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RuAF News and development Thread part 15

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  • FBW
    FBW
    Rank 5 Registered User
    • Dec 2011
    • 3295

    @TR-1

    No disagreements there..... Nor am I finger pointing solely at Russia. We have a current situation of two egotistical narcissists in control of nuclear arsenals. Maybe it’s time to start a new round of arms limitation negotiations.

    Nuclear armed cruise missiles should be the first to go. They are potentially the most destabilizing. No one wants to play “guess the payload” when cruise missiles start flying in theater. Failing that, categorize cruise missiles by payload, I.e only air launched missiles can carry nuclear warheads (specific types), ban missiles that can carry different payloads. May impact Russia more at first, but they are in the process up upgrading all their delivery systems, so that would be temporary.

    Comment

    • Marcellogo
      Rank 5 Registered User
      • Jun 2014
      • 1838

      In the same adress the nuclear-powered cruise missile has been specifically related to strategical deterrence and with only nuclear payload.
      Reason is quite obvious: even with a conventional payload it would result as a "dirty" bomb and so be counted into the total sum of nuclear weapons allowed.

      In any case more those weapons with exception of Kinzhal would pertain to Strategic Rocket forces or Navy, not Ruaf.

      Comment

      • JSR
        JSR
        Rank 5 Registered User
        • Aug 2011
        • 4976

        I was hoping Status-6 was just "We can make this - but dont make us" type of weapon. With the news of testing from several sources, modifications to the subs and the official confirmation of its existence, it is clear they are very serious about it.
        physics is not a very attractive profession for the best so better utilize them before they retired.
        I find it absolutely, utterly, insane that in almost 3 decades since Cold War practically nothing has changed on the nuclear front.
        why it will be change when Nuclear power industry is Russia key engineering export.
        But what do i know, i am just a goddamn hippie living in Norway.
        that I agree you don't know obvious from that one liners in T-50 thread does not have much.

        Comment

        • JSR
          JSR
          Rank 5 Registered User
          • Aug 2011
          • 4976

          @FBW
          @TR-1

          No disagreements there..... Nor am I finger pointing solely at Russia. We have a current situation of two egotistical narcissists in control of nuclear arsenals. Maybe its time to start a new round of arms limitation negotiations.
          I have corrected sever times before. Decisions are made based on supercomputer at Kremilin. nothing related to ego.
          I am sure much more information will be available to computers which look similar like this. and when you don't have that wide scientific breath and try to produce every thing complex it create a lot import dependency.

          https://sputniknews.com/military/201...ions-analysis/
          Science education figures are indicative, Plekhanov wrote. Currently, US educational institutions produce just over half-a-million graduates in science, technology, engineering and mathematics. In China, that figure is already 4.7 million, and growing.

          Comment

          • Trident
            Rank 5 Registered User
            • May 2004
            • 3965

            Originally posted by TR1 View Post
            CM-400AKG just looks like a smaller, conventional Kh-15 or similar simple aeroballistic rocket missiles.

            I would expect a new Russian Hypersonic AShM to be a little more interesting.
            Kh-15 (a bit smaller for CM-400AKG, larger for Kinzhal) is not a bad way of thinking about it.

            Sad thing is, the only of those new weapons systems which we saw compelling footage of isn't particularly interesting. Sure, security might be genuinely the reason why no decent imagery of the others is shown, but it's still a bit disappointing (although I wouldn't mind Status-6 or that global cruise missile thing being vapour ware).

            Originally posted by TR1 View Post
            I don't think so. Do you think the Russian electorate much cares or knows WTF Status-6 is? Do you think they closely follow American Nuclear Posture Reviews and how it relates to Russian forces? If the goal was just appearing strong, it would make imminently more sense in just parading something existing and over-inflating its capabilities. No need to commit to a new program (at worst) or not-subtle-messages to the US (at best) of a fundamentally destabilizing nature. These steps potentially have an actual cost in Russia to its international standing and negotiating capability, while having a rebadged Topol or Kalibr or Iskander to show off to public, woud not. Tanks, ballistic missiles, new planes on Red Square, that is all inline with a strong-leader image. Not this.



            Unconventional deterrence measures like shown recently are clearly a message to the US that Russia takes threats to its deterrence as very worrying.



            Right so, the issue here is the fundamental lack of trust. All Russia has to go on that the US won't base Tomahawks in Mk41 silos is "they promised not to". They can't even tour them. All it has to go off that there won't be more in the future, that ABM interceptors will not be replaced by improved variants, that Russia's second strike capability will not be potentially threatened, is a promise not to. Again, trust for a nation that unilaterally pulled out of the ABM treaty, steadily grown its huge military alliance to Russia's borders* and makes liberal use of its overwhelmingly powerful conventional forces across the globe.

            note, I think it is entirely in Eastern European countries right to join NATO, but again, that doesn't mean Russia has to ignore the strategic impact.
            Not saying Russia has been a saint globally itself, but you had to REALLY cover your eyes and ears up to not see the signals they are sending.
            Pretty good summary.

            FBW: Whether you like and understand it or not, the reality is that Russia doesn't trust the US an inch on anything without a binding treaty which crosses all the t's and dots all the i's. Take the ABM treaty - it is factually correct that, in its currently planned state of deployment, it isn't even so much as a speed bump to the massed might of the Russian nuclear arsenal, but the stark reality is that this argument completely misses the point which underlies Russia's insecurities on this subject. They're simply not comfortable with the idea that there is nothing to stop future enhancements that WOULD start them down the slippery slope of undermining the deterrent potential of offensive nuclear weapons.

            You can assure them all you want that it's not going to happen and isn't planned - without a treaty in hand which effectively prevents it, they will always be paranoid that the situation can be overturned any time at the mere whim of a US administration. I can comprehend how some find that attitude alienating, but it's just the way the cookie crumbles with the Russian regime, and if the US is interested in getting anywhere at all with them they'd better account for and accommodate it.
            Last edited by Trident; 2nd March 2018, 21:41.
            sigpic

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            • Austin
              Rank 5 Registered User
              • Oct 2003
              • 6475

              More details on these system

              Military Commander spoke about new type of weapon

              https://rg.ru/amp/2018/03/01/glavkom...-poslanii.html
              "A map does you no good if you don't know where you are"

              Comment

              • Austin
                Rank 5 Registered User
                • Oct 2003
                • 6475

                Glavkom VKS Russia revealed the secret of the hypersonic rocket "Dagger"

                https://rg.ru/2018/03/01/glavkom-vks...y-kinzhal.html

                The commander-in-chief of the Air and Space Forces of the Russian Federation Colonel-General Sergey Surovikin spoke about the capabilities and features of the newest hypersonic missile X-47M2 "Dagger".

                - A high-speed carrier aircraft delivers an aeroballistic missile to the discharge area in minutes. Further the march engine accelerates the ammunition to hypersonic speed in seconds. At the end of the trajectory, an all-weather homing head is turned on, it ensures the required accuracy and selectivity of target destruction at any time of the day, "said Surovikin.

                The flight to the target also takes a few seconds, which excludes the interception of the Dagger by air defense means. The length of the X-47M2 is about three meters, the speed of the ammunition exceeds 10 Mach, the range of its flight is 2000 kilometers. Since December 1, 2017, "Dagger" is being tested in combat combat operation in the Southern Military District with interceptors MiG-31BM.

                - Maneuvering the missile at speeds several times the speed of sound, it allows it to be guaranteed to overcome all existing and prospective air defense and missile defense systems. The effectiveness of the "Dagger" has been repeatedly confirmed in state trials. Now the issues of combat use of new weapons are being worked out, "the commander-in-chief added.
                "A map does you no good if you don't know where you are"

                Comment

                • TR1
                  TR1
                  http://tiny.cc/tp8kd
                  • Oct 2010
                  • 9819

                  Couple of An-26s donated to Nicaragua:

                  https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3107020.html

                  New Mi-28 for Algeria:





                  And Mi-35 for Pakistan:





                  sigpic

                  Comment

                  • TomcatViP
                    Rank 5 Registered User
                    • Nov 2011
                    • 6108

                    The venue of hypersonic missiles are the best card for Laser defense. Given the flows profiles and state of surrounding gases, you won't even probably need to reach a power of full destruction to deal with the threat. This low level of power ensuring appropriate dissemination of a resilient defense (airborne).

                    I am confident appropriate means could be in place (even in Eu) in time to offset the geo-strategical imbalance created by this new weapon.
                    Last edited by TomcatViP; 3rd March 2018, 20:27.

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                    • stealthflanker
                      Rank 5 Registered User
                      • Sep 2015
                      • 1016

                      Are those Mi-28's still using Tor as their optics ?

                      Comment

                      • Deino
                        Rank 5 Registered User
                        • Jan 2000
                        • 4224

                        ....

                        Click image for larger version

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                        ...

                        He was my North, my South, my East and West,
                        My working week and my Sunday rest,
                        My noon, my midnight, my talk, my song;
                        I thought that love would last forever; I was wrong.

                        The stars are not wanted now; put out every one:
                        Pack up the moon and dismantle the sun;
                        Pour away the ocean and sweep up the woods:
                        For nothing now can ever come to any good.
                        -------------------------------------------------
                        W.H.Auden (1945)

                        Comment

                        • Levsha
                          Rank 5 Registered User
                          • Jan 2006
                          • 2851

                          Kinzhal seems to me to be the sort of weapon system that US, NATO and other well-equipped navies have been arming themselves to combat against for last 3 decades at least? Kinzhal - easy meat for Aster, SM-2, SM-3 type missile?
                          Last edited by Levsha; 4th March 2018, 19:30.

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                          • haavarla
                            Rank 5 Registered User
                            • Dec 2008
                            • 6695

                            Similar stuff does exist on Surface ships, yes.

                            But what kind of flying platform can carry such weapon(Kinzhal) in well equipped western countries?

                            And to follow up, how many western countries has SM-3 type of missiles for intercept?

                            Here in Norway, we are currently talking about our National(US) Missile shield.. or would-be missile shield. THAAD has come up several times.. but its a looong way before such will happen.
                            We are stuck with our NASAM system.
                            And in the mean time our Navy Frigates can barely defend themself, let alone defend any coastal infrastructure from a missile like Kinzhal.
                            Thanks

                            Comment

                            • Levsha
                              Rank 5 Registered User
                              • Jan 2006
                              • 2851

                              But what kind of flying platform can carry such weapon(Kinzhal) in well equipped western countries?
                              That's not a relevant point - other countries possess other means of attacking naval forces - maybe they don't need Kinzhal.

                              And to follow up, how many western countries has SM-3 type of missiles for intercept?
                              Do you even need SM-3, maybe SM-2 or Aster is good enough? That was my original question?

                              Here in Norway...
                              Perhaps even RIM-162 ESSM as fitted on Norwegian naval frigates could prove effective?
                              Last edited by Levsha; 4th March 2018, 21:27.

                              Comment

                              • JSR
                                JSR
                                Rank 5 Registered User
                                • Aug 2011
                                • 4976

                                Kinzhal seems to me to be the sort of weapon system that US, NATO and other well-equipped navies have been arming themselves to combat against for last 3 decades at least? Kinzhal - easy meat for Aster, SM-2, SM-3 type missile?
                                there is no evidence that even export downgraded Mach 3 S curve Brahmos can be intercepted and that is 40 years old technology with several thousands purchased by India. Kinzhal export speed is Mach 10 and who knows real speed Mach 20. West simply cant compete with Russian wonder weopons.

                                Comment

                                • stealthflanker
                                  Rank 5 Registered User
                                  • Sep 2015
                                  • 1016

                                  The question is..how many would be launched. It's a matter of salvo size for anti ship missiles. and we don't know yet if Kinzhal also do maneuver or other tricks on its sleeve to avoid interception. 2000 km range roughly means terminal velocity of 4 km/s half of those ICBM's and missile apogee of about 500 km. I wonder what's the envelope of those ABM's.

                                  Comment

                                  • paralay
                                    Rank 5 Registered User
                                    • Aug 2005
                                    • 1411

                                    The Kinzhal is a weapon against the aircraft carrier grouping. If there is no aircraft carrier next to you, the Kinzhal does not threaten you

                                    Comment

                                    • bring_it_on
                                      2005-year of the RAPTOR!!
                                      • Jun 2004
                                      • 12480

                                      The question is..how many would be launched. It's a matter of salvo size for anti ship missiles. and we don't know yet if Kinzhal also do maneuver or other tricks on its sleeve to avoid interception. 2000 km range roughly means terminal velocity of 4 km/s half of those ICBM's and missile apogee of about 500 km. I wonder what's the envelope of those ABM's.
                                      The primary Sea Based Terminal (SBT) interceptor for the USN is currently the SM6 which is designed (and has demonstrated) to intercept Medium (1000-3000 km ranged weapons) and Short Range Ballistic Missiles. ESSM Blk. II will field SBT capability but it is only against the short ranged ballistic missiles. A Naval MSE, particularly one with a booster, would likely be a better ABM system with a larger envelope than the ESSM Blk. II but then the ESSM's primary role is not SBT.

                                      There is no naval THAAD for terminal (endoatmospheric) intercepts of IRBMs, but the US Navy CNO approved, this January, the requirements for the SM6 Block IB which provides a 21" motor (current SM6 has a diameter of 13.5") for enhanced capability. The USN is also studying fielding a Hypersonic Target Capability (HTC) to add to its SST/SSST portfolio. I could be wrong, but currently the only Air Launched Ballistic Missile targets available to the Navy/MDA are in the IRBM range as most if not all of the Short and Medium ranged targets are launched from land. They could change this and introduce air launched MR ballistic missile targets in the future.

                                      Edit - After checking, I was able to find at least two MRBM-SRBM Air Launched targets currently fielded by the MDA - Short Range Air-Launched Target (SRALT), and the Extended Long Range Air-Launched Target (eLRALT). In about a year, DARPA will kick of its TBG flight demonstration program, and the USAF will also have its own ARRW weapon in advanced development. A target based on either designs can also be created to simulate a short-medium range (likely 2000 km and less) hypersonic glide vehicle if they are looking to stress the sensors and shooters further. The USN has its own Medium-Intermediate range HGV program which they tested recently so they could also use its testing to further test how its sensors perform against such a target using real world (instead of simulation) event if they aren't using these very expensive tests to do it already.

                                      And to follow up, how many western countries has SM-3 type of missiles for intercept?
                                      SM3 family and the ABM mission is an added fleet defense capability that is not at all necessary in order to field an ability to defend against extended range ballistic missiles. Fielding terminal capability against them (instead of mid course) will be far cheaper from a sensor, shooter and networking perspective, particularly for smaller navies not looking at large defended areas. The SM6 has only recently been cleared for export, and although there will be some integration cost required to integrate it on non AEGIS vessels, it is a far cheaper, and easier capability to field than mid-course capability. Similarly, newer variants of ASTER are being designed to extend its envelope to cover the Medium ranged threat as well so that too is an option. The Naval MSE is yet another option which a perspective customer could look at particularly if it also operates land based Patriots. Finally, SM-2 Block IIIC is also in development and will feature an active seeker, although it remains to be seen whether it has enhanced TBM capability as a requirement or not.
                                      Last edited by bring_it_on; 5th March 2018, 19:42.
                                      Old radar types never die; they just phased array

                                      Comment

                                      • MSphere
                                        Senior Member
                                        • Feb 2010
                                        • 8983

                                        Official designation of the Kinzhal - Kh-47M2
                                        Last edited by MSphere; 5th March 2018, 10:10.

                                        Comment

                                        • FBW
                                          FBW
                                          Rank 5 Registered User
                                          • Dec 2011
                                          • 3295

                                          I fail to see how the Kinzhal is a game changer. A lot of "flash" but little substance. This isn't a hypersonic air breathing missile. It is a large rocket powered anti-ship missile. If it reaches the speeds quoted, that is in a ballistic trajectory, not exactly a novel concept. With many ships already possessing ABM capabilities, the mach 10 speed of this missile is largely irrelevant, it will be coming down on a largely predicable ballistic arc (not at all buying the video showing endgame approach at low level. A missile turning low altitude will bleed energy massively.)

                                          This weapon may have the potential to attack at low level at very high velocity, or attack at long range on a ballistic trajectory, but it's not going to fly 2,000km at mach 10 and then maneuver to defeat a layered missile defense. Considering the hype, I'm not convinced this weapon adds another dimension to the already impressive Russian AshM threat.

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