aimed at the weapons themselves, not just systems and emphasis is being placed on newer stuff.

                            Comment

                            • stealthflanker
                              Rank 5 Registered User
                              • Sep 2015
                              • 1016

                              If you mean to say it cannot carry both R-33/37 AND Kinzhal at the same time. Yes absolutly agree.

                              But we were talking about the way the Knzhal was mounted. It seems to be a completly separated AKu mount under there.
                              No it use the standard mount for R33/37. all four of them, the missile looks to have 4 attachment points.

                              Comment

                              • Berkut
                                Senior Member
                                • Nov 2011
                                • 2216

                                Sigh, i am not blind and would claim i have above average eye for detail Haavarla - i am well aware the front recesses are still there. Most of the other recesses, including the ones for AKU's, are blanked off;



                                Otherwise b/n 94 is confirmed to be blanked off in same fashion - meaning it is also a Kinzhal frame. Now the question is why doesnt 91 and 93 have the pitots and all the other BM3 frame do?

                                Comment

                                • stealthflanker
                                  Rank 5 Registered User
                                  • Sep 2015
                                  • 1016

                                  Aw i made mistake. Thanks for the image Berkut. So The Kinzhal does have its own kind of pylon.

                                  Comment

                                  • Austin
                                    Rank 5 Registered User
                                    • Oct 2003
                                    • 6479

                                    some new details on the new system in interview with Deputy Defense Minister Yuri BORISOV Interiew with Deputy Defence Minister Deputy Defense Minister Yuri BORISOV

                                    Many new details on the new system

                                    http://www.redstar.ru/index.php/comp...nzhal-avangard

                                    On Avantgrad Hypersonic Glide Vehical:


                                    There are so-called laws of Keppler, discovered in the XVI century. All the celestial bodies move along them, and, in fact, these laws are applicable to the description of the ballistic trajectory of the movement of missiles. That is, you can predict where the next moment will be the body moving along the ballistic trajectory. On this, in fact, built all the information tools that allow you to determine the distance to the target and its location at a certain point in time. The next mark from the target is predicted depending on the possible speed characteristics of this goal, which are also potentially known. After confirming its location in the predicted location, a chain of expected next marks is built. When the trajectory is actually known, it is possible to determine the launching point of the rocket and the point of its fall.

                                    With hypersonic objects, things are much more complicated because they move at speeds that are almost the same as ballistic targets, but they also maneuver both in height and course. Therefore, to predict the finding of this goal at the next moment of time is very difficult. All this makes the problem of detection, trajectory tying, detection of the meeting point and the defeat of the missile by anti-missile means an order of magnitude more complicated.

                                    The system "Avangard", about which the president spoke, is well tested. Not without difficulty, it was created, because the temperature on the surface of the combat unit reaches two thousand degrees. It really flies in the plasma. Therefore, the problem of managing this object and protection issues were very acute, but solutions were found. Practical tests of this system have confirmed the feasibility of the chosen approach. I will say more, we have a contract for the mass production of these systems. So this is no bluff, but real things.

                                    Dagger Hypersonic Air Launched Missile/Mig-31
                                    : The main first feature and complexity - it was necessary to reach the speeds of hypersonic, that is, about ten mach. This allows you to quickly approach the object, in contrast, say, from cruise missiles that fly at average cruising speeds of about 850-900 km / h. That is, the first feature is first of all speed.

                                    The second feature of the system is that it can maneuver during its flight with the help of aerodynamic steering wheels and bypass all dangerous zones. These are zones of anti-aircraft or anti-missile defense. As our Minister of Defense put it, an anti-missile umbrella becomes leaky in this situation. It is the possibility of maneuvering in hypersonic flight that makes it possible to ensure invulnerability of this product and guaranteed hit in the target.

                                    Here we have moved far enough, since December of last year the first products have been taken into experimental combat operation, they are already on duty. So this is far from fantastic. Moreover, it is a class of high-precision weapons that has a multi-functional warhead that allows to work both for stationary and moving targets. In particular, aircraft carriers and ships of the class of a cruiser, destroyer, frigate are potential targets for this weapon.

                                    Nuclear Cruise Missile/UUV
                                    :in order to bring the reactor of an atomic submarine to a given capacity, it takes several hours. And here it all happens in a matter of seconds. And the overall dimensions of this installation are such that they allow to really create a torpedo with quite acceptable overall and weight characteristics - they are the record, we can say. This is the uniqueness of the new weapon.

                                    The uniqueness of this rocket is that it may be slower than the hypersonic "Dagger", but it flies along a given trajectory, skirting the folds of the terrain at a low altitude, which makes it difficult to detect it. Practically it can be found on the very approach to the goal, and the possibilities of its maneuver make the cruise missile also invulnerable. She can carry cargo at any distance. Day can fly. This is another of its uniqueness.

                                    laser weapons : Since last year, laser systems have been put into service, which make it possible to disarm a potential enemy and to hit all those objects that serve as the target for the laser beam of this system.

                                    Our nuclear scientists learned how to concentrate the energy necessary to defeat the corresponding weapons of the enemy in practically a few moments, in a matter of a fraction of a second. I think that the dynamics of achievements, especially in the field of weapons on new physical principles, gained corresponding rates.
                                    Last edited by Austin; 12th March 2018, 09:56.
                                    "A map does you no good if you don't know where you are"

                                    Comment

                                    • Marcellogo
                                      Rank 5 Registered User
                                      • Jun 2014
                                      • 1838

                                      So the main question would remain the necessity or not of a specific MiG-31 version to use such a weapon.
                                      One thing is the possibility of use it on already existing or just minimally modified planes, as you get about 100 carrier vehicles in a short span of time.
                                      Having instead to introduce an ad hoc version just for this role, without the possibility to install the usual A2A load as an alternative, would be just another matter, in terms of both cost and efficacy.

                                      Comment

                                      • maurobaggio
                                        Rank 5 Registered User
                                        • Jul 2008
                                        • 521

                                        Perhaps such possibility for the AKU support from R-33 missiles should have been removed for installation of the Kh-47M2 (Kinzhal) missile in the MiG-31BM has occurred to prevent these same AKU support could damaged the Kh-47M2 missiles, once due to a malfunction (electric, electronic or hydraulic) of the AKU supports these could have been activated either in flight or in the ground and hit the Kh-47M2 missiles in the central pylon, then to damage or even disconnect the missile from aircraft in flight or on ground.

                                        Anyway, in my humble opinion I do not think that this removal of the AKUs from R-33 missiles has been definitive removed in reason of the Kh-47M2, so those same AKU supports could have been reinstalled in the MiG-31BM in the own air base for air defense missions , even though these MiG-31BMs has been especially modified to receive the Kh-47M2.

                                        About the removal of the two pitot tubes of the MiG-31BM with the Kh-47M2, I think it was about time for the MiG-31 to shave itself, after all there are several pitot tubes in the MiG-31, however such possibility should be that: those two pitot tubes could have been creating little tiny turbulence during the launch( may be Mach 2) of the Kh-47M2 missiles, in reason of that could create at least such small misalignment for the missile. In fact the R-33s itself has been equipped with it AKU hydraulic support to move the R-33 of the air-frame from MiG-31 during the launch process, while the Kh- 47M2 does not have this feature.

                                        These are just opinions from someone who would take an entire lifetime to notice that the two pitot tubes has been removed from the MiG-31BM with Kh-47M2 missile, in the first place.

                                        Comment

                                        • Peregrinefalcon
                                          Rank 5 Registered User
                                          • Jul 2012
                                          • 435



                                          Here is more detailed talk from Putin about new weapons, it is fun to watch
                                          There are subtitles for ones that don't understand russian.

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