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SAAB Gripen and Gripen NG thread #4

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  • Spitfire9
    Rank 5 Registered User
    • Jul 2008
    • 2834

    Correction to my previous post regarding Bulgaria possibly leasing Gripen C:

    Sweden has said it will no longer lease Gripens from its air force inventory, so Saab has begun production of new JAS 39C/Ds, initially in anticipation of an order from Slovakia. The company hopes a Slovakian deal will encourage Bulgaria and Croatia to acquire Gripens and share support.
    The article also says: 'Bulgaria is looking for up to 19 aircraft in a procurement expected to be worth around $500 million.' I wonder how many new Gripen C/D + support + spares can be procured with such a small budget.
    Sum ergo cogito

    Comment

    • Tryggve
      Rank 5 Registered User
      • Sep 2013
      • 15

      I havent seen anything about this in this thread, so I thought that it could be worth mentioning.

      Last September the Swedish minister of Defence (Peter Hultqvist) said that no more Gripens belonging to the Swedish Air Force would be lent out or leased to export customers. The Swedish Air Force needs all airframes themselves. This is also the opinion of the commander of the Swedish armed forces, Michael Bydn.

      Hultqvist basically says in the interview that it is up to Saab to find a solution if thay want to offer Gripens to lend Brazil before they can get deliveries of the new aircrafts.

      (In Swedish)
      http://www.metro.se/nyheter/hultqvis...tj1QhAVPffyrw/

      EDIT: and I see now that this was just mentioned by Spitfire9 in the post above.

      Comment

      • Spitfire9
        Rank 5 Registered User
        • Jul 2008
        • 2834

        Originally posted by Tryggve View Post
        I haven’t seen anything about this in this thread, so I thought that it could be worth mentioning.

        Last September the Swedish minister of Defence (Peter Hultqvist) said that no more Gripens belonging to the Swedish Air Force would be lent out or leased to export customers. The Swedish Air Force needs all airframes themselves. This is also the opinion of the commander of the Swedish armed forces, Michael Bydn.

        Hultqvist basically says in the interview that it is up to Saab to find a solution if thay want to offer Gripens to lend Brazil before they can get deliveries of the new aircrafts.

        (In Swedish)
        http://www.metro.se/nyheter/hultqvis...tj1QhAVPffyrw/

        EDIT: and I see now that this was just mentioned by Spitfire9 in the post above.
        Does that mean SAAB will have to build new C/D aircraft to lend to Brazil until Gripen E can be supplied? They could buy some back from South Africa, couldn't they? Perhaps they are already talking to SA about that in view of the reported problems with their air force's finances.
        Sum ergo cogito

        Comment

        • swerve
          Rank 5 Registered User
          • Jun 2005
          • 13610

          Can anyone provide a reliable & complete breakdown of Gripen stocks? How many of which model in existence & who owns them.
          Juris praecepta sunt haec: honeste vivere, alterum non laedere, suum cuique tribuere.
          Justinian

          Comment

          • Spitfire9
            Rank 5 Registered User
            • Jul 2008
            • 2834

            Originally posted by swerve View Post
            Can anyone provide a reliable & complete breakdown of Gripen stocks? How many of which model in existence & who owns them.
            Someone did give an almost complete breakdown not so long ago (2 or 3 months ago?), probably in this thread.
            Sum ergo cogito

            Comment

            • maurobaggio
              Rank 5 Registered User
              • Jul 2008
              • 521

              Originally posted by Loke View Post
              What you seem to ignore is that Sweden needed a partner to cover the Gripen E development cost; Switzerland decided before Brazil and was therefore going to be that partner; now it's Brazil instead. Being a "partner" has some advantages, however also one disadvantage, which is that one is expected to cover some R&D costs. Somewhat similar to what the F-35 partners are doing.

              In addition: I don't think Saab uses the concept "LRIP" however it it seems clear that, just like for F-35 the first 100 or so Gripen E will be more expensive than the next 100. Thus one should expect future customers to pay a lower price than what Switzerland would have paid for those very-early productions units (just like those countries who bought into early F-35 LRIP units paid a much higher price than those that ordered later).
              This is a good explanation about the contract with Brazil had been raised to U$ 5.4 billion in the day of the signature. After all at one day before it had been quoted at $ 4.5 billion since 2009.

              However in the case of Brazil the contract were US$ 4.5 billions, it is possible to observe in Bloomberg source, however at contract was signing the value has been corrected to $ 5.4 billion since the same would be outdated at the 2009.

              http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-0...ct-gripen.html

              In fact I do not know if the value of the contract Brazil $ 5.4 billion has been already included the cost of from funding this.

              On the total value of the Switzerland contract that was voted in Switzerland: US $ 3.233 billion


              1.Comparative Table Brazil / Switzerland

              Type Number of Gripen NG Amount of Contract (Billions) Unit Cost (millions)
              Brazil Gripen E/F 36 Us$ 5.4 US$ 150
              Switzerland Gripen E 22 US$ 3.157 US$ 143
              By the same unit cost from Switzerland the Brazil would have enclosed in its contract:
              • a new production line that will be installed in Brazil
              • development of the new Gripen F in Brazil
              • financial resources to keep the production line in Brazil with rate of the 3 aircraft's per year for five years


              If Brazil and Switzerland were partners in the development of the Gripen E, the big question should this: who got the injury of the departure from Switzerland with its US $ 3.233 billions, as well as the return of the contract to the value of $ 4.5 billions with Brazil after threats of investigations by the Justice of Brazil?

              So if indeed Brazil has been partner of the Gripen E program this could be such proof that perfect partner exist, since this will puts the money and it does not participate in the decisions of the Gripen E, and also leaving all the hard work for Sweden.

              Comment

              • Ozair
                Rank 5 Registered User
                • Oct 2015
                • 822

                Originally posted by Loke View Post
                Assumptions, assumptions...
                Only in that I am taking the word of rcolistete posted here, http://forum.keypublishing.com/showt...read-3/page100

                Originally posted by rcolistete View Post
                The Raven ES-05 AESA radar is not ready. Only in 2021 onwards it will have all air-to-air and then (2023-2026) air-to-surface modes operational.

                I talked to a Saab enginner in LAAD 2015 (April, Rio de Janeiro), stating that this radar will only have all modes completed in the first half of next decade.
                Based on that info, I would not classify the Gripen NG as full multi-role until A2G radar modes are operational.

                Comment

                • Ad Sumus
                  Rank 5 Registered User
                  • Sep 2012
                  • 6

                  Originally posted by maurobaggio View Post
                  If Brazil and Switzerland were partners in the development of the Gripen E, the big question should this: who got the injury of the departure from Switzerland with its US $ 3.233 billions, as well as the return of the contract to the value of $ 4.5 billions with Brazil after threats of investigations by the Justice of Brazil?
                  Mauro, the contract was signed in Swedish Kronor and at the time of signature was equivalent to USD 5.4 billion. In the following months the dollar gained value in comparison to both the Swedidh and Brazilian currency. The only thing that changed was the exchange rate, the total value of the contract did not change. And you kow that.

                  Comment

                  • Loke
                    Rank 5 Registered User
                    • Jun 2008
                    • 3302

                    The Swedish Air Force (Flygvapnet) is putting new life into a war-time strategy developed during the Cold War: fighter jet operations from road strips. There is a difference: the armed forces have got to do the same job with less personnel.
                    The redefined concept will see the Gripen serviced, (re)armed and (re)fueled by 6 personnel on a forward operating location, using only two modified vans with equipment per jet plus a fuel truck travelling between several aircraft and a fuel depot.
                    Read more: http://airheadsfly.com/2016/03/31/sw...-jet-strategy/

                    Comment

                    • Loke
                      Rank 5 Registered User
                      • Jun 2008
                      • 3302

                      Speaking at the FIDAE Airshow, company official Haim J (Rafael requested that his surname is not disclosed for security reasons) said that integration of the Smart Precise Impact Cost Effective (SPICE)-series of precision-guided munitions (PGMs) should begin before the end of the year, ahead of its planned completion date in 2020.

                      According to Haim J, with Rafael's Litening and RecceLite targeting pods and SkyShield electronic warfare system already integrated onto the Gripen, the company will be working to fit its SPICE 2000, SPICE 1000, and SPICE 250 PGMs in accordance with its contract with Saab.

                      Saab signed its USD245 million weapons integration contract for the Gripen E/F with the Brazilian government in April 2015. Besides the Rafael systems, the proposed weapons fit for the 36 aircraft currently under contract includes the Denel-Avibras-Mectron A-Darter short-range air-to-air missile and the Diehl BGT Defence IRIS-T short-range air-to-air missile.
                      Read more: http://www.janes.com/article/59211/f...nGd72g.twitter

                      Gripen E/F will have quite an impressive number of munitions and pods integrated. I didn't know the Skyshield jammer pod already was integrated on the Gripen!?

                      Comment

                      • JakobS
                        Rank 5 Registered User
                        • Aug 2015
                        • 155

                        Here's a great one if you are interested in some great photos from Vidsel!
                        https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?...2208963&type=3

                        Comment

                        • maurobaggio
                          Rank 5 Registered User
                          • Jul 2008
                          • 521

                          Originally posted by Ad Sumus View Post
                          Mauro, the contract was signed in Swedish Kronor and at the time of signature was equivalent to USD 5.4 billion. In the following months the dollar gained value in comparison to both the Swedish and Brazilian currency. The only thing that changed was the exchange rate, the total value of the contract did not change. And you know that.
                          Part 1/2

                          There are several contradictions in this variation of the contract value, once when it has been challenges of the obligation to 100% of ToT ( Transfer of Technology) from Gripen NG to Brazil, this rate of 100% ToT could not be achieved since the main systems are not from Sweden.

                          However when it has been questioned the contract with Brazil the Gripen NG has becomes 100% Swedish, without any foreing part of the others countries where the currency are not the SEK.

                          If the main systems from Gripen NG are not from Sweden, then its cost can not be calculated only in SEK, however if this has been done it because that systems are from Sweden, so Brazil should have been access to 100% of technology of those systems.
                          .
                          After all there are important items that are not from Sweden as F414G engine and AESA radar Raven ES-5, among many others as can be seen in this post below:

                          Originally posted by NotOnlyaSwede View Post
                          The good (Or bad thing, as some want to see it...) is that Saab can source parts from where the customer wants.

                          Here a more up to date picture...
                          Click image for larger version

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                          The important aspect is not what I should be know about it, but the fact that contract has been back to the original amount of the US$ 4.5 billions from 2009.

                          In my humble opinion I think there are several contradiction in this, after all between 2009 to 2016 there are variations in the exchange rate every single day.

                          Comment

                          • Spitfire9
                            Rank 5 Registered User
                            • Jul 2008
                            • 2834

                            Originally posted by maurobaggio View Post
                            Part 1/2

                            There are several contradictions in this variation of the contract value, once when it has been challenges of the obligation to 100% of ToT ( Transfer of Technology) from Gripen NG to Brazil, this rate of 100% ToT could not be achieved since the main systems are not from Sweden.

                            However when it has been questioned the contract with Brazil the Gripen NG has becomes 100% Swedish, without any foreing part of the others countries where the currency are not the SEK.

                            If the main systems from Gripen NG are not from Sweden, then its cost can not be calculated only in SEK, however if this has been done it because that systems are from Sweden, so Brazil should have been access to 100% of technology of those systems.
                            .
                            After all there are important items that are not from Sweden as F414G engine and AESA radar Raven ES-5, among many others as can be seen in this post below:



                            [ATTACH=CONFIG]245047[/ATTACH]

                            The important aspect is not what I should be know about it, but the fact that contract has been back to the original amount of the US$ 4.5 billions from 2009.

                            In my humble opinion I think there are several contradiction in this, after all between 2009 to 2016 there are variations in the exchange rate every single day.
                            Transfer of TOT: SAAB does not own a lot of the technology used in Gripen, so cannot transfer it to Brazil. Does that mean that Brazil will not be able to design and build a fighter in the future? If that is the case, how come SAAB has managed to build Gripen?

                            You say: 'If the main systems from Gripen NG are not from Sweden, then its cost can not be calculated only in SEK...' Do you think that a washing machine designer/manufacturer using a pump from Germany, a motor from Taiwan, glass from China for the door, nuts and bolts from India quotes a price broken down into 4 different currencies? No, the manufacturer quotes a price for the washing machine in 1 currency. Additionally, the manufacturer does not change the price every second because the value of the different currencies it pays for components varies every second.
                            Last edited by Spitfire9; 2nd April 2016, 10:40.
                            Sum ergo cogito

                            Comment

                            • Tryggve
                              Rank 5 Registered User
                              • Sep 2013
                              • 15

                              Originally posted by Spitfire9 View Post
                              Does that mean SAAB will have to build new C/D aircraft to lend to Brazil until Gripen E can be supplied? They could buy some back from South Africa, couldn't they? Perhaps they are already talking to SA about that in view of the reported problems with their air force's finances.
                              Good question. I guess they could buy back some from South Africa if they want to downsize their Gripen fleet. But have the South Africans made any attempts to sell of any of their Gripens?

                              And I guess that Saab could build new airframes and offer Brazil as temporary solution until Gripen Es becomes available. But this would probably be quite costly for Saab unless they can find a buyer for these surplus machines later.

                              I guess its up to Saab and Brazil to really work out a solution. If the contract stipulates that Brazil will have access to Gripens before deliveries of new built Gripen E starts this could be a bit tricky (and costly!) for Saab.

                              Comment

                              • Spitfire9
                                Rank 5 Registered User
                                • Jul 2008
                                • 2834

                                Originally posted by Tryggve View Post
                                Good question. I guess they could buy back some from South Africa if they want to downsize their Gripen fleet. But have the South Africans made any attempts to sell of any of their Gripens?

                                And I guess that Saab could build new airframes and offer Brazil as temporary solution until Gripen Es becomes available. But this would probably be quite costly for Saab unless they can find a buyer for these “surplus” machines later.

                                I guess it’s up to Saab and Brazil to really work out a solution. If the contract stipulates that Brazil will have access to Gripens before deliveries of new built Gripen E starts this could be a bit tricky (and costly!) for Saab.
                                I am sure I read that Gripen C/D production is continuing (in anticipation of an order from Slovakia) so perhaps SAAB is prepared to take the risk of building new C/D aircraft in the expectation that they will be able to place them with a buyer or a lessee. I guess that if they are required to supply Brazil with a small number of Gripen C/D, they are reasonably confident that they will be able to sell/lease them to another customer when they are no longer required by Brazil. I still wonder if they are not talking to South Africa about buying some aircraft back.
                                Sum ergo cogito

                                Comment

                                • Tryggve
                                  Rank 5 Registered User
                                  • Sep 2013
                                  • 15

                                  I guess that this video has been posted on this forum previously, but i guess it can’t hurt to post it again.

                                  Video of Gripen dropping two GBU-12.

                                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6t6PS2iEc24

                                  Comment

                                  • JakobS
                                    Rank 5 Registered User
                                    • Aug 2015
                                    • 155

                                    Yes, variations in different currencies have affected the Gripen's price for Brazil but the main difference in price is due to Brazil wanting to incorporate more Brazilian technique into the cockpit and due to a renegotiated weapons package.

                                    Comment

                                    • Ad Sumus
                                      Rank 5 Registered User
                                      • Sep 2012
                                      • 6

                                      Originally posted by JakobS View Post
                                      Yes, variations in different currencies have affected the Gripen's price for Brazil but the main difference in price is due to Brazil wanting to incorporate more Brazilian technique into the cockpit and due to a renegotiated weapons package.
                                      This is not what Maurobaggio said. He is claiming the value of the contract was reduced AFTER the signature because of possible investigations by Brazilian Justice. And that is simply not true. The only thing that changed after the signature was the exchange rate.

                                      Comment

                                      • maurobaggio
                                        Rank 5 Registered User
                                        • Jul 2008
                                        • 521

                                        Originally posted by Spitfire9 View Post
                                        Transfer of TOT: SAAB does not own a lot of the technology used in Gripen, so cannot transfer it to Brazil. Does that mean that Brazil will not be able to design and build a fighter in the future? If that is the case, how come SAAB has managed to build Gripen?
                                        The Gripen E has been coming from a long list of fighters that has been designed and build in Sweden before this, as : JA 35 Draken, AJ/JA 37 Viggen and JAS 39 Gripen A/B/C/D.

                                        Because of those fighter the Sweden has been accumulated a lot of knowledge to design and build essential items from any modern fighters as ie: engines and radars.

                                        Regarding the Gripen E if the US could have been refused to provide its engine GE F414G, then Volvo Aero from Sweden would be able to produce its new version from RM12 for Gripen E , as well as if the UK could refused to supply the AESA radar Raven ES- 5, the Ericsson company from Sweden could develop an AESA radar for the Gripen E.

                                        As far I Know the Volvo Aero has been working with GE regarding turbine GE F414 since 2000, as well as the Ericsson company has been contracted from Selex to work with AESA Raven ES-5.

                                        In Brazil there are not any companies like Volvo Aero, as well as Ericsson.

                                        If the transfer of technology from Gripen E will be restricted only with Saab company, the best that Brazil could be capable about such new fighter will be designing the fuselage of this.

                                        Therefore Brazil will never be capable to develop and produce independently such future fighter , since this will only be possible if some other countries could develop and produce the engines, as well as its main items from avionics like the radar.

                                        Just to remember: the agreement of the 100% ToT it were between the Government of Sweden and the Government of Brazil as it had been mentioned during the competition. The Saab and Embraer are just two companies that could not elaborate such agreement without the Governments.

                                        http://www.defensenews.com/story/def...deal/74415116/



                                        Originally posted by Spitfire9 View Post
                                        You say: 'If the main systems from Gripen NG are not from Sweden, then its cost can not be calculated only in SEK...' Do you think that a washing machine designer/manufacturer using a pump from Germany, a motor from Taiwan, glass from China for the door, nuts and bolts from India quotes a price broken down into 4 different currencies? No, the manufacturer quotes a price for the washing machine in 1 currency. Additionally, the manufacturer does not change the price every second because the value of the different currencies it pays for components varies every second.
                                        I have never been clever and capable to work or learn about washing machines, then in reason of this my limitation I can't to compare washing machines with Gripen E.

                                        However I do not know if anyone who bought these washing machines could have included this following requirements as: 100% of ToT, it will be able to produce these at home and as well as such license to sale these for their neighbors.

                                        If you know any manufacturer from washing machines that will accept these conditions above, please share it here, and about any manufacturers of washing machines that it has been tacking almost 14 years to produce a prototype either.

                                        Comment

                                        • JSR
                                          JSR
                                          Rank 5 Registered User
                                          • Aug 2011
                                          • 4977

                                          Originally posted by Spitfire9 View Post
                                          Transfer of TOT: SAAB does not own a lot of the technology used in Gripen, so cannot transfer it to Brazil. Does that mean that Brazil will not be able to design and build a fighter in the future? If that is the case, how come SAAB has managed to build Gripen?
                                          .
                                          SAAB managed to build Gripen because major subsystems are economically available. suppose this F414 engine goes out of production when F-18 line stops. US companies are only profitable with big volumes. and same happens to low production volume EJ200 and M88. than there is no chance SAAB can built a fighter economically.
                                          Brazil whole economic system is developed around import dependency. This whole TOT business of Gripen is just to inflate the cost and possible corruption.
                                          http://www.reuters.com/article/embra...-idUSE6N15W01O
                                          Brazil's Embraer taps Rheinmetall for KC-390 training

                                          Comment

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