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  • FBW
    FBW
    Rank 5 Registered User
    • Dec 2011
    • 3295

    A 10 Mach weapon that doesn't fly at standard BM flight path, is somehow easy to intercept? What?
    Easy? no. But considering the current focus on BMD capability in Western Navies, it presents less of a threat than a cruise missile with high mach capability at sea level or a hypersonic air breather.

    A missile launched on a ballistic flight path with a 2000 km range allows for detection at significant range (even if detected halfway through flight that allows roughly five minutes to deploy countermeasures and engage when warhead gets within range).

    From the looks of the current missile, I would temper expectation on maneuverability in endgame. The Pershing II's MaRV exhibited a pull up maneuver that subjected the system to 25g due to high mach at terminal phase.

    Yes, likely the Kinzhal (being derived from the Iskander- armed with a MaRV) performs a similar maneuver to locate it's target. It certainly complicates intercept geometry, but it's not like the Missile is performing sharp zig zags at mach 10 to avoid missile defenses.
    ballistic path like the DF missiles
    -For the majority of flight, it very likely does at maximum range. The DF-21D also has maneuverable reentry vehicle, and I doubt you could reliably say that of the Kinzhal is more maneuverable than that of the Chinese ASBM (and they are working on HGV for their missiles).
    Last edited by FBW; 6th March 2018, 18:40.

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    • bring_it_on
      2005-year of the RAPTOR!!
      • Jun 2004
      • 12480

      Do keep in mind that long range Anti Ship tactical Ballistic missile for Russia would have to have been air-launched as long as they are interested in staying INF compliant. This is the same issue with the US which can only field a Conventional Boost Glide system (Intermediate/Theater ranges) from its Bombers or Navy's VL System.
      Old radar types never die; they just phased array

      Comment

      • sepheronx
        Senior Member
        • Jun 2015
        • 320

        Originally posted by FBW View Post
        Easy? no. But considering the current focus on BMD capability in Western Navies, it presents less of a threat than a cruise missile with high mach capability at sea level or a hypersonic air breather.

        A missile launched on a ballistic flight path with a 2000 km range allows for detection at significant range (even if detected halfway through flight that allows roughly five minutes to deploy countermeasures and engage when warhead gets within range).

        From the looks of the current missile, I would temper expectation on maneuverability in endgame. The Pershing II's MaRV exhibited a pull up maneuver that subjected the system to 25g due to high mach at terminal phase.

        Yes, likely the Kinzhal (being derived from the Iskander- armed with a MaRV) performs a similar maneuver to locate it's target. It certainly complicates intercept geometry, but it's not like the Missile is performing sharp zig zags at mach 10 to avoid missile defenses.
        -For the majority of flight, it very likely does at maximum range. The DF-21D also has maneuverable reentry vehicle, and I doubt you could reliably say that of the Kinzhal is more maneuverable than that of the Chinese ASBM (and they are working on HGV for their missiles).
        So has Russia through project 4202. What's your point? To assume something? Acronym for assume is making an ass of you and me.

        Maybe we need to look at facts and what was brought up rather than speculations, right?

        Wait, I should know better as I know whom I am talking to.

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        • FBW
          FBW
          Rank 5 Registered User
          • Dec 2011
          • 3295

          Wait, I should know better as I know whom I am talking to.
          As do I. And I believe you were speculating on how the DF-21D isn't comparable to the Kinzhal as far as RV maneuverability.
          But of course, that's China not RUSSIA. Right? Odd that they seem to have by far the most hypersonic wind tunnels.

          So has Russia through project 4202
          Wonderful, and when are they fitting that to the Kinzhal to make that point relevant to the conversation? Everyone is working on HGV, not the point myself or anyone was making. The difference, which is why I pointed it out, is that China is currently planning on fitting their ASBM with HGV.
          Last edited by FBW; 6th March 2018, 19:02.

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          • sepheronx
            Senior Member
            • Jun 2015
            • 320

            So care to provide the evidence then DF-21 has hypersonic glide and doesn't fly ballistic trajectory? You are the one saying that it may be comparable to the Khinzal, when I figure it sure isn't.

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            • FBW
              FBW
              Rank 5 Registered User
              • Dec 2011
              • 3295

              Originally posted by sepheronx View Post
              So care to provide the evidence then DF-21 has hypersonic glide and doesn't fly ballistic trajectory? You are the one saying that it may be comparable to the Khinzal, when I figure it sure isn't.
              Khinzal does not have a HGV payload. Whatever gave you the idea it does? DF-21 is the same for now, but the Chinese have tested their HGV and plan on arming their New ASBM with them (maybe even retrofitting the DF-21D) No mention of that on the current Khinzal.

              Good lord man, look at the shaping of the front, its shaped that way for a reason (just like on parent Iskander, or Pershing). That is a maneuverable reetry warhead, not the same.
              Last edited by FBW; 6th March 2018, 22:37.

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              • Marcellogo
                Rank 5 Registered User
                • Jun 2014
                • 1829

                Given that the weapon in question was presented just five days ago I think that is too early to pretend to know how exactly it work and what tprocedure and tactics it will use.
                For what we surely know:
                it's a derivate of Iskander but sport more than a difference from it, allegedly also in the overall dimensions.
                Has both radar than IR terminal guidance
                Trajectory is mainly ballistic but can maneuver.
                It was tested on a specially modified Mig-31, so even if presented as in service and ready for production it actually lack a suitable carrier.
                So, maybe it's not the wunderwaffe that they advertise it to be but surely it's a weapon of very high performances and lethality developed by an already existing item, so surely it was a smart move to get it, given that they have not renounced to any of their other project of advanced antiship missiles for it

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                • FBW
                  FBW
                  Rank 5 Registered User
                  • Dec 2011
                  • 3295

                  iven that the weapon in question was presented just five days ago I think that is too early to pretend to know how exactly it work and what tprocedure and tactics it will use.
                  @Marcellogo -no it's impossible to know the exact characteristics, but you can get rough idea of what it is and what the weapon isn't. Certainly a economic use of existing technology to add another threat dimension to Russia's impressive Anti-Ship capability, that is undeniable.

                  @sepheronx- It is an unfortunate common occurrence on here that when someone disagrees, they claim the other person has no idea what they are talking about (usually followed by childish insults). Now I am no expert on ballistic missiles, nor in any particular defense field (though in my profession I do read up on the latest research as both a hobby and because I use it from time to time).

                  Now, to get to the point.... If you are going to call out someone and say something stupid like "prove the kinzhal isn't carrying a hypersonic glide vehicle" I would suggest that you do two minutes of requisite reading before committing fingers to keypad. So:
                  If you've ever noticed, most ICBM and SLBM have a relatively blunt shroud even before introduction of MIRV. They actually dissipate heat better and slow reentry for the higher trajectory of those missiles, not to mention the added volume (Minuteman is an interesting deviation for detection reasons). The Pershing II and Iskander do not (the Iskander has a relatively flat trajectory), they have a rather sharp pointed nose . They don't have the same thermal stresses, don't carry MIRV. You are looking at the Re-entry vehicle on the front of the missile. Yes, they are capable of maneuvering (and they are shaped accordingly) to both evade defenses and locate their target. Now look up the shape and design of a hypersonic glide vehicle (arrow shaped to not only perform a pull up maneuver, but glide a considerable distance at high speed with controllability). So, looking at the current weapon Kh-47M2 as depicted, how are am I sure it does not contain said HGV? Because it would have a large blunt shroud with sufficient volume to contain the vehicle and not the current MaRV. Maybe Russia is working on one for it, and we will know if they fit it because the missile will have a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT SHAPE in front.
                  Last edited by FBW; 7th March 2018, 00:27.

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                  • Austin
                    Rank 5 Registered User
                    • Oct 2003
                    • 6463

                    I would says Kh-47M2 is a hypersonic missile with manouverable quasi ballistic trajectory and not a True HGV , The only HGV that was presented was Avangrad that is part of Pr 4202.

                    HGV travel at hypersonic speed ( Mach 20+ in case of Avangrad ) near/below the karman line at long ranges ( intercontinental in case of Avangrad ) , having good manouveribility ( altitude and lateral ) and travelling literally in a bubble of Plasma , the latter would prevent it from communicating in any way for outside guidance and need high precision INS , plasma would also prevent effective tracking by ABM radar.

                    The only down side I see of HGV is for those long glide ranges it cant carry Decoys/Jammers unlike a ballistic missile that would deploy one during its midcourse and re-entry , there is a trade off for each design.
                    "A map does you no good if you don't know where you are"

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                    • TR1
                      TR1
                      http://tiny.cc/tp8kd
                      • Oct 2010
                      • 9808

                      RIP, worst day for the Russian mission in Syria yet .

                      Are those Mi-28's still using Tor as their optics ?
                      Yes, almost certainly, though I am unsure if the internals are identical.

                      Mi-28NM will finally have a modern replacement. We should see some good pics of it this year.
                      Last edited by TR1; 7th March 2018, 04:23.
                      sigpic

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                      • sepheronx
                        Senior Member
                        • Jun 2015
                        • 320

                        Originally posted by FBW View Post
                        Khinzal does not have a HGV payload. Whatever gave you the idea it does? DF-21 is the same for now, but the Chinese have tested their HGV and plan on arming their New ASBM with them (maybe even retrofitting the DF-21D) No mention of that on the current Khinzal.

                        Good lord man, look at the shaping of the front, it’s shaped that way for a reason (just like on parent Iskander, or Pershing). That is a maneuverable reetry warhead, not the same.
                        I never said it does. You said it has similar characteristics then you went on about how China has invested in HGV's when I said their system wouldn't be similar to Kinzhal, and I mentioned that and I quote: "So has Russia through project 4202. What's your point? "

                        You are the one adding things in that makes no point to the discussion. I think you need to go back and read what has been said.

                        Nowhere did I say that Kinzhal is a HGV. Actually, you were the one to point out HGV's here when no one else did in regards to DF-21. I simply mentioned its a hypersonic weapon which it is at Mach 10 and doesnt fly at standard ballistic trajectory. So you can read up all the stuff you want. doesnt mean you seem to grasp what is being said, judging by how you seem to be making stuff up regarding what I said. Otherwise, quote me were I said Kinzhal is a HGV. You said it flies at a ballistic path, I said it doesnt, cause it flies at a quasi ballistic path, indicated by the video presented by Russia.

                        here is what you said:

                        -For the majority of flight, it very likely does at maximum range. The DF-21D also has maneuverable reentry vehicle, and I doubt you could reliably say that of the Kinzhal is more maneuverable than that of the Chinese ASBM (and they are working on HGV for their missiles).
                        Here is what I said:

                        So has Russia through project 4202. What's your point?
                        and

                        So care to provide the evidence then DF-21 has hypersonic glide and doesn't fly ballistic trajectory? You are the one saying that it may be comparable to the Khinzal, when I figure it sure isn't.
                        Funny I don't see where I even said that Khinzal is HGV (although, I can see how you may insinuate that I did). You were the one mentioning it and how it maneuvers the same as Khinzal and mentioned HGV's. Please, I wish to know, where is your source for DF-21 having the same maneuvering as Khinzal? We know about Khinzal, but what about DF-21? Must be common knowledge for some expert like yourself by now. Yeah, DF-21 may not have HGV's. It may not be very maneuverable either. You are the one claiming it would be just as maneuverable.

                        Before you quote me and add in things I never said, admit that you actually made it up of what I was saying in the first place. Thank you.

                        Given that the weapon in question was presented just five days ago I think that is too early to pretend to know how exactly it work and what tprocedure and tactics it will use.
                        For what we surely know:
                        it's a derivate of Iskander but sport more than a difference from it, allegedly also in the overall dimensions.
                        Has both radar than IR terminal guidance
                        Trajectory is mainly ballistic but can maneuver.
                        It was tested on a specially modified Mig-31, so even if presented as in service and ready for production it actually lack a suitable carrier.
                        So, maybe it's not the wunderwaffe that they advertise it to be but surely it's a weapon of very high performances and lethality developed by an already existing item, so surely it was a smart move to get it, given that they have not renounced to any of their other project of advanced antiship missiles for it
                        Was it a modified MiG-31? Sorry, but I find it hard to pinpoint what was different of said MiG-31 from the video. Care to share?
                        Last edited by sepheronx; 7th March 2018, 07:12.

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                        • bring_it_on
                          2005-year of the RAPTOR!!
                          • Jun 2004
                          • 12480

                          I would says Kh-47M2 is a hypersonic missile with manouverable quasi ballistic trajectory and not a True HGV , The only HGV that was presented was Avangrad that is part of Pr 4202.
                          Very similar to the DF-21D which, depending on whose's analysis you look at, has better performance than the Pershing II as far Gs is concerned (ranging from slightly better to considerably better).

                          MGM-31 - Air Launch (not the II)

                          Last edited by bring_it_on; 7th March 2018, 17:17.
                          Old radar types never die; they just phased array

                          Comment

                          • sepheronx
                            Senior Member
                            • Jun 2015
                            • 320

                            As a note, an Mi-8 flipped in Chechnya and 3 people had perished. Rip to the dead.

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                            • haavarla
                              Rank 5 Registered User
                              • Dec 2008
                              • 6668

                              Was it a modified MiG-31? Sorry, but I find it hard to pinpoint what was different of said MiG-31 from the video. Care to share?
                              Ofcourse its a modification on Said Mig-31.
                              How else would it be able to mount a Slinger twice the weight of a Brahmos..
                              Thanks

                              Comment

                              • sepheronx
                                Senior Member
                                • Jun 2015
                                • 320

                                So we are assuming again.

                                Thanks

                                Comment

                                • Berkut
                                  Senior Member
                                  • Nov 2011
                                  • 2216

                                  592 is a known prototype frame owned by MiG used for testing.

                                  Comment

                                  • sepheronx
                                    Senior Member
                                    • Jun 2015
                                    • 320

                                    Originally posted by Berkut View Post
                                    592 is a known prototype frame owned by MiG used for testing.
                                    Thanks.

                                    Do we know for sure optronics for Mi-28MN will be different than before?

                                    Comment

                                    • mfranjic
                                      Rank 0+ Registered User
                                      • Feb 2017
                                      • 39



                                      In the recent days, we have heard a lot about new types of tactical and very powerful weapons Russia represents to the world sending clear message that they are not able only of catching a step but to be a one or two ahead. One of those systems is "Kinzhal" ("Кинжал") ...


                                      The video begins with the frames of take-off of the interceptor MiG-31DZ (изд. 01ДЗ). Already during the takeoff it is clear that under the bottom of its fuselage is suspended not the familiar and standard ammunition, but some kind of new weapon. The interceptor raises into the air a large and massive rocket of a new type. Part of the further flight with the exit to the launch point, however, was shown using simplified computer graphics. But then again there was a video recording of real tests with a real launch of the rocket.


                                      There are several facts about the "Kinzhal" ("Кинжал") that can be learned from the video. The launch platform appears to be the MiG-31DZ (изд. 01ДЗ), Борт № синий 592, Заводской № 5902, Серийный № 38400160189, airframe to have been outfitted with an inflight refueling system, which passed trials in the late 1980s for subsequent adaptation onto the MiG-31B production standard in 1990. Apparently, this particular airframe, later underwent considerable modification to its central fuselage section to install a single hardpoint instead of the four standard launchers for R-33 490 kg air-to-air missiles.


                                      Today, the MiG-31BM (тип 28/тип 78) / MiG-31BSM (тип 58) is one of the most versatile interceptor fighter in the world. It was designed to detect and destroy the enemy at maximum altitudes under any conditions. The work on the MiG-31BM began in 1997. The aircraft was equipped with an armament management system, modernized with the use of a technical reserve, obtained during the work on the creation of an armament control system, "Zaslon-M" (СУВ "Заслон-М"). The first public display of the MiG-31BM took place on 12. Jan 1999, simultaneously with the demonstration of the prototype fighter of the 5th generation МиГ 1.44 МФИ.

                                      The MiG-31BM is capable of simultaneously supporting up to 10 air targets, six of which can be simultaneously fired with R-33S or R-37 missiles. The MiG-31BM is also capable of carrying up to 4 RVV-AE missiles (R-77) on underwing pylons. In the assortment of weapons to defeat low-speed air targets two R-40TD are kept. The aircraft's range includes anti-radar missiles Kh-31P, Kh-25MP or Kh-25MPU (up to six units), anti-ship missiles Kh-31A (up to six), air-to-surface missiles Kh-59 and Kh-29T (three) or Kh-59M (up to two), up to six corrected aerial bombs KAB-1500 or up to eight KAB-500 with television or laser guidance. The maximum mass of the combat load is 9.000 kg.


                                      Initially, the interceptor MiG-31BM could hit targets in daytime. Gradually the navigation equipment was improved. Later on it was decided to introduce new electronic tracking devices into the software package of the aircraft. Thanks to this, the combat capabilities of the fighter expanded. So on board was a radar with a phased antenna. The aircraft was built according to the "tandem" scheme, that is, the crew was supposed to accommodate two members. The pilot was assigned the functions of piloting, and on the navigator - the processing of operational data. The MiG-31BM have a number of important distinctive features from the original MiG-31. First of all, this concerns the airborne radar complex. In addition, the distinctive features of the series can include a modernized laser guidance system. For the comfort of the crew, a special layout of the cabs was developed. Now the pilot has the opportunity to receive timely information about tactical training. Previously, the commander could not know what his navigator was doing. To monitor the situation, the pilot's cabin is equipped with a multi-function indicator with a diagonal of 10 in / 25,4 cm. The navigator, in turn, was able to display radar information on the screen.

                                      The MiG-31BM glider was developed on the basis of the MiG-25. During the design, special attention was paid to the hull, which is capable of withstanding the lifting load by 25% more than previous versions. The shell consists of 50% of steel, 33% of a high-strength aluminum alloy and 13% of titanium. The aircraft MiG-31BM is powered by two D-30F-6 (изд. 48), twin-shaft, afterburning, low-bypass turbofans (fan diameter: 1.020,0 mm / 40,2 in; BPR: 0,57:1; engine architecture: 5F–10HPC2HPT–2LPT), OPR: 21,15:1, each rated at 93,20 kN / 9.500 kgf / 20.945 lbf dry and 152,05 kN / 15.500 kgf / 34.172 lbf with the afterburner...


                                      ... being on the set course and maintaining a certain height and speed, the carrier dropped the "Kinzhal" ("Кинжал") missile. In free flight, it "fell through" in height, then dropped the tail fairing and launched a marching engine. The flight of the rocket again did not begin to be shown in the form of documentary frames and depicted schematically. In the next episode, the computer model of the plane dropped an animated rocket, and that on a ballistic trajectory headed toward the ship of the conventional enemy. It is worth noting that the painted target ship had a recognizable appearance and looked like some real pattern.


                                      The "Kinzhal" ("Кинжал") weapon drops away from the MiG-31BM. After a release an aerodynamic fairing covering the missile's exhaust is jettisoned before the motor fires.


                                      The last stages of the flight of the X-47M2 rocket, which goes to the target area, and then is pushed onto it, were shown using graphics. And the "camera" this time was directly on board the rocket. The product went to the enemy ship, went into a dive, and then the video signal, expectedly, disappeared. However, the video showed the defeat of the goal, although different. The munitions fell on the overland fortification and blew it up. The MiG-31BM carrier aircraft, in turn, returned to the airfield and landed.


                                      The missile shown in the video appears to be about 26 ft / 8 m long, with a central body diameter of around 3,3 ft / 1 m. The span between its stubby wings is around 6,6 ft / 2 m. The shape and dimensions have led some experts to believe that this missile might represent an air-launched version of the 9M723, which was accepted into service in 2004 and is employed by the Iskander-M (NATO: SS-26 "Stone") tactical strike system that is normally mounted on a wheeled chassis. The 9M723 weighs 3.800 kg / 8.380 lb, has a length of 7,2 m / 23.6 ft and a maximum diameter of 0.92 m / 3 ft. It carries a 480 kg / 1.058 lb warhead over a maximum distance of 500 km / 270 nm. Terminal guidance is provided by the 9E436 optics correlator or 9B318 active radar head. Its maximum speed at the top of a typical fight trajectory is given as 2.100 m/s, which is seven times the speed of sound.


                                      While the air-launched missile appears to be of similar length (after its protective tail cone comes off shortly after release from the launching platform), its body is a bit wider. It is believed that the air-launched weapon is likely to have a booster and a detachable self-propelled projectile instead of the single-stage configuration for the 9M723.


                                      The "Kinzhal" ("Кинжал") comes as an addition to the hypersonic strike weapons revealed earlier; the 3M22 "Tsirkon" (3М22 "Циркон") and the Kh-32 (Х-32). There are some distinct differences between them. The 3M22 "Tsirkon", which seems to have provided the basis for the Indo-Russian BrahMos II exportable version, represents an air-breathing projectile with large air intake(s) for its scramjet propulsion. Intended primarily for naval platforms, it may also be carried by strategic bombers. The latter also serve as launch platforms for the 6.000 kg Kh-32, which is a reworked Kh-22 Burya missile with a dual-mode engine running on liquid fuel...

                                      I believe there is an excellent reason why was MiG-31BM aircraft chosen for this trial launch. The speed and the height from which the aircraft is capable of launching this rocket was probably crucial in the choice of this aircraft, before aircraft Su-34 or Su-35. This is just another proof of how many RuAF seriously count on this aircraft in the future.

                                      ....Mario

                                      Last edited by mfranjic; 14th March 2018, 14:49.
                                      'Only a life lived for others is a life worthwhile' - Albert Einstein

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                                      • panzerfeist1
                                        Rank 6 Registered User
                                        • Feb 2018
                                        • 351

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                                        I do know that the highest they have tested the Zircon was at mach 8, http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone...listic-missile Commander in chief Sergei says, "The Kinzhal system substantially boosts the capabilities of the Russian Aerospace Force to respond to any possible act of aggression against our country and along with other strategic weapon systems will help deter possible adversaries from rushing headlong into action... The fast-speed fixed-wing carrier allows delivering a missile with unique performance characteristics to the area of its discharge within minutes. The main propulsion unit mounted on the aero-ballistic missile accelerates a warhead to hypersonic speed within seconds. The missiles maneuvering at speeds exceeding the speed of sound by several times allows it to reliably breach all air defense and anti-ballistic missile defense systems that exist or are being developed."
                                        So it could be mach 7. In regards to unlimited range and talks of their missiles using nuclear propulsion. Wouldn't the correct term be called ion propulsion? I heard there Mars mission they will use a nuclear reactor for ion propulsion. Is this basically what they mean? I believe their drone torpedo is called the status-6.
                                        Last edited by panzerfeist1; 8th March 2018, 02:00.
                                        I thought the fall of western civilization was a tragedy, now I realize it's a comedy.

                                        Comment

                                        • stealthflanker
                                          Rank 5 Registered User
                                          • Sep 2015
                                          • 1009

                                          Ion propulsion is suitable for long term space mission but not in atmospheric use as it generate very little amount of thrust.

                                          The Nuclear cruise missile is likely using Jet, closed cycle with some sort of state of the art reactor and heat exchanger.

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