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RuAF News and development Thread part 15

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  • stealthflanker
    Rank 5 Registered User
    • Sep 2015
    • 1009

    Still there is a long-range missile "product 810" for T-50
    The wingless R-37 ?

    Im curious if 4 can be carried inside the bay (or 2 per bay)

    Comment

    • Sab3r329
      Rank 5 Registered User
      • Apr 2016
      • 90

      I'm assuming it's 4 total for 810.

      Out of curiosity, I was under the impression that 810 was a new missile with new technologies rather than a clipped R-37? If you look at Butowski's drawings, then it is visible that 810 is slightly different in size meaning that it could be clean sheet.

      Though, it is not much difference, as either variant still gives PAK-FA a significant advantage over other 5th gens/4th gens in air-to-air combat from just being able to shoot first and force the enemy to have to go evasive, or poking out AWACs+tankers.

      I'm more interested in the K-30 short range missile, I had heard that there was interesting stuff in regards to Morfei using a very short range IIR guided missile as its main missile, and it being cross service. And with regards to that, anything on 9M100? From what was heard and shown, it was supposed to actually look somewhat like K-30, with IIR and TVC, yet it's a minime 9M96?

      Comment

      • paralay
        Rank 5 Registered User
        • Aug 2005
        • 1400

        A large air-to-air missile in the PAK FA and PAK DA.
        Missile SAM 9M100
        Attached Files
        Last edited by paralay; 20th February 2018, 16:38.

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        • FBW
          FBW
          Rank 5 Registered User
          • Dec 2011
          • 3295

          Sceptical given the listed dimensions for Izdeliye 810 if it’s intended for internal carriage on the Su-57. Half meter longer than the K-77M and three times the weight. Diameter has got to be large. Who has an estimate on the length and width of the Su-57’s bays?

          And yes, I realize that’s what’s been stated, but can’t see four fitting internally. I could see two if the bays are reconfigurable and deep. All the fake sketches online forget that the bay needs to have space for the launcher and sufficient clearance between missiles (and sides of bay).
          Last edited by FBW; 20th February 2018, 17:00.

          Comment

          • FBW
            FBW
            Rank 5 Registered User
            • Dec 2011
            • 3295

            Have to rephrase the above post before someone has a fit:
            What I meant to say was that I am sceptical that the Idz.810 was designed solely for internal carriage on the Su-57. It would appear the missile is simply too large to fit more than one per bay (assuming there is no divider in each weapons bay, which is likely accurate considering the other large AtG missiles slated for internal carriage).
            The Kh-58UShKE graphic from years ago showed one per bay as well.

            Would seem more likely the missile could carried on aircraft smaller than the MiG-31, like the Su-57 and Su-35 giving them a long range AAM similar to the R-37 with the possibility of internal carriage on the Su-57 due to more compact control surfaces. Again does anyone have ACCURATE dimensions or estimates of weapons bay LxWxH?
            Last edited by FBW; 20th February 2018, 18:38.

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            • haavarla
              Rank 5 Registered User
              • Dec 2008
              • 6672

              The reality fix on Su-57 weapons is zippo.
              So feel free to speculate.
              I have for years speculate that Sukhoi would go with an interchangable or reconfigurable main w-Bay.

              It just seems like the way to go.

              About the nummerical missiles that goes into the W-bays. I have been somewhat sceptical from day one.
              Thanks

              Comment

              • paralay
                Rank 5 Registered User
                • Aug 2005
                • 1400

                Click image for larger version

Name:	weapons_bay.JPG
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ID:	3679096 Click image for larger version

Name:	weapons_bay_1.JPG
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ID:	3679097
                Last edited by paralay; 20th February 2018, 18:52.

                Comment

                • FBW
                  FBW
                  Rank 5 Registered User
                  • Dec 2011
                  • 3295

                  Paralay:
                  1. Your bay estimate is too wide. The bay is not wider than each of the F-22’s (definitely longer though)
                  2. How did you come up with the depth of the bay?
                  3. How do you know how much depth the ejector takes up? Seen nothing on the Su-57’s internal weapons ejectors, or types.

                  Comment

                  • Sab3r329
                    Rank 5 Registered User
                    • Apr 2016
                    • 90

                    Feel free to provide your own estimates, FBW.

                    Comment

                    • FBW
                      FBW
                      Rank 5 Registered User
                      • Dec 2011
                      • 3295

                      Originally posted by Sab3r329 View Post
                      Feel free to provide your own estimates, FBW.
                      Pass, zero hard info out there. One thing is clear the bay is not almost 3 K-77 (span) wide.

                      Comment

                      • paralay
                        Rank 5 Registered User
                        • Aug 2005
                        • 1400

                        2 x 3 RVV-SD or 2 x 4 advanced missiles, and F-22

                        Click image for larger version

Name:	weapons_bay_3.JPG
Views:	1
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ID:	3679098
                        Last edited by paralay; 20th February 2018, 22:27.

                        Comment

                        • FBW
                          FBW
                          Rank 5 Registered User
                          • Dec 2011
                          • 3295

                          Paralay, am I taking crazy pills or are there no dimensions in any of those patents. Reading them, they are a generalized description of the layout and rationale.

                          The launcher doesn’t have any dimensions either, and there is no way to determine that is the design chosen for the Su-57.

                          Comment

                          • Trident
                            Rank 5 Registered User
                            • May 2004
                            • 3963

                            Originally posted by FBW View Post
                            Pass, zero hard info out there. One thing is clear the bay is not almost 3 K-77 (span) wide.
                            Thing is, being 3 K-77 wide (in X-configuration rather than +) and not being wider than one of the F-22 bays is actually a question of a couple of inches - too close to call based on a mere hunch. Thanks to the low-aspect ratio strakes and given folding tail fins, the K-77 is actually a very compact AAM despite the relatively large body diameter (with a +-position span of 0.42m it'll fit a 0.3m by 0.3m cross section in X-config). With some clearance between missiles and between missiles and the bay walls - consider how tightly the AMRAAMs are packed in the F-22 - anything at least 1m in width (less than 10cm more than a Raptor main bay AFAIK) should be sufficient .

                            As for depth, I'm not sure anymore what the source was, but I'm pretty sure a cross section of 1m wide by 0.6m deep is all but confirmed.
                            sigpic

                            Comment

                            • FBW
                              FBW
                              Rank 5 Registered User
                              • Dec 2011
                              • 3295

                              Right, wasnt estimating if three could fit. I was using the known dimensions to compare to the size of the bay. I wouldnt want to guess +\- 50mm of actual size but less than a meter plus wide (as paralay is stating) for the bay, id take that bet.
                              Last edited by FBW; 21st February 2018, 00:21.

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                              • stealthflanker
                                Rank 5 Registered User
                                • Sep 2015
                                • 1009

                                Isn't Su-57 bay is the same dimension as one demonstrated in Su-47 ?

                                Comment

                                • paralay
                                  Rank 5 Registered User
                                  • Aug 2005
                                  • 1400

                                  Click image for larger version

Name:	weapons_bay_4.JPG
Views:	1
Size:	193.3 KB
ID:	3679100

                                  Comment

                                  • Austin
                                    Rank 5 Registered User
                                    • Oct 2003
                                    • 6463

                                    With Offset and part Barter payment this turns out to be $103 Million per aircraft

                                    Indonesia Places Firm Order for 11 Su-35 Multirole Fighters
                                    "A map does you no good if you don't know where you are"

                                    Comment

                                    • Austin
                                      Rank 5 Registered User
                                      • Oct 2003
                                      • 6463

                                      some very interesting stastics by SD loss of $3 billion

                                      US State Department: new sanctions have frustrated Russia's contracts for $ 3 billion

                                      https://ria.ru/economy/20180221/1515...k=index_main_3

                                      WASHINGTON, Feb 21 (RIA Novosti). The US Department of State believes that the anti-Russian sanctions under the law "On Countering America's Enemies through Sanctions" (CAATSA) led to losses of the Russian defense industry by about $ 3 billion, said Foreign Ministry spokesman Heather Nauert.

                                      new US sanctions want to create competitive advantages
                                      "The termination of such transactions, in fact, is a punishment, why? Because it means that less money goes to the Russian budget, so it can be considered a success in attracting Russia to responsibility," she said.

                                      Naueert reminded that all American diplomatic missions were instructed to make efforts to prevent business contacts with Russia, primarily with its defense industry complex.


                                      РИА Новости https://ria.ru/economy/20180221/1515029205.html
                                      "A map does you no good if you don't know where you are"

                                      Comment

                                      • Austin
                                        Rank 5 Registered User
                                        • Oct 2003
                                        • 6463

                                        So all US diplomat now tasked with preventing Russian defence contract ? I wonder how does that work , Russian customers mostly are those who would not any way buy or denied US arms , there are some like India Algeria etc who would procure both from West and Russia and then is Indonesia who would want some kind of barter payment method.

                                        Certainly this is taking diplomacy to the next level !

                                        There was a news piece by Ajai Shukla where he mentions US will sell F-35 only if India does not go for FGFA, so that is the kind of pressure US would apply on India and others

                                        http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2018/0...buy-fifth.html

                                        Sources close to the Pentagon say India would not be sold the F-35 as long as it is partnering Russia in the FGFA co-development project. That is because Washington would guard against the leakage of F-35 technology into the FGFA.
                                        Last edited by Austin; 21st February 2018, 05:35.
                                        "A map does you no good if you don't know where you are"

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