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RuAF News and development Thread part 15

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  • bring_it_on
    2005-year of the RAPTOR!!
    • Jun 2004
    • 12480

    I think the point is that future iterations of the system could feature a boost glide system upfront like what DARPA is doing with the TBG. Such a thing will add target ambiguity if it is used against a land based target in a tactical sense given how much time the HGV will spend inside the atmosphere. But it is obviously a much harder, and more expensive problem to solve while sticking to the tactical air-launched requirements. You can still effectively defend against them but you will need quite a significant investment in sensors and shooters -(Think of systems like NASAMS (point defense) which can deal with MRBM class weapons..). Similarly, when launched against a sea based target, a TBG like system would introduce vectors and challenges not currently out there.

    From what I can make out, this, as things stand, appears to be an ALBM like a modern day tactical GAM-87.

    https://www.nextbigfuture.com/wp-con...430.png?x71037
    Last edited by bring_it_on; 5th March 2018, 16:58.
    Old radar types never die; they just phased array

    Comment

    • FBW
      FBW
      Rank 5 Registered User
      • Dec 2011
      • 3285

      I think the point is that future iterations of the system could feature a boost glide system upfront like what DARPA is doing with the TBG. Such a thing will add target ambiguity if it is used against a land based target in a tactical sense given how much time the HBGV will spend inside the atmosphere.
      Yes, DARPA's TBG would appear to be a very different weapon from what the Kinzhal video depicted. The Iskander (which the Kh-47M2, looks like and is stated to be derived from) is rumored to be equipped with a MaRV warhead. If the Kh-47M2 is, in essence, an Iskander modified for aircraft use, it would present a threat similar to the DF-21D. That is not exactly the same capabilities as attributed to the Kh-47M2 Kinzal from description and video. Perhaps something lost in translation.

      Comment

      • bring_it_on
        2005-year of the RAPTOR!!
        • Jun 2004
        • 12480

        it would present a threat similar to the DF-21D
        No the threat would be slightly different in that it would negate the advantage of forward deployed ballistic missile defense sensors (until they are improved and upgraded). An Air launched short or medium ranged ballistic missile would allow the carrier aircraft to launch the weapon from outside coverage of these sectors which would be difficult using a land based option without incresing the range, size and cost of the weapon. It would add a slightly different set of challenges on the sensor coverage side but besides that the intercept dynamics would still be largely similar and commensurate with intercepting a ground launched missile of similar performance.
        Last edited by bring_it_on; 5th March 2018, 16:05.
        Old radar types never die; they just phased array

        Comment

        • Trident
          Rank 5 Registered User
          • May 2004
          • 3960

          Originally posted by FBW View Post
          I fail to see how the Kinzhal is a game changer.
          Generally agree. The lack of efficient airbreathing propulsion is conveniently lost on the so-called "Russia-stronkists", of course - it is hypersonic after all As discussed earlier, it can be seen as a re-introduction of a capability similar to that retired with the Kh-15 a few years ago and possibly a replacement for the K-22.

          Is it a threat? Yes, for the reasons bring_it_on states and which made Kh-15/22 dangerous. Is it a game-changer? Not really.
          sigpic

          Comment

          • haavarla
            Rank 5 Registered User
            • Dec 2008
            • 6646

            Game changer or not.
            It will change something. As the Huge Interceptor Foxhound all of a sudden being warped into a Stand-off Ground slinger. How cool is that!

            Another fact is, Kinzhal is most likely a very cheap way to add capability. After all it is based on Its land based bretheren, Iskander-M.

            All in all, not bad.
            How large would a convential warhead look like on this thing?
            Thanks

            Comment

            • maurobaggio
              Rank 5 Registered User
              • Jul 2008
              • 521

              Thank you Austin for bringing this article about the X-47M2( Kh-47M2?), as wells as the good posts above at all, in special those from Bring It On.

              The designation X-47M2 itself has been already a mystery, after all the suffix M in Russia could have been associated with a modernized version, whereas the number 2 after the suffix M would indicate this is a third version of the X-47 that has been currently tested with MiG-31BM. So the X-47 program could have been going on for several years until getting light.

              While observing the video of the X-47M2 test, this show such lay out similar to the TBM( Tactical Ballistic Missile) Isklander, and this last one slight resemblance the tactical ballistic missile MGM-31 Pershing II from US, which was withdrawn from service due to agreements, but Pershing II has two stages, while in the video the X-47M2 at the time of impact seems to have a single stage.

              In the text of the article the speed of Mach 10 are mentioned for the ammunition, perhaps this could indicate that the missile X-47M2 would be equipped with single stage rocket , however after exhausting its motor rocket at the apex of its trajectory the warhead and the target seeker will separate from the body of the missile and would be controlled by exhaust vanes instead fins, just like the ICBM with MIRV, after all the max range from X-47M2 has been described as 2,000 Km(1080 NM).

              Indeed the Iskander has been equipped with MaRV( Maneuverability Rentry Vehicle) in the Russian version, that MaRV should increase the maneuverability against ABM( Anti Ballistic Missile) defense system as well as decreasing the RCS( Radar Cross Section) and Thermal signature, and increasing the range as well as the accuracy from Iskander .

              In any way in the video the X-47M2 missile has hit the target integrally, may be the export version from Iskander has not been equipped with MaVR, may be in reason of restrict range for export versions about of 280Km( 151 NM), while in the Russian version from Iskander the max range could reach 700 Km( 378 NM).

              In fact the idea about ​​integrating missile ballistic missile whit fighters are very old, in the former Soviet Union there were an ballistic missile has been designed for the MiG-25RB that were not implemented, just like the MiG-31D that has been created for carrying ASAT missile(Ant Satellite) with construction of 02 prototypes during the 80's .

              During the 1990s, however, there were many references about: anti-radar, anti-aircraft and anti-ship versions of the Kh-15 (AS-16) missiles, but only versions equipped with nuclear warheads and inertial navigation had been entered in service on the late 1980s , and it has been removed from active for some time.

              Despite much speculation that Kh-15s would equip the Su-34s, in fact the Kh-15s had been equipped only strategic and long-range aircraft until it were withdrawal from service with: Tu-95MS, Tu-160 and Tu-22M3.

              There are wide differences between Kh-15 and X-47M2 so far, after all the Kh-15 had been described with range of 300Km(161NM) and maximum speed of Mach 5, whereas the X-47M2 would have a reach of 2,000 km( 1080NM) and maximum speed before the rocket burn out in the apogee of this ballistic trajectory of Mach 10 , while it has been launched by the MiG-31BM, in addition to the maneuverability.

              In my humble opinion I guess that t X-47M2 would have the SEAD (Suppression Enemy Air Defenses) mission against ABM and long range SAM systems, both ground and maritime.
              In the maritime aspect the X-47M2 would have not been capable to sink a cruiser or destroyer, but incapacitate through hitting the radar antennas or air-to-air missiles silos with an active radar capable of mapping the ship before impact, the other possibility about the 'light' X-47M2 could have been used to saturate the air defenses, them to allow that heavy anti ship missiles: P-700, Kh-32, Onyx and Kh-41 to hit the targets, in the future the new hypersonic missile Zircon.

              I have several doubts , the main so far should be: if the X-47M2 could have been capable with anti-AWACS function as it were proposed in the past for the Kh-15, after all the maneuverability of the X-47M2 could be more than enough to reach AWACS aircraft's, and certainly several time better than Kh-15(AS-16).
              Last edited by maurobaggio; 5th March 2018, 22:33.

              Comment

              • MSphere
                Senior Member
                • Feb 2010
                • 8983

                According to British intelligence, the warhead is 800kg..

                Comment

                • Austin
                  Rank 5 Registered User
                  • Oct 2003
                  • 6463

                  X-47M2 from the video the small booster is just there to impart spin to the missile , It appears the missile spins for stability reason as it has no control surface barring a small rear end fins and since it travels at mach 10 plus the body would heat up so spinning would evenly distribute the heat across the body evenly. It would need new composite matrials too as ISkander speed did not exceed Mach 6 , Mach 10 plus would need materials similar to IRBM RV

                  Compared to iskander system the only thing common is the broader design it has a design of a typical RV that generates more lift while it is in a quasi-ballistic stage of flight , other than that it wont exceed weight of more than 2.5-2.8 tons since the central pylon will have its own weight limitation for Mig-31 ( MKI cant carry more than 2.5 T on its central pylon ) and the speed increase from Mach 5-6 to more than Mach 10 means it would have newer high energetic high density solid fuel.

                  The CGI video shows post launch it flies high likely 40-45 Km during cruise phase and then drops height and manouveres to the target even at low level .... likely it has different trajectory top attack is what we saw of real test and then cruise low and maneuver and dive against ship target is what the CGI showed.

                  May be a plasma is generated while it flies mach 10 plus would would make it RF opaque so would need accurate INS for guidance , for self defence it would likely have a jammer like Kh-101 and changing Height and lateral movement for self defence against AD missile

                  At the least this should be the next interation from X-32M and certainly they would be carried beyond Mig-31 , likely Tu-22M3M and Su-34 the range of 2000 plus km is phenomenal but even using it at 1000 km range aginst moving targets and it can trade off its excess energy with shaped trajectory and agianst stationary target it can use the full range
                  Last edited by Austin; 6th March 2018, 04:59.
                  "A map does you no good if you don't know where you are"

                  Comment

                  • Austin
                    Rank 5 Registered User
                    • Oct 2003
                    • 6463

                    More details from Vladimir Karnozov

                    Putin Unveils Kinzhal Hypersonic Missile
                    "A map does you no good if you don't know where you are"

                    Comment

                    • haavarla
                      Rank 5 Registered User
                      • Dec 2008
                      • 6646

                      According to British intelligence, the warhead is 800kg.

                      https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-n...fense/2018-03-
                      02/putin-unveils-kinzhal-hypersonic-missile

                      More like 480kg warhead. 800kg sounds exessive..
                      Thanks

                      Comment

                      • Levsha
                        Rank 5 Registered User
                        • Jan 2006
                        • 2821

                        At the least this should be the next interation from X-32M and certainly they would be carried beyond Mig-31 , likely Tu-22M3M and Su-34 the range of 2000 plus km is phenomenal but even using it at 1000 km range aginst moving targets and it can trade off its excess energy with shaped trajectory and agianst stationary target it can use the full range
                        Who seriously believes it has a 2,000 km range - just because Putin says so in a glorified Powerpoint presentation doesn't make it true, does it? Especially if its going to be carrying 500 or even 800 kg warhead.

                        What is the speed of the MiG-31 at launch - up to mach 2.35? Such a speed would certainly act as a sufficient booster stage for increasing range, I guess.
                        Last edited by Levsha; 6th March 2018, 14:22.

                        Comment

                        • haavarla
                          Rank 5 Registered User
                          • Dec 2008
                          • 6646

                          Who seriously believes it has a 2,000 km range - just because Putin says so in a glorified Powerpoint presentation doesn't make it true, does it? Especially if its going to be carrying 500 or even 800 kg warhead.

                          What is the speed of the MiG-31 at launch - up to mach 2.35? Such a speed would certainly act as a sufficient booster stage for increasing range, I guess.
                          Last edited by Levsha; 6th March 2018 at 15:22.
                          I don't think it has a 2000km range.
                          But i do think when its launched from a Mig-31 at high altitude, the range is more than 500km.
                          Thanks

                          Comment

                          • Austin
                            Rank 5 Registered User
                            • Oct 2003
                            • 6463

                            Range would be a function of its propellent burn out time , speed , altitude ,lift the design generates and weight unless we have all the variable any range would be a may be thing but I have no reason to believe the range he mentioned specially if it does a high altitude cruise and dive trajectory , and at mach 10 even a 100 kg warhead can do a great damage considering the KE it would have. Something like high energy slow burning dual propulsion would do the job
                            "A map does you no good if you don't know where you are"

                            Comment

                            • mfranjic
                              Rank 0+ Registered User
                              • Feb 2017
                              • 39


                              The Russian Defense Ministry reported that 33 passengers and 6 crew members were killed on Tuesday as a Russian transport plane crashed in Syria. The Russian media has quoted the Russian Defence Ministry as saying that the An-26, reg. RF-36162, MSN 9204, plane crashed during landing at Hmeimim airbase, near Latakia around 15:00 (Moscow time). Preliminary data suggests that a technical malfunction could be the reason for the crash. The plane had not come under fire according to a report from the ground. The transporter was around 500 metres from the runway, the statement said. A commission will investigate the causes of the crash. Initially it was reported that 32 persons were onboard.

                              This is the second time an Antonov An-26, a military transport aircraft capable of carrying up to 38 passengers and some 5.500 kilograms in cargo, crashes in Syria. A Syria-operated one crashed while landing at the besieged Abu al-Duhur military airport in Idlib in January 2015.

                              The Antonov An-26 is a twin-engine, high-wing turboprop utility transport aircraft that first flew in 1969. Since then, nearly 1.500 have been built by Russian aircraft company Antonov ASTC (АНТК ім. Антонова). In the nearly half-century since the aircraft has been flying it has established a somehow good record for dependability and the ability to operate from undeveloped, rough field airstrips. The aircraft is powered by two AI-24VT, single-shaft, turboprop engine (engine architecture: P]G[–10HPC3HPT), OPR: 7,65:1, rated at 2.860 PS / 2.103 kW.


                              ....................The images are the links to the articles ...
























                              ....Mario

                              Last edited by mfranjic; 6th March 2018, 20:09.
                              'Only a life lived for others is a life worthwhile' - Albert Einstein

                              Comment

                              • St. John
                                Rank 4 Registered User
                                • Jan 2018
                                • 568

                                Air-launched at high speed and ALBM might be capable of that range but the warhead size would have to be less than 800kg. The GAM-87 was 11.66m long and 0.89m wide and managed 1,850km with a 250kg warhead. As it stands and SM-3 could manage an intercept but a BGRV could complicate things.

                                Comment

                                • bring_it_on
                                  2005-year of the RAPTOR!!
                                  • Jun 2004
                                  • 12480

                                  SM3 is meant for Mid-Course intercepts well outside the atmosphere..Inside the atmosphere this task is for the SM6 and the future SM6-IB to handle. The SM3s lower envelope likely falls between 100 and 150 km altitude. The USN currently lacks an upper tier endo-atmospheric interceptor like the US Army has with THAAD. The ALBM threat may just be something that gets them to consider a naval THAAD (made compliant for their ships). This would now be possible given how much discrimination will improve with BL-10 and the arrival of the AMDR-S.

                                  The GAM-87 was 11.66m long and 0.89m wide and managed 1,850km with a 250kg warhead. A
                                  I don't seem to remember the top design speed for the -87 but seem to recall that the Pershing-II was a Mach 8 class weapon design...
                                  Last edited by bring_it_on; 6th March 2018, 16:30.
                                  Old radar types never die; they just phased array

                                  Comment

                                  • Marcellogo
                                    Rank 5 Registered User
                                    • Jun 2014
                                    • 1822

                                    The fact itself they used a modified MiG-31 i.e. a plane capable of both reaching very high altitude and supersonic cruise speed seem me to point to the capability to reach such range as a maximum, tactically it would however be wiser to reach a smaller one but with full manoeuvrability and a more discrete traiectory.
                                    Also because I just don't see the feasibility of converting what is considered a key asset of Air defence forces into a ASM carrier, let alone to built new ones just for such a role.

                                    Comment

                                    • sepheronx
                                      Senior Member
                                      • Jun 2015
                                      • 320

                                      A 10 Mach weapon that doesn't fly at standard BM flight path, is somehow easy to intercept? What? Plus, name me a missile that has been in service for decades, launched by an aircraft that flies at Mach 10

                                      Comment

                                      • bring_it_on
                                        2005-year of the RAPTOR!!
                                        • Jun 2004
                                        • 12480

                                        name me a missile that has been in service for decades, launched by an aircraft that flies at Mach 10
                                        There is no aircraft that flies at Mach 10.

                                        No one here is saying that this missile is "easy" to intercept. Some of us are trying to say that besides complicating some strategic sensor envelopes the intercept dynamics would be no different from intercepting a medium or intermediate ranged ballistic missile which also has terminal capability (like say a DF-21D or DF-26). This threat already exists out there.
                                        Last edited by bring_it_on; 6th March 2018, 18:13.
                                        Old radar types never die; they just phased array

                                        Comment

                                        • sepheronx
                                          Senior Member
                                          • Jun 2015
                                          • 320

                                          Originally posted by bring_it_on View Post
                                          There is no aircraft that flies at Mach 10.

                                          No one here is saying that this missile is "easy" to intercept. Some of us are trying to say that besides complicating some strategic sensor envelopes the intercept dynamics would be no different from intercepting a medium or intermediate ranged ballistic missile which also has terminal capability (like say a DF-21D or DF-26). This threat already exists out there.
                                          I would rather say it's different if it doesn't exactly fly at a ballistic path like the DF missiles do.

                                          Comment

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