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RuAF News and development Thread part 15

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  • JSR
    JSR
    Rank 5 Registered User
    • Aug 2011
    • 4982

    how do you know MIG-29 is not cheaper to operate?. India which is always money pinching could have boughh 30 Su-30MKI from local production than upgrading 64 MIG-29. MIG-35 decrease cost further and it is from separate industrial chain than Flanker.

    Comment

    • Marcellogo
      Rank 5 Registered User
      • Jun 2014
      • 1840

      It was cheaper to operate but not at such a point to be convenient in reason of the capability gap it had in the post-cold war era when compared to a Su-30 MKI.
      Thet's is the reason for the development of the multirole M2 and MiG-35 as in this case the enhanced performance and operational flexibility that they grant when compared to pristine models should made them operatively convenient.

      Comment

      • JangBoGo
        Rank 5 Registered User
        • Jan 2011
        • 1510

        Awesome shot of the IL-76s displaying some fireworks.
        From Ru MoD twitter


        https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DHhT2paXsAAE2XB.jpg: orig



        So many F-22 fans don't like hearing about how that plane isn't the greatest.
        Thats what the murican fanboys believed to the core and wanted all others to believe as well.

        What we saw and heard in the media when the F-22 was promoted was ---->
        1) It will be the last US manned fighter!
        2) Next will be the age of unmanned fighters!

        Then the Russians revealed the PAK-FA out of nowhere, that too almost in record time!!!

        What we saw next was....

        A proposal for 6th Gen US manned fighter!

        Comment

        • Arihant
          Rank 5 Registered User
          • Apr 2017
          • 440

          We decided to undertake a deep modernisation of our vanilla MiG-29B12 because almost each and every airframe had around 1500-1800 hours left in them. The modernisation also consisted of a thorough SLEP , re-enging of the entire fleet with brand new RD-33ser3M engines besides the usual radar,IRST ,avionics and other stuff. The entire upgrade costs a paltry 964 mil USD which is rather cheap considering new engines, a 950 ltr conformal fuel tank ,etc.

          An interesting aspect of the upgrade is the new unified Radar warner jammer suite. DARE acted as a systems integrator for this ECM suite. It consists of the ELT-568 suite from Elettronica besides a new digital Tarang RWR. The Elt-568 has aesa based rf jammers which are produced here in India thru a JV with Alpha Electronics. A variant of the ELT-568 forms a part of the Praetorian Ew suite of the Eurofighter.

          Comment

          • Trident
            Rank 5 Registered User
            • May 2004
            • 3970

            Originally posted by RadDisconnect
            Regarding criticisms of the MiG-29, I have to say I agree for the most part. In terms of capabilities, the MiG-29 really doesn't offer anything the Flanker can't do. Yet it doesn't seem to be much cheaper to operate, which makes its existence even more questionable in today's environment.
            Yup. F-16ADF-level avionics capabilities and fuel capacity in a twin-engined, much heavier F/A-18-size package, hence poor range range and much higher cost than justified by its performance.
            sigpic

            Comment

            • Deino
              Rank 5 Registered User
              • Jan 2000
              • 4228

              ... Then the Russians revealed the PAK-FA out of nowhere, that too almost in record time!!!
              Pardon, but when was the T50 first aimed to enter service ? In what numbers and ...

              Come on ! In the same way You are mocking how much these F-22-lovers are exaggerate - and You are right - You are hyping a fighter, that is late even by official sources, delayed with nearly all development schedules, probably still hampered by issues and will be introduced in much lower numbers than expected.

              In Germany we always say: Wer im Glashaus sitzt, sollte nie mit Steinen werfen
              ...

              He was my North, my South, my East and West,
              My working week and my Sunday rest,
              My noon, my midnight, my talk, my song;
              I thought that love would last forever; I was wrong.

              The stars are not wanted now; put out every one:
              Pack up the moon and dismantle the sun;
              Pour away the ocean and sweep up the woods:
              For nothing now can ever come to any good.
              -------------------------------------------------
              W.H.Auden (1945)

              Comment

              • maurobaggio
                Rank 5 Registered User
                • Jul 2008
                • 521

                In my opinion Deino is absolutely correct in the post above, but I think that among Deino description it could has been introduce some other fighters besides the PAK-FA such as: F-22A, F-35A/B/C, J-20 , FC-31( J-31?) and several others if we included those from 4.5th and 4.0th Generation fighters, until we finally will reaching the Me-262 from the first generation of jet fighters, in that case the complete list could be quite extensive.

                New technologies has been creating new problems that has been demanding new solutions( new technologies) .These 'surprises' has been often not predicted in schedules setting in the conceptual phase of the program. In resume it could be described as learning curve.

                As well as political and commercial factors in some cases( most cases!) will overlap the technological factors, then it could be responsible for setting unrealistic goals and objectives for the program.About the time of the former Soviet Union none program were never behind the schedules or it had been found out problems at the official statements by the state press .

                In this case censorship in the information about deadlines could yields good dividends in the field of internal and external advertising when these can be implemented with 'descriptions', but this high rate of good results were not exactly the reality in the former Soviet Union once important facilities in Siberia were always crowded with celebrities guests.

                As it has described in the article about the PAK-FA I guess that in near future the PAK-FA and others fighters from 5th Generation will be able to perform some missions as reconnaissance in the unmanned mode, after all the fighters from 4th Generations has been limited at the load of 9G because of the crews( human physiology), since those fighters had been developed along the 70's it could be able to perform maneuvers with load factors of 12G. In addition the pilots has been restricted the time of the the missions around 10 hours maximum, but it should be possible to extend the missions through refueling in air beyond further 10 hours, but again the limit are the resistance of the pilots.

                Some research's had been carried out in U.S and Soviet Union since the 70's to create aircraft's ( fighters, bombers and others) that could operate with crews or like such UCAV in function of the mission.

                In the case of the former Soviet Union the greatest example of the research had been carried out in this field should be the space program of the Buran orbiters, since the Buran spacecraft could be manned or not depending on the mission.


                By the way Deino or someone with great knowledge from German language could translate the German expression into English, since I think translators would ruined its meaning.

                Comment

                • TR1
                  TR1
                  http://tiny.cc/tp8kd
                  • Oct 2010
                  • 9826

                  ", probably still hampered by issues and will be introduced in much lower numbers than expected."
                  What are these "much lower numbers" than were envisaged, and when? You don't mean the "60 by 2020" line that was PR that no-one serious took as a real time commitment, surely?

                  As for issues, well, you have information the rest of us lack?
                  Last edited by TR1; 22nd August 2017, 02:13.
                  sigpic

                  Comment

                  • Blitzo
                    Rank 5 Registered User
                    • Jan 2011
                    • 1332

                    @ TR1

                    What are these "much lower numbers" than were envisaged, and when? You don't mean the "60 by 2020" line that was PR that no-one serious took as a real time commitment, surely?

                    As for issues, well, you have information the rest of us lack?

                    Regarding PAK FA service date/service number predictions over the last few years, have there been any predictions of PAK FA in service date/number from Russian authorities that you would deem as credible and/or not PR lines?


                    Because for those of us who aren't as aware about which individuals in the Russian military/aviation industry/establishment are considered credible or whom should or shouldn't be taken seriously for these matters, if someone with an official sounding title puts out a claim, it is going to be interpreted as credible.

                    Comment

                    • JSR
                      JSR
                      Rank 5 Registered User
                      • Aug 2011
                      • 4982

                      We decided to undertake a deep modernisation of our vanilla MiG-29B12 because almost each and every airframe had around 1500-1800 hours left in them. The modernisation also consisted of a thorough SLEP , re-enging of the entire fleet with brand new RD-33ser3M engines besides the usual radar,IRST ,avionics and other stuff. The entire upgrade costs a paltry 964 mil USD which is rather cheap considering new engines, a 950 ltr conformal fuel tank ,etc.

                      An interesting aspect of the upgrade is the new unified Radar warner jammer suite. DARE acted as a systems integrator for this ECM suite. It consists of the ELT-568 suite from Elettronica besides a new digital Tarang RWR. The Elt-568 has aesa based rf jammers which are produced here in India thru a JV with Alpha Electronics. A variant of the ELT-568 forms a part of the Praetorian Ew suite of the Eurofighte
                      $964m in early 2008 dollars and it does not include engines which are also in 2007 dollars. MIG-29 need separate set of pilot training and infrastructure and upgrades takes way longer than buy new Su-30MKI from production line. I bet $1.3b in 2007 could have given extra 40 Su-30MKI.


                      https://www.flightglobal.com/news/ar...mig-29-208941/
                      Under the agreements, which were expected to be finalised during negotiations with Russia's Rosoboronexport sales organisation last week, the Chernyshev Machine-building plant - part of Russia's RSK MiG - will supply 20 RD-33 engines to India from early 2007 under a $25 million deal

                      http://klimov.ru/en/media/news/?ELEMENT_ID=276
                      On January 24, 2007 Russian Defense Minister, Vice-Prime Minister Sergey Ivanov signed a contract on license production of RD-33 series 3 engines in India. Klimov JSC, being the designer of the engine, has been defined as the head enterprise on supply of the design documents. The contract worth of 250 million US dollars provides the production of 120 upgraded RD-33 engines with increased service life at the base of HAL (Hindustan Aeronautics Limited) Indian Corporation. In addition to the design documents supply Klimov JSC will provide Indian partners with the maintenance and consulting support.

                      Comment

                      • RadDisconnect
                        Rank 5 Registered User
                        • Jul 2013
                        • 531

                        Technical issues are causing delays in the first place, such as structural rework. There's also the fact that the initial batch of aircraft won't be using the izd.30 engines. There was also the RuAF chief (think it was Mikhailov) promises of the PAK FA first flight being in 2007.

                        All that makes JangBoGo's statements like the PAK FA coming out of nowhere in record time more than a little funny.

                        Comment

                        • JSR
                          JSR
                          Rank 5 Registered User
                          • Aug 2011
                          • 4982

                          Yup. F-16ADF-level avionics capabilities and fuel capacity in a twin-engined, much heavier F/A-18-size package, hence poor range range and much higher cost than justified by its performance
                          F16 simply dont give the accleration and altitude for maximum range strike. plus less engine power and smaller nose for radar and EW.
                          MIG35 loaded performance will be far better and twin engine F-16 internal fuel capacity further reduced. when battlespace get more complex the twin seat and twin engine fighter advantage increase.

                          https://sputniknews.com/military/201...5-fighter-jet/
                          The MiG-35 is armed with a 30-mm cannon and carries 1,500 rounds of ammunition. It can carry up to 7,000 kg of payload on ten external pylons.

                          Comment

                          • TR1
                            TR1
                            http://tiny.cc/tp8kd
                            • Oct 2010
                            • 9826

                            The technical issues with the airframe are well known, but I am interested why Dieno suspects they remain.
                            Initial batch was never going to use izd.30 so that shouldn't be news to anyone.
                            IDK about record time, seems to be doing fine to me, not spectacular or anything.

                            Regarding PAK FA service date/service number predictions over the last few years, have there been any predictions of PAK FA in service date/number from Russian authorities that you would deem as credible and/or not PR lines?


                            Because for those of us who aren't as aware about which individuals in the Russian military/aviation industry/establishment are considered credible or whom should or shouldn't be taken seriously for these matters, if someone with an official sounding title puts out a claim, it is going to be interpreted as credible.
                            Yeah, Sukhoi documents. Actual contracts with the MOD. Not vague "we will have this then" comments that media publishes and people think actually mean anything. Even in the GOZ 2011-2020 the "60 T-50" was basically an ambiguous item of general desire, not a contract or a deadline. Rogozin is the deputy PM in charge of defense matters FFS, nothing that comes out of his mouth is relevant to anything.

                            IMO VKS was planning to have "interim" powered batch earlier this decade by a couple of years, but as a result of the airframe issues that had to be pushed back, and will settle on only a small 117 powered batch before izd30 is finished. Any other delay was normal timeline creep and the result of an ambitious project's natural development.
                            I don't think total numbers acquired will be shifting, nor has the end-fleet size goal changed much since project began in the 2000s. Your guess is as good as mine as to what the fleet goal is, but I doubt it will be south of 300 air-frames when all is said an ddone.
                            Last edited by TR1; 22nd August 2017, 03:10.
                            sigpic

                            Comment

                            • Blitzo
                              Rank 5 Registered User
                              • Jan 2011
                              • 1332

                              @ TR1

                              Yeah, Sukhoi documents. Actual contracts with the MOD. Not vague "we will have this then" comments that media publishes and people think actually mean anything. Even in the GOZ 2011-2020 the "60 T-50" was basically an ambiguous item of general desire, not a contract or a deadline. Rogozin is the deputy PM in charge of defense matters FFS, nothing that comes out of his mouth is relevant to anything.

                              IMO VKS was planning to have "interim" powered batch earlier this decade by a couple of years, but as a result of the airframe issues that had to be pushed back, and will settle on only a small 117 powered batch before izd30 is finished. Any other delay was normal timeline creep and the result of an ambitious project's natural development.
                              I don't think total numbers acquired will be shifting, nor has the end-fleet size goal changed much since project began in the 2000s. Your guess is as good as mine as to what the fleet goal is, but I doubt it will be south of 300 air-frames when all is said an ddone.
                              thanks.

                              So basically, the only credible info is from sukhoi documents and/or contracts with MoD? Are that sort of info not often expressed or publicized by MoD or Russian military or govt individuals?


                              I suppose the question I'm asking is when can people like Rogozin and their words be trusted or taken seriously, if ever, and on what sort of matters or projects (air, naval, etc, or never?)

                              Comment

                              • sepheronx
                                Senior Member
                                • Jun 2015
                                • 320

                                When the jets actually come out. Its slated for 12 by 2020, and these are the batches to be used/tested by RuAF. Since the test units seem to be flying as intended and haven't heard of anything else, there were "rumors" they may get some early. Outside of that, rest is a wait and see. Far too many people with their "expert" opinion on the matter without much of anything in evidence but "speculations".

                                Like Su-35 and the initial introduction of PAK FA, we will have to be patient. I loved how people on MP.net back in the day (pro Americans) just didn't think the jet existed, till one day it flew. Well, they replaced one BS theory for another. Doesn't help though when people like Rogozin on the other side throws his claims around too.

                                Comment

                                • TR1
                                  TR1
                                  http://tiny.cc/tp8kd
                                  • Oct 2010
                                  • 9826

                                  Blitzo: We get official contracts, occasionally even weirdly detailed stuff pops up re. timelines and purchases made by specific enterprises towards the completion of a larger project. That is the best way to judge the timeliness of a project.

                                  Rogozin is a loudmouth always. Others you have to pick and chose. Zelin was saying T-50 would enter service <5 years after first flight, I doubt Sukhoi EVERY promised such a deadline to the VKS behind closed doors.
                                  Works well for constant disinformation though.

                                  From "Army-2017":




                                  sigpic

                                  Comment

                                  • Marcellogo
                                    Rank 5 Registered User
                                    • Jun 2014
                                    • 1840

                                    Yes, also given that "entering service" in russian development and procurement practise means something deeply different from what it means in the west.

                                    I have said it earlier in the thread but evidently repetita juvant: the same Su-35S, despite his name, despite the fact that the first contracted batch of 48 has been fully consigned to VKS and a second one is ongoing, despite having been exported to China and above all despite having been used more than two years to beat the crap out of Isis and other assorted Salafi scums is still not officially Entered Service.
                                    Last edited by Marcellogo; 22nd August 2017, 12:55.

                                    Comment

                                    • KGB
                                      KGB
                                      Senior Member
                                      • Mar 2016
                                      • 1426

                                      the MiG-29 really doesn't offer anything the Flanker can't do. Yet it doesn't seem to be much cheaper to operate, which makes its existence even more questionable in today's environment.
                                      Then there is MiG-35. I am still unsure how that jet will fit in with the airforce. Still not sure how it fits in.
                                      And according to this guy, its already a failure !

                                      I'm suggesting just that, if Mig-29 would have been designed from day zero with different and more flexible performances in mind, and possibly single engined, it could have offered some real cost savings
                                      Wow does this thread ever attract the bottom of the barrel of the armchair economists and armchair air wing market consultants.

                                      Why oh why do so many western biased commenters have such a beef with the Mig 29/35 ? The very existence of this jet seems to perturb them. They've been heralding the end of this jet before it even made the comeback.

                                      The Mig 29/35 is simply the F-16 of the non US controlled world. Always has been. Always will be.
                                      Last edited by KGB; 22nd August 2017, 16:54.

                                      Comment

                                      • KGB
                                        KGB
                                        Senior Member
                                        • Mar 2016
                                        • 1426

                                        @ TR1

                                        Works well for constant disinformation though.
                                        Military jets, whether its fighter, transport, rotary or anything, are famous for being way late and over budget ect. Happened with the Raptor and the F 35 too. Still happening with the F 35 in fact. And throughout the whole process, air forces and the manufacturer, in the US , EU or Russia, lead the public on about specifics, time tables ect.

                                        To say that the Pak Fa is some special case and that there's a real injustice here , with Cold War 2.0 buzzwords and all, (disinformation) is just nonsense.

                                        Russia must be bombing hospitals intentionally in Syria, because they served up some "disinformation"about when the Pak Fa was supposed to be in service.

                                        Comment

                                        • Sintra
                                          Rank 5 Registered User
                                          • Aug 2007
                                          • 3851

                                          https://sputniknews.com/russia/20170...lane-computer/

                                          Russias fifth-generation fighter jet, formerly known as the Prospective Airborne Complex of Frontline Aviation (PAK FA), or Sukhoi T-50, has officially been named the Su-57. In an interview with Sputnik, aviation expert Viktor Pryadka said that the Su-57 is a computerized multifunctional complex capable of flying on its own.
                                          Each such plane becomes a computer center which is able to decide exactly what type of arms and ammo it needs for a specific combat mission. In the UAV mode, the plane can reach its target much faster with overloads of up to 15 G, while the maximum overload a pilot can endure does not exceed 10 G, said Viktor Pryadka, the CEO of the Avintel Aviation Technologies Alliance.

                                          The T-50 can do 15 G in autonomous mode.
                                          Who is "Viktor Pryadka" and who are "the Avintel Aviation Technologies Alliance"?
                                          Never heard of them, and the only aerospace "Avintel" company that i could found is a French aerospace consulting company.
                                          The chap is claiming that the SU-57 is a optionaly manned combat UCAV... Serious doubts on that one.
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