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RuAF News and development Thread part 15

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  • MSphere
    Senior Member
    • Feb 2010
    • 8983

    Definitely not anything of the Al-41 family..
    It's three-tone, BTW..

    Comment

    • stealthflanker
      Rank 5 Registered User
      • Sep 2015
      • 1027

      However.. the reason why they still keep the N001 radar family for SM series. kinda escapes me. They could look into Phazotron Zhuk-27 family but i guess NIIP Tikhomirov won't be pleased on it.

      Comment

      • haavarla
        Rank 5 Registered User
        • Dec 2008
        • 6715

        Nice stuff!
        So what are we seeing here, Legacy Su-27S being upgraded to SM3 or was this some Su-27SM before?
        Thanks

        Comment

        • Galcom
          Rank 5 Registered User
          • Feb 2010
          • 160

          Russian Frontal Aviation Arms - Order of Battle
          updated


          http://www.easternorbat.com/html/rus...force_eng.html

          Click image for larger version

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          Last edited by Galcom; 29th December 2017, 12:49.

          Comment

          • medo
            Rank 5 Registered User
            • Dec 2010
            • 326

            I think Su-27SM3 use AL-31FM1 engines.

            However.. the reason why they still keep the N001 radar family for SM series. kinda escapes me. They could look into Phazotron Zhuk-27 family but i guess NIIP Tikhomirov won't be pleased on it.
            As far as I know N001VEP radar is actually more capable than Zhuk-27 and it is cheaper as they only need to replace some components and not whole radar. Also N001VEP is serial produced radar used in export Su-30MK2 and domestic Su-30M2 and Su-27 SM/SM3, while Zhuk-27 was not in serial production.

            Comment

            • stealthflanker
              Rank 5 Registered User
              • Sep 2015
              • 1027

              Well in terms of technology and capability. Zhuk-27 is way more advanced compared to N001 family and it's exactly comparable to late APG-63 and 70 variant for late F-15's. Plus it's lighter with slotted planar array antenna.

              The only reason i can think of is more like Politics where NIIP Tikhomirov simply won't allow it's monopoly to Flanker radar's be broken by Phazotron. In other hand we see MiG-29's fleet radar entirely made and developed by Phazotron despite NIIP Tikhomirov's OSA and Bars-29 offerings.

              Comment

              • Arihant
                Rank 5 Registered User
                • Apr 2017
                • 440

                However.. the reason why they still keep the N001 radar family for SM series. kinda escapes me. They could look into Phazotron Zhuk-27 family but i guess NIIP Tikhomirov won't be pleased on it.
                I knew SM3 had the N035 Snow Leopard radar.
                Which variant of N001 does the SM3 use? The multi role VEP variant?

                How is the SM3 different from the SM2 and SM? I thought SM3 shares most of the mission sensors and avionics of the Su-35S.

                Comment

                • haavarla
                  Rank 5 Registered User
                  • Dec 2008
                  • 6715

                  There never was a SM2 variant. That was supposed to be N035. But it never happen, due to funding or the lack of it.
                  IMO, SM2 was a upgrade with Su-35S standard, while SM3 was a cheaper and less capable one.
                  Last edited by haavarla; 30th December 2017, 10:26.
                  Thanks

                  Comment

                  • haavarla
                    Rank 5 Registered User
                    • Dec 2008
                    • 6715

                    Regarding N001VEP, yes its a cheaper Radar. BARS has a larger Array, it is more capable. Better A2G modes.
                    Besides Radar, you would think UAC has now standarized most sub systems between SM3 and Su-30SM.

                    They now both have the very same engines(bar nozzles).
                    Thanks

                    Comment

                    • Berkut
                      Senior Member
                      • Nov 2011
                      • 2216

                      Nonsense. There was/is SM2. It is called SM2 cause it was signed under second contract and it even has uprated engines.

                      Comment

                      • MSphere
                        Senior Member
                        • Feb 2010
                        • 8983

                        Originally posted by Arihant
                        I knew SM3 had the N035 Snow Leopard radar.
                        No.. In fact, BARS was never considered, AFAIK..

                        Originally posted by Arihant
                        Which variant of N001 does the SM3 use? The multi role VEP variant?
                        Yes, but with improvements on the radar antenna, transmitter and receiver module

                        Originally posted by Arihant
                        How is the SM3 different from the SM2 and SM? I thought SM3 shares most of the mission sensors and avionics of the Su-35S.
                        - Al-31FM1 engines with more thrust and double service life
                        - strenghtened airframe and landing gear
                        - 12 pylons instead of 10
                        - max. loadout 8 tons instead of 6 tons
                        - SUV-P-RM weapon control system instead of SUV-P-R
                        - improvements on the radar
                        - L265M10 Khibiny-M ECM Suite instead of SPS-171 (L005S) Sorbtsiya-S
                        - added compatibility with Izd.170-1 missile

                        Comment

                        • haavarla
                          Rank 5 Registered User
                          • Dec 2008
                          • 6715

                          https://www.aviaport.ru/news/2011/02/10/210810.html

                          About AL-31FM1
                          Thanks

                          Comment

                          • stealthflanker
                            Rank 5 Registered User
                            • Sep 2015
                            • 1027

                            The technical specs AL-31FM1

                            http://www.salut.ru/Section.php?SectionId=18

                            That includes TVC as option.



                            The Salyut solution looks lighter in weight compared to AL-31FP as the only thing move is the nozzle petals while AL-31FP and prob 117S move the whole nozzle assembly.

                            Comment

                            • JSR
                              JSR
                              Rank 5 Registered User
                              • Aug 2011
                              • 4982

                              SM3 also has new datalink and twice effective in air to air.
                              https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-n...intended-china
                              The onboard communications complex is jam-proof and provides a secure datalink with ground command posts and airborne assets. According to Sukhoi the Su-27SM(3) is more than twice as effective against aerial targets and three times more effective against ground targets than the Su-27S.

                              Comment

                              • medo
                                Rank 5 Registered User
                                • Dec 2010
                                • 326

                                AFAIK domestic Su-30SM use AL-31FM1 engines with TVC while export MKI/MKM/MKA use standard AL-31F with TVC.

                                Comment

                                • mfranjic
                                  Rank 0+ Registered User
                                  • Feb 2017
                                  • 39

                                  Originally posted by Arihant View Post
                                  Which engine is installed in SM3? AL-31FM2 or AL-41F1S?
                                  Unfortunately (I wish it was!), none of these two, Arihant. This aircraft is powered by two AL-31F M1 (АЛ-31Ф серии 42/изд. 99M1), twin-shaft, (TVC), afterburning turbofans ...

                                  The AL-41F-1S (изд. 117С), twin-shaft, afterburning, TVC, turbofan engine (fan diameter: 932,0 mm / 36,7 in; BPR: 0,65:1; engine architecture: 4F–9HPC1HPT–1LPT), OPR: 23,10:1, originally known as the AL-37FU, now being marketed under the designation AL-41F-1S, is one of the most sophisticated and powerful variant of the AL-31F (изд. 99В) engine produced to date. It features 86,30 kN / 8.800 kgf / 19.401 lbf of dry thrust, 142,20 kN / 14.500 kgf / 31.967 lbf with the afterburner, Thrust Vector Control (TVC) system for the enhanced aircraft maneuverability, similar to that of the Saturn AL-31FP (изд. 96) engine. The Saturn 117S turbofan engine introduces a wider fan (932 mm compared with 905 mm in AL-31F), advanced low- and high-pressure turbines, and all new digital control system (FADEC). The service life of the AL-41F-1S (117S) engine is 4.000 flight hours with the time between overhauls (TBO) increasing by 2 x to 1.000 flight hours compared with AL-31F service life of 1.500 flight hours and TBO of 500 hours. The new engine time for the first overhaul is 1.500 flight hours. JSC NPO "Saturn" (ПАО "НПО "Сатурн") built five prototype engines, with the first engine entering the test program in March 2004. The engine development was funded by Sukhoi (40%), NPO Saturn (30%) and UMPO (30%). The first production Saturn 117S engine was shipped to KnAAPO (now KnAAZ) in early 2007 to undergo flight tests, powering the first Sukhoi Su-35BM (Изделие Т-10БМ) prototype. The engine is produced by . Currently, this engine is the powerplant of the RuAF's Sukhoi Su-35S and PLAAF's Sukhoi Su-35SK aircraft only.

                                  The Salyut AL-31F M2 (изд. 99M2/99СМ), twin-shaft, TVC, afterburning turbofan (fan diameter: 924,0 mm / 36,4 in; BPR: 0,61:1; engine architecture: 4F–9HPC1HPT–1LPT), OPR: 26,09:1, rated at 142,20 kN / 14.500 kgf / 31.967 lbf on the afterburner, could be a low-cost option for the remotorization of Su-27, Su-30 and Su-34 fleet, now operated by the Russian military and is likewise deliverable to the foreign customers. The technical specifications and requirements of Su-27SM/SM2/SM3 and Su-34 aircraft, currently powered by Salyut AL-31F M1 (АЛ-31Ф серии 42/изд. 99M1), twin-shaft, afterburning turbofan (fan diameter: 924,0 mm / 36,4 in; BPR: 0,61:1; engine architecture: 4F–9HPC1HPT–1LPT), OPR: 24,00:1, rated at 132,40 kN / 13.500 kgf / 29.762 lbf on the afterburner, call for the engines with the increased thrust and improved fuel consumption, with the Salyut AL-31F M2 fulfilling these needs. The installation can be performed without any rework of the aircraft and could take place in the field conditions. My personal opinion is that this engine is quite comparable and on a par with the Saturn AL-41F-1S (изд. 117С) engine.

                                  Originally posted by stealthflanker View Post
                                  The Salyut solution looks lighter in weight compared to AL-31FP as the only thing move is the nozzle petals while AL-31FP and prob 117S move the whole nozzle assembly.
                                  … two pretty different, but both very interesting, designs of the nozzles …

                                  .....

                                  ..........
                                  ..........Image above: One of the Salyut AL-31F engines during the testing

                                  The next two images clearly show the difference in between JSC NPO "Saturn" AL-31FP's (left) and "MMPP "SALUT" AL-31F M1's variable convergent-divergent TVC nozzles ...



                                  On the Salyut engine's nozzle, the deflection section is quite short ...



                                  ... because of the fact the design of the nozzle applied on "MMPP "SALUT" ("ММПП "Салют") engines are much more compact …



                                  ... than the one on the JSC NPO "Saturn" (ПАО "НПО "Сатурн") engines …



                                  Image above: The mechanism closer to the core of the Saturn AL-31FP engine is aimed for the directing of the nozzle, while the one closer to the nozzle's petals controls the geometry of the convergent-divergent TVC nozzle in the different modes of operation.

                                  The next two images show variable convergent-divergent nozzles of two pretty different engines, with the cylinders of the actuating mechanism. On the left-hand side is the nozzle of the Saturn AL-41F-1, twin-shaft, afterburning, TVC, turbofan engine designed for the propulsion of the Sukhoi "PAK FA" / T-50 aircraft and on the right-hand side is the one of the NK-32, three-shaft, afterburning, turbofan engine of theTu-160 supersonic, variable-sweep wing, heavy strategic bomber .



                                  Originally posted by medo View Post
                                  AFAIK domestic Su-30SM use AL-31FM1 engines with TVC …
                                  Not really …

                                  ... IAPO - Irkutsk Aircraft Production Assocaition (ПАО "Корпорация "Иркут") produced Sukhoi Su-30SM is powered by two AL-31FP (изд. 96), twin-shaft, TVC, afterburning turbofans (fan diameter: 35,6 in / 905,0 mm; BPR: 0,56:1; engine architecture:
                                  4F–9HPC1HPT–1LPT), OPR: 22,87:1, each rated at 74,56 kN / 7.600 kgf / 16.756 lbf dry and 122,62 kN / 12.500 kgf / 27.558 lbf with the afterburner.

                                  The aircraft that are powered by two AL-31F M1 (АЛ-31Ф серии 42/изд. 99M1), twin-shaft, (TVC), afterburning turbofan (fan diameter: 924,0 mm / 36,4 in; BPR: 0,61:1; engine architecture: 4F–9HPC1HPT–1LPT), OPR: 24,00:1, with the new KND 924-4 fan/LP compressor (FPR: 3,68), rated at 80,90kN / 8.250 kgf / 18.188 lbf dry and 132,40 kN / 13.500 kgf / 29.762 lbf on the afterburner, are Russian fighter jets Su-27SM/SM2/SM3 and Su-34. The engine has the option to be equipped with the KLIVT thrust vector nozzles (also used on the MiG-29 derivatives: MiG-29M OVT-TVC demonstrator and recently presented MiG-35.

                                  Sukhoi Su-34, twin-seat, all-weather, supersonic, medium-range fighter-bomber/strike aircraft has the engines with the conventional nozzles.

                                  Originally posted by medo View Post
                                  … while export MKI/MKM/MKA use standard AL-31F with TVC.
                                  ... and this engine is called Saturn AL-31FP (изд. 96). Yes, the same one used on the above mentioned Sukhoi Su-30SM aircraft...

                                  All the Su-27 aircraft' two-seat derivatives with the canards, and which You have mentioned, use the same type of the engine – Saturn AL-31FP (изд. 96).

                                  Mario
                                  Last edited by mfranjic; 12th March 2018, 07:53.
                                  'Only a life lived for others is a life worthwhile' - Albert Einstein

                                  Comment

                                  • haavarla
                                    Rank 5 Registered User
                                    • Dec 2008
                                    • 6715

                                    Alright.. not saying that^ is wrong.
                                    But I completely fail to see why VKS choose to sport AL-31FM1 engines on their Su-34 but NOT on their spanking new Su-30SM....
                                    Thanks

                                    Comment

                                    • TR1
                                      TR1
                                      http://tiny.cc/tp8kd
                                      • Oct 2010
                                      • 9826

                                      Su-34 has been mostly delivered with Al-31F to date.

                                      And yes, SM has Al-31FN, there were news about Irkut buying them for the domestic birds.
                                      sigpic

                                      Comment

                                      • TR1
                                        TR1
                                        http://tiny.cc/tp8kd
                                        • Oct 2010
                                        • 9826

                                        Nonsense. There was/is SM2. It is called SM2 cause it was signed under second contract and it even has uprated engines.
                                        Serially produced, or do you mean a few per-serial air frames? Not aware of it actually existing.
                                        sigpic

                                        Comment

                                        • haavarla
                                          Rank 5 Registered User
                                          • Dec 2008
                                          • 6715

                                          I have a magazine(Airforces M, or Air I) which says that around 2008, Russian MoD looked at upgrading older existing Flankers with stuff that Su-35S got. Not entirely sure what, but it included engines and radar. Anyway it was deemed too costly and was not persued. If they ever did this with some airframe i don't know.
                                          It also said that this was called SM2 upgrade..
                                          Last edited by haavarla; 30th December 2017, 21:30.
                                          Thanks

                                          Comment

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