Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

SAAB Gripen and Gripen NG thread #4

Collapse
X
Collapse
Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • Mercurius
    Cantabrigiensis
    • Sep 2007
    • 1376

    I take your point, Obligatory. To borrow a useful phrase from John Kerry, JSR seems to be living in a 'parallel universe'.

    He cannot tell the difference between a propaganda service owned by the Russian government and an open-source intelligence organisation.

    He thinks that he knows more about EW than the textbooks, trade journals, and technical papers on the subject of internal versus pod-mounted EW systems. (Perhaps he should have attended this year's European EW conference, and told the presenter of a paper on internal versus pod-mounted EW systems that Sukhoi had come up with a definitive answer that has somehow eluded the world's EW industry, and that the speaker and his audience were wasting their time.)

    He pronounces a missile developed in the 2000s as being based on obsolete concepts, and sees a Russian missile developed in the 1980s as being somehow superior. Yet the basic concept of the R-77 is similar to that of AMRAAM, a US missile based on technology-demonstration missile programmes of the late 1970s.

    'Ignore' is perhaps the best policy, but I have some concern that newcomers to this forum might take JSR's ramblings as being reliable information.
    Mercurius Cantabrigiensis

    Comment

    • Starfish Prime
      Senior Member
      • Aug 2016
      • 949

      Originally posted by Mercurius View Post
      Seriously? You are citing SPUTNIK as a source? I would not trust Sputnik to tell me the weather conditions outside their office, let alone anything about defence.

      We do not know the maximum range of Meteor, but the rival FMRAAM design offered by Raytheon had a range of 150 km.
      The only official statement is '3x no escape zone of AMRAAM C-5'.

      Comment

      • garryA
        Rank 5 Registered User
        • Dec 2015
        • 1120

        Originally posted by Mercurius View Post
        .

        'Ignore' is perhaps the best policy, but I have some concern that newcomers to this forum might take JSR's ramblings as being reliable information.
        I totally get this man

        Comment

        • MadRat
          Rank 5 Registered User
          • Aug 2006
          • 5033

          With all your new found spare time, Mercurius, we don't want to see a JSR run your patience out or you off
          Go Huskers!

          Comment

          • Mercurius
            Cantabrigiensis
            • Sep 2007
            • 1376

            As many a retired person can testify, retirement does not bring boundless spare time. One's time seems to fill up with tasks, and the retiree is left wondering how he ever managed to fit into each busy day the time needed to perform work for an employer. However, last week has demonstrated the truth of the idea that the there are some jobs that you cannot really retire from. Thanks to Mr Putin and the Syria situation, I am back in business - at least in the short term.
            Mercurius Cantabrigiensis

            Comment

            • JSR
              JSR
              Rank 5 Registered User
              • Aug 2011
              • 4978

              Originally posted by Mercurius View Post
              I take your point, Obligatory. To borrow a useful phrase from John Kerry, JSR seems to be living in a 'parallel universe'.
              this quality of US politician. instead of focusing on his own country issues he is wasting his limited time on a faraway dead horse.

              http://www.reuters.com/article/us-uk...-idUSKCN11S059
              Biden said he has spent two to three hours a week on the phone with Ukrainian leaders since the crisis began, urging them to persist with reforms
              He cannot tell the difference between a propaganda service owned by the Russian government and an open-source intelligence organisation.
              what is so intelligent. state organzations are feed bay actual data from state enterprizes for exportable product.
              He thinks that he knows more about EW than the textbooks, trade journals, and technical papers on the subject of internal versus pod-mounted EW systems. (Perhaps he should have attended this year's European EW conference, and told the presenter of a paper on internal versus pod-mounted EW systems that Sukhoi had come up with a definitive answer that has somehow eluded the world's EW industry, and that the speaker and his audience were wasting their time.)
              millions of people read the same text books but only few can built the actual stuff that competitively works.
              He pronounces a missile developed in the 2000s as being based on obsolete concepts, and sees a Russian missile developed in the 1980s as being somehow superior. Yet the basic concept of the R-77 is similar to that of AMRAAM, a US missile based on technology-demonstration missile programmes of the late 1970s.
              Flanker and Fulcrum is also based on 1970s technology but updated with 21st century manufacturing, materials ,electronics, software intelligence that's why they can operate round the clock operations with diverse weopons from Arctic to Deserts.

              Comment

              • stealthflanker
                Rank 5 Registered User
                • Sep 2015
                • 1016

                The PS-05 brochure is very informative. Except that "X" distance.

                Comment

                • Mercurius
                  Cantabrigiensis
                  • Sep 2007
                  • 1376

                  Click image for larger version

Name:	wiring.jpg
Views:	1
Size:	64.1 KB
ID:	3670290


                  Since JSR is so convinced that Meteor is out of date, he might be interested to get a glimpse of the sort of technology that went into the R-77 missile.

                  The photo shown above is a closeup view of part of the seeker used in the RVV-AE version of the R-77. Observe the use of traditional 'looms' of electrical wiring, held in shape by loops of high-technology string. Back in the early/mid 1960s I learned how to make this sort of cable loom, but instead of string we used fine black nylon cord. Nothing very high-tech here, I'm afraid. The brochure on the R-77 seeker shows similar construction methods.

                  Note also the presence of old-style discrete components - a transistor and some resistors - on the small circuit board at the right-hand side of the photo. These are far from state-of-the-art electronics.

                  That is not to say that the seeker of the R-77 does not incorporate high-technology digital electronics, but according to the seeker's designer, some of the integrated circuits were imported from the USA. The current production version may now use the equivalent Russian components, but the seeker originally used digital signal processor chips from Motorola and Texas Instruments.
                  Mercurius Cantabrigiensis

                  Comment

                  • Starfish Prime
                    Senior Member
                    • Aug 2016
                    • 949

                    OMG. That looks like high school CDT workshop.

                    Comment

                    • JSR
                      JSR
                      Rank 5 Registered User
                      • Aug 2011
                      • 4978

                      Originally posted by Mercurius View Post
                      [ATTACH=CONFIG]248433[/ATTACH]


                      Since JSR is so convinced that Meteor is out of date, he might be interested to get a glimpse of the sort of technology that went into the R-77 missile.

                      The photo shown above is a closeup view of part of the seeker used in the RVV-AE version of the R-77. Observe the use of traditional 'looms' of electrical wiring, held in shape by loops of high-technology string. Back in the early/mid 1960s I learned how to make this sort of cable loom, but instead of string we used fine black nylon cord. Nothing very high-tech here, I'm afraid. The brochure on the R-77 seeker shows similar construction methods.

                      Note also the presence of old-style discrete components - a transistor and some resistors - on the small circuit board at the right-hand side of the photo. These are far from state-of-the-art electronics.

                      That is not to say that the seeker of the R-77 does not incorporate high-technology digital electronics, but according to the seeker's designer, some of the integrated circuits were imported from the USA. The current production version may now use the equivalent Russian components, but the seeker originally used digital signal processor chips from Motorola and Texas Instruments.
                      That's what i expected from you showing pics of three decades old construction methods. It is understood that Soviet system was behind in electronics but that is not new Russian system of industrial implementation.

                      Comment

                      • Mercurius
                        Cantabrigiensis
                        • Sep 2007
                        • 1376

                        Well, I am glad that I met your expectations!

                        How could I show other than "three decades old construction methods"? That is when the R-77 was developed. What I have done is to show the hardware than R-77 customers were getting until recently. According to the photographer, that photo was taken in 2007. The seeker of the new R-77M will doubtless use more modern technology, but I do not think it has been exhibited.

                        You dismissed a Western missile developed from 2002 onwards as being based on outdated concepts, but offered no evidence to back up this claim. However, the new range of Agat seekers first shown in 2011 (so developed at the same time as the Meteor seeker) variously featured string-tied wiring looms and discrete components, albeit on a lesser scale than seen on the R-77 seeker. The "new Russian system of industrial implementation" obviously had some way to go...
                        Mercurius Cantabrigiensis

                        Comment

                        • Tony
                          Rank 5 Registered User
                          • Jan 2000
                          • 546

                          Originally posted by Mercurius View Post
                          The "new Russian system of industrial implementation" obviously had some way to go...
                          Like taking candy from a baby Mercurius.....glad you are enjoying your retirement but you are flogging a dead horse here!

                          You do know that JSR (otherwise known in his former avatars as Star49 or H-177) is not actually Russian and he likes to wind people up by making outrageous remarks he knows will evoke a reaction! (did you get no love when you were growing up? Hopefully things have got a lot better?)

                          .....a good side benefit is that out of people correcting him there is often a lot of useful information obtained by people trying to show him the correct information that benefits both us and him I hope ;-) ......not that he'll ever admit it as his defence mechanism from a cruel and callous world is never to say he is wrong when caught red-handed!
                          Last edited by Tony; 23rd September 2016, 23:00.
                          Stand up for what you believe in even if you are standing alone...Sophie Scholl (9 May 1921 - 22 February 1943)

                          Comment

                          • Mercurius
                            Cantabrigiensis
                            • Sep 2007
                            • 1376

                            Originally posted by Tony View Post
                            Like taking candy from a baby Mercurius.....glad you are enjoying your retirement but you are flogging a dead horse here!
                            Alas, that retirement lasted for little more than three months. It was nice while it lasted...



                            Originally posted by Tony View Post
                            his defence mechanism from a cruel and callous world is never to say he is wrong when caught red-handed!
                            One of his frequent defence mechanisms is to respond with a total non sequitur. For example, when I suggest that a presentation at a recent EW conference showed that he was wrong re pods versus internal EW installations, his response was:

                            "millions of people read the same text books but only few can built the actual stuff that competitively works."

                            It is a bit like talking to a chatbot! You get responses, but no answers.

                            Still, we can always hope that now that I have shown R-77 technology, JSR will produce photos, diagrams, or other evidence to back up his claim that Meteor is based on an out of date concept.
                            Mercurius Cantabrigiensis

                            Comment

                            • JSR
                              JSR
                              Rank 5 Registered User
                              • Aug 2011
                              • 4978

                              Originally posted by Mercurius View Post
                              Well, I am glad that I met your expectations!

                              How could I show other than "three decades old construction methods"? That is when the R-77 was developed. What I have done is to show the hardware than R-77 customers were getting until recently. According to the photographer, that photo was taken in 2007. The seeker of the new R-77M will doubtless use more modern technology, but I do not think it has been exhibited.

                              You dismissed a Western missile developed from 2002 onwards as being based on outdated concepts, but offered no evidence to back up this claim. However, the new range of Agat seekers first shown in 2011 (so developed at the same time as the Meteor seeker) variously featured string-tied wiring looms and discrete components, albeit on a lesser scale than seen on the R-77 seeker. The "new Russian system of industrial implementation" obviously had some way to go...
                              You already know export customers get downgraded stuff.t that is several years behind . the new k77m comes with AESA radar with over 40mile seeker range that was announced in 2013 with manufacturing in 2013.

                              Comment

                              • Mercurius
                                Cantabrigiensis
                                • Sep 2007
                                • 1376

                                The common approach is that export customers get missiles in which some of the subsystems are simplified and less sophisticated than those of the Russian variant, but use the same technology.

                                I know the new seeker you are talking about, and have seen a photograph of it. It was developed on a similar timescale to that of the Meteor seeker.
                                Mercurius Cantabrigiensis

                                Comment

                                • Loke
                                  Rank 5 Registered User
                                  • Jun 2008
                                  • 3302

                                  Somebody asked in a PM about some of the capabilities of the Gripen E; since others may have the same question I decided to re-post some older articles:

                                  The Raven ES-05 active, electronically scanned array radar (AESA), developed by the company's Edinburgh unit, will be the first production AESA to be mounted on a repositioner, a rotating mount that gives the radar a 100-deg. field of view around the nose. The Skyward-G infrared search and track (IRST) system (from Nebbiano, Italy) is based on experience with the Eurofighter Typhoon's Pirate IRST and Selex-developed land- and sea-based IRSTs. The fighter also has a new identification friend-or-foe (IFF) system with three electronically steerable antenna arrays, which matches the radar's range and field of view.

                                  The three main sensors will cue one another automatically to display to pilots a fused picture of airspace around the fighter; it will also be fused with the JAS's new electronic-warfare system. Finally, sensor data can be shared between Gripens in a flight via data link.

                                  The IRST is capable of detecting low-RCS targets at distances compatible with a beyond-visual-range missile launch, Mason says. We have seen them, he responds when asked if Selex IRSTs have tracked low-RCS targets. We are looking at very small delta-Ts [temperature differences between the target and the background]. Some infrared absorbent paints cause more friction than standard surfaces, and that causes kinetic heating that the IRST will pick up. Skyward-G does not depend on a supersonic targetskin heating at 300-400 knots is significantand detects heat radiating through the aircraft's skin from the engine, as well as skin friction and the exhaust plume.

                                  The IRST uses a long-wave focal plane array sensor (a dual-band system, adding mid-wave capability, is a potential upgrade) with three fields of view. In its long-range search mode, the system is an IR telescope with a fast-moving scanning mirror (located in a transparent dome in front of the windshield) and step-scans through its search sector. It also has a single-target track mode, and in wide-field mode it provides a night-vision image on the head-up display. As a passive system, IRST does not have inherent range data, but it can perform kinetic rangingthe aircraft performs a weaving maneuver and the range is determined by the change in azimuth angle to the targetor the IRSTs on two aircraft can triangulate the target over the TAU-Link.

                                  IRST hardwarethe optics, detector and processorhas been improved since the development of Pirate started, but (according to Mason and other industry sources) the most important change has been the development of algorithms, based on operational experience and the analysis of real-world imagery, that look at IR signatures in detail, including variations of color and brightness within the target, in order to filter out false alarms caused by everything from birds to barbecue grills.

                                  The IRST can give the radar a very accurate azimuth and elevation to the target, which allows it to focus its energy and increase the probability of achieving detection and track on a low-RCS target, Mason says. The AESA provides virtually instantaneous beam-steering within its 70-deg. scan, but the repositioner is slower. One concept to be demonstrated will be the use of two Gripen radars and the TAU-Link to provide a wide-angle picture to both targets.

                                  The new IFF is designed to provide low-latency coverage over the radar's entire field of view and to its maximum range, and is independent of the radar. That approach has been selected to furnish the best possible information on cooperating targets (such as friendlies and commercial traffic), allowing the IRST and radar to concentrate on potentially hostile aircraft.
                                  http://aviationweek.com/awin/gripen-...th-performance


                                  As a passive sensor, it emits no signals and is therefore undetectable as it scans for targets. Once a target is acquired, the IRST can continue to track it whilst undetected, waiting until the last possible moment to switch to an active (but detectable) sensor such as the AESA radar. With lock on after launch (LOAL) technology, the IRST can even be used to guide a missile toward the target without using any active sensors at all, letting the missile seeker conduct terminal guidance to the target.
                                  In addition to the on board EW and self-defence suite, the Gripen will also be the first aircraft to offer the new BriteCloud off-board active decoy from Selex. BriteCloud is a self-contained Digital RF Memory (DRFM) jammer for * fighters, and was launched by Selex on 6 November 2013. Saab will offer BriteCloud as an electronic warfare option on all versions of Gripen.

                                  BriteCloud is specifically aimed at defeating modern tracking systems, both ground-based and air-based. Its DRFM technology is able to defeat even contemporary chaff discrimination techniques, effectively creating a convincing false target that allows a wide range of threat systems to be countered.
                                  http://saab.com/region/india/about-s...is-the-future/

                                  Saab introduces "Wide Spectrum Combat" (WISCOM) to handle future (VLO) threats:

                                  * Silent swarm ingress
                                  * IRST and passive AESA
                                  * Random AESA emissions
                                  * Beamed datalinks
                                  * Long range Meteor missiles
                                  http://documents.mx/documents/the-gr...onference.html

                                  AFAIK Gripen is the first 4.5 gen fighter with "beamed" (directonal) datalinks(?)

                                  Comment

                                  • Loke
                                    Rank 5 Registered User
                                    • Jun 2008
                                    • 3302

                                    Slovakia might buy, rather than lease, a fleet of Gripen fighter jets from Sweden's Saab or might choose a different supplier, Defense Minister Peter Gajdos said on Wednesday.

                                    The four-party government led by Prime Minister Robert Fico, re-elected for a second consecutive term in March, had been in talks with Saab on the lease of Gripens to replace Slovakia's outdated Russian Mig-29 fighter jets.

                                    "The government extended my mandate to negotiate on the lease or purchase ... and also untied my hands to negotiate with other states in order to best use our resources in terms of price and securing Slovakia's defense," Gajdos said.

                                    Saab was still Slovakia's first choice, he said.
                                    Read more: http://www.reuters.com/article/us-sl...-idUSKCN11Y1K0

                                    Comment

                                    • Loke
                                      Rank 5 Registered User
                                      • Jun 2008
                                      • 3302

                                      ADAS 2016: Saab targets Gripen at Philippines

                                      Saab is to open an office in Manila by the end of 2016 to support the company's campaign to sell its JAS 39 Gripen fighter aircraft to the Philippine Air Force (PAF), an official from the Swedish company told I HS Jane's on 28 September.

                                      Speaking on the opening day of the Asian Defence and Security 2016 (ADAS 2016) exhibition in Manila, Carl-Erik Leek, Saab's executive vice-president in the Asia Pacific, said the new office would be the centre of the company's marketing activities in the country.

                                      At present, these are undertaken from Saab's regional headquarters in Thailand, although the company does not currently have a major presence, in terms of previous defence sales, in the Philippine market.

                                      The new office will also be supported by the Swedish government's intention, announced in December 2015, to open an embassy in Manila to support growth in bilateral trade and investment. Both Saab's office and the new embassy are expected to be operational by November.

                                      Leek, who will head up the new Manila office, said Saab's primary target in the Philippines is the PAF's requirement - outlined in the service's modernisation programme, Flight Plan 2028 - for 12 multirole combat aircraft.
                                      http://www.janes.com/article/64159/a...at-philippines

                                      Comment

                                      • Loke
                                        Rank 5 Registered User
                                        • Jun 2008
                                        • 3302

                                        From the parent base in Caslav morning starts five Gripen and heads to the Far Iceland. In the framework of the NATO mission will be Czech pilots until November to protect the airspace of Iceland and two hundred kilometers belt around him. It is the third deployment of Czech pilots in Iceland in the past three years.
                                        Google translated from: http://zpravy.idnes.cz/gripeny-miri-...0_zpr_nato_inc

                                        Comment

                                        • Loke
                                          Rank 5 Registered User
                                          • Jun 2008
                                          • 3302

                                          Gripen has landed on highway five

                                          The exercise Baana 16 began this weekend and road base also has other equipment from the Air Force landed. On Wednesday, the exercise also had Nordic elements when two Swedish Jas Gripen fighters took land in Lusi.

                                          From a pilot's point of view, it is in many ways different to land on a country road, compared with a conventional airbase: runway is usually a little narrower, worse illuminated, it is not normal markings and barriers at the side of the track is higher.

                                          - It is a significant part of the training that each pilot can act on such a base on the night or day, says Lindstrom.
                                          Swedish Gripen practicing operating from a road, together with Finnish Hornets in Lusi, Finland (https://www.google.no/maps/place/192...3!4d26.0740173)

                                          Google translated from: http://online.vasabladet.fi/Artikel/Visa/116871

                                          Comment

                                          Unconfigured Ad Widget

                                          Collapse

                                           

                                          Working...
                                          X