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SAAB Gripen and Gripen NG thread #4

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    Originally posted by TomcatViP View Post
    Why would you replace 30+ upgraded Hornets with some Rafale. It doesn't make much sense unless we talk about a much upgraded block.
    If Rafale is let in as a favorite as you suggest, it will have to bring-in something radical with its cost.
    Because the Hornets are getting old and will have run out of flight hours in 2030. If the Rafale wins the next eval. it will replace the Hornets no matter how advanced they might be.


    Originally posted by Loke View Post
    On the other hand Rafale sales to India and those ME countries I keep forgetting the names of, may lower Rafale costs somewhat as well.

    On verra.
    Knowing the French they will increase the price. 1st because they're not as desperate for exports anymore and 2nd because they want to punish the Swiss for having chosen the wrong i.e. non-French plane twice in a row.
    How can less be more? It's impossible. More is more.
    Yngwie Malmsteen

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      Originally posted by Loke View Post


      Basically first flight is delayed until the second quarter of 2017 but this is considered "optimization".

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        Originally posted by halloweene View Post
        Beacause it is """vastly more capable""" ?
        With the F-35 becoming operational and cheaper by the year there is really no point in a buyer paying Rafale prices for Rafale level capability.

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          Originally posted by Loke View Post
          True, but if they really want something "vastly more capable" they could go for the F-35, and by the time the Swiss are going to buy the F-35 is most likely cheaper than the Rafale.
          Really? Then why wasn't the F-35 even included? It doesn't look as the Swiss have generic problem with US-made designs.. But they seem to know what the aircraft really costs..

          The notion that the F-35 is cheaper than Rafale is pure myth spread by some individuals who love to compare US flyaway cost for the Pig with export program of Rafales for Qatar, incl. weapons and support for 30 years..

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            Um... take a look at the full export contract price for Rafale (India, Egypt, or Qatar) vs the SK F-35 deal.... the Rafale was more expensive in every one of them.

            "The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."

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              Originally posted by SpudmanWP View Post
              Um... take a look at the full export contract price for Rafale (India, Egypt, or Qatar) vs the SK F-35 deal.... the Rafale was more expensive in every one of them.

              He isn't a real big fan of "facts."

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                Originally posted by SpudmanWP View Post
                Um... take a look at the full export contract price for Rafale (India, Egypt, or Qatar) vs the SK F-35 deal.... the Rafale was more expensive in every one of them.
                And Super Hornet was even more expensive than Rafale.. Yes, that Super Hornet, which is significantly cheaper than the F-35..
                You can continue your tirades using Qatari numbers.. not that they mean anything, but don't get disturbed...

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                  When? Where? Are you talking about MMRCA cost

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                    Originally posted by MSphere View Post
                    that Super Hornet, which is significantly cheaper than the F-35..
                    Not according to FMS sales that have to include everything.. something that budget docs don't have to show (ie no GFE).
                    "The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."

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                      Originally posted by SpudmanWP View Post
                      Not according to FMS sales that have to include everything.. something that budget docs don't have to show (ie no GFE).
                      Quoting your beloved flyaway cost, the FY2013 unit cost of an F/A-18E/F Super Hornet was $60.9 million, or $70.5 million incl. non-recurring and support costs.
                      How is that not cheaper than the F-35?

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                        Why are you quoting old data that does not include everything... like I said already.

                        Funny how when the F-18 is part of an FMS sale the cost goes WAY up but the F-35 does not.....
                        "The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."

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                          Originally posted by hopsalot View Post
                          With the F-35 becoming operational and cheaper by the year there is really no point in a buyer paying Rafale prices for Rafale level capability.
                          Wrong; India just did....

                          When will fanboys realize that there is much more to purchasing a fighter than just the technical specs?

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                            i suspect India was threatened into buying those rafale, Parrikar certainly didnt want them but was ordered to defend the purchase

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                              Originally posted by obligatory View Post
                              i suspect India was threatened into buying those rafale, Parrikar certainly didnt want them but was ordered to defend the purchase
                              What do you mean threatened?

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                                To demonstrate to clients and potential such that the system is safe, Saab has chosen to get it approved in accordance with the high demands placed on civilian aircraft.

                                - We qualify fully to a civilian level. Civilian aircraft have a higher security. There are more people in the aircraft and the lack of ejection seats. Our avionics system is a very strong selling point for us and then want to prove the robustness of the system, says Sebastian Carlsson.

                                So the decision should not be interpreted to mean that there is a problem?

                                - No the opposite. We would have been able to fly, but we choose not to do it because it is not optimal for the application.
                                Google translated from: http://www.corren.se/nyheter/linkopi...om4394112.aspx

                                Are other fighter a/c having "civilian" certification?

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                                  We responded to Finland's RfI, which actually was more like a request for proposals [RfP], yesterday, and we will now wait for their response," Ahlqvist said, adding that the company is pitching the E/F model aircraft for this particular requirement. Finland formally launched its HX project to replace the air force's 55 F/A-18C and seven F/A-18D Hornets in October 2015, with RfIs being issued to BAE Systems for the Eurofighter Typhoon; to Boeing for the F/A-18 Hornet and F-15 Eagle; to Dassault for the Rafale; to Lockheed Martin for the F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) and F-16 Fighting Falcon; and to Saab for the Gripen. A formal RfP is due in the first quarter of 2018, with a contract award following in 2021.

                                  In terms of further near-term opportunities, Ahlqvist said that in Europe leasing discussions with Slovakia for the C/D are entering into their final phase, while Belgium (E/F), Bulgaria (C/D), and Croatia (C/D) are all expected to issue RfPs in the next six months. Switzerland (E/F) remains a target market despite a previous agreement having been rejected in a referendum in May 2014, he added, noting that, "We didn't lose in Switzerland, we just didn't win."

                                  In Africa, Ahlqvist said that Botswana (C/D) is in early discussions with the Swedish government, and that progress has been "positive". In Asia, Saab has responded to an Indonesian (C/D) request, and to India (E/F) also.
                                  Read more: http://www.janes.com/article/65721/s...cts-for-gripen

                                  It will be interesting to see how these pan out!

                                  Also interesting to note the phrase "responded to and Indonesian RFP" -- I thought they had decided to go for Su-35 already?

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                                    Originally posted by QuantumFX View Post
                                    What do you mean threatened?
                                    in the same vein as with poland, there might well be things india want from france that is worth more than 8 billion.

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                                      One forget the cost of customization and offsets. Each deal covers a specific scope and are well beyhond the price of the aircraft.

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                                        Originally posted by Loke View Post
                                        Wrong; India just did....

                                        When will fanboys realize that there is much more to purchasing a fighter than just the technical specs?
                                        India has never formally been offered the F-35...

                                        There have been some preliminary discussions, etc, but that is all. (that is true of essentially all recent 4th generation fighter buys.... Kuwait, Qatar, Saudi, Egypt, India, Bahrain... )

                                        Comment


                                          Originally posted by Loke View Post
                                          Google translated from: http://www.corren.se/nyheter/linkopi...om4394112.aspx

                                          Are other fighter a/c having "civilian" certification?
                                          I don't buy it for a second. They are delaying the start of flight testing by ~6 months even though they claim they are confident in the system? Time is money... if they were really sure the plane would perform as intended they would start testing on schedule and obtain the civilian certification somewhere down the road.

                                          Given the flight control system related crashes they had in the original Gripen program I can't blame them for being cautious, but a delay is a delay.

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