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SAAB Gripen and Gripen NG thread #4

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  • Spitfire9
    Rank 5 Registered User
    • Jul 2008
    • 2832

    Three times as many of the people polled in an American poll would prefer 1,000 jobs to be created in an American-owned factory in USA rather than 2,000 jobs being created in a Chinese-owned factory in USA. Which would you prefer?
    Last edited by Spitfire9; 24th March 2016, 19:32.
    Sum ergo cogito

    Comment

    • Siddar
      Rank 5 Registered User
      • Feb 2013
      • 263

      Originally posted by swerve View Post
      Not what you've been arguing for. You propose that the USA should stop country A buying something from the USA & selling it to country B, & country B buying stuff from the USA to put into things made in country B. What has that got to do with protecting US jobs?

      You're proposing banning US exports, to 'punish' customers for not buying more. Doh!
      Not really was just informing the poster that support for free trade in US may not be as strong as he thinks it is.

      American public supports free trade even less than I do it seems.

      Comment

      • Siddar
        Rank 5 Registered User
        • Feb 2013
        • 263

        Originally posted by Spitfire9 View Post
        Three times as many of the people polled in an American poll would prefer 1,000 jobs to be created in an American-owned factory in USA rather than 2,000 jobs being created in a Chinese-owned factory in USA. Which would you prefer?
        I would prefer more jobs in general over ownership except for key industries.

        Comment

        • Spitfire9
          Rank 5 Registered User
          • Jul 2008
          • 2832

          Sounds like we agree about some things.
          Sum ergo cogito

          Comment

          • JakobS
            Rank 5 Registered User
            • Aug 2015
            • 155

            So can this thread go back to being serious again?

            Originally posted by swerve View Post
            Sweden has never designed & built every part of a jet fighter. From the J21R onwards, engines have been either imported, or license built with some imported components.
            It's kind of an interesting story, there was a lot of development in the late 1940's and 1950's for a complete Swedish jet engine. However NATO wanted Sweden to scrap the development in order to afford more fighters for the air force, therefore promises were made that NATO-developed engines could be produced under license.

            Comment

            • maurobaggio
              Rank 5 Registered User
              • Jul 2008
              • 521

              Originally posted by Tonnyc View Post
              This isn't for FBW in particular.
              Two is the idea that Brazil is getting the F414 technology. A few individuals insist that Saab swindled Brazil by promising Brazil things that Saab can't possibly accomplish, such as giving Brazil F414 technology. This is delusional. .
              The agreement of 100% ToT ( Transfer of Tecnology) of the Gripen E has been carried out between the Government of Sweden and the Government of Brazil.

              Indeed Saab is only one company as well as the Embraer. Just to inform : Saab can not sell the Gripen without the Government of Sweden has given the authorization for it, much less about any minors technology transfer of the Gripen with any nation without the Government of Sweden has been approval this agreement.

              The agreement comes with a strong technology commitment from Sweden to transfer "everything" that Brazil will need to develop its own next-generation military jets.

              http://www.defensenews.com/story/def...deal/74415116/

              The Saab has never been participated in the production of the F414 from F/A 18E/F or Gripen E as weel the F404 from Gripen C/D , once in Sweden the Volvo company has been directly involved in the development of GE F414 engines as well as in the production of the GE F404.

              The curious fact should be that Volvo had never been offered to the Government of Brazil the opportunity to equip the Gripen NG from Brazil with its development from RM12 engine. it were developing by Volvo for the Gripen NG . This development of the RM12 were canceled after the Government of Sweden has been chosen the F414 from Gripen NG. However this could have been easily explained in function those :


              January 19, 2000
              EVENDALE, OHIO - GE Aircraft Engines (GEAE) and Volvo Aero Corporation of Sweden have reached a long-term agreement under which Volvo will manufacture designated components for GEAE's F414-GE-400 fighter engine.
              The F414 powers the U.S. Navy's F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, mainstay of the Navy's aircraft carrier fleet into the 21st century. GEAE is currently on contract to build 176 F414 engines, but production is anticipated to exceed 2,000 engines over the next 20 to 30 years.
              http://www.geaviation.com/press/mili..._20000119.html

              May 30, 2008
              Volvo Aero has joined with GE to support this development program and the flight and demonstration testing that will continue beyond 2010. Cooperative relationships with both Volvo Aero and airframe manufacturer Saab have led to this milestone and will continue through the Gripen Demonstrator Program and beyond.

              http://www.geaviation.com/press/mili..._20080530.html


              I'm really confused about your post.
              Originally posted by Tonnyc View Post
              This isn't for FBW in particular.
              Two is the idea that Brazil is getting the F414 technology. A few individuals insist that Saab swindled Brazil by promising Brazil things that Saab can't possibly accomplish, such as giving Brazil F414 technology. This is delusional.

              Brazil and Saab will proceed with what's in the contract, not with what's on their delusional minds.
              .
              This part of your post about 'delusional' it has not been directed to the FBW, right?
              In my humble opinion I think is not, since for all the posts I could remember that I have been reading from FBW his seems quite consistent as well as better informed about its issues.


              I really hope that you do not think about your post it has been delusional either, since it would be quite embarrassing for me...

              Comment

              • Loke
                Rank 5 Registered User
                • Jun 2008
                • 3302

                FIDAE 2016: Saab touts Gripen to Latin American fighter market

                Having already sealed a deal with Brazil for 36 Gripen E/F fighters (28 single-seat Gripen Es and eight twin-seat Gripen Fs), Saab is looking to consolidate and expand its Latin American presence with additional sales to other regional operators as they look to recapitalise largely antiquated and increasingly difficult and costly inventories to sustain with more modern and capable types. IHS Jane's Markets Forecast projects a future Latin American requirement of 285 fighter aircraft out to 2025, valued at USD12.5 billion.
                http://www.janes.com/article/59070/f...fighter-market

                285 a/c out to 2025? That's more than what I expected! Anyway, together with Asia this probably explains why Saab is rather optimistic about Gripen's future.

                Comment

                • Siddar
                  Rank 5 Registered User
                  • Feb 2013
                  • 263

                  285 fighter aircraft out to 2025, valued at USD12.5 billion.

                  LM will be selling a lot of used F16s then because 12.5 billion / 285 is about 44 million per aircraft. No western new build aircraft can match that price. So you're looking at secondhand western, Chinese, or Russian planes.

                  Comment

                  • Loke
                    Rank 5 Registered User
                    • Jun 2008
                    • 3302

                    Saab is on-course to complete its new Brazilian manufacturing facility for the Gripen E/F combat aircraft before the end of the year, as it progresses the F-X2 fighter replacement contract that came into effect in late 2015.

                    Speaking to IHS Jane's at the FIDAE Airshow in Santiago on 29 March, the head of the Brazilian Gripen programme Andrew Wilkinson said that the Gripen Design Development Network (GDDN) building with Embraer at Gavio Peixoto will be completed by the end of June and fully equipped in November, ahead of the commencement of domestic production.
                    Read more: http://www.janes.com/article/59111/f...KiooZB.twitter

                    Comment

                    • Loke
                      Rank 5 Registered User
                      • Jun 2008
                      • 3302

                      Swedish aerospace firm Saab reiterated its offer to supply the next generation Gripen-E fighter aircraft to India through the "government-to-government" route and has offered to not only make the aircraft in India but also create the required manufacturing ecosystem in the country as part of the multi-billion dollar project.

                      "We are not saying don't go ahead with Rafale with France. We know that the Indian Air Force has a much bigger requirement than the 36 aircraft being negotiated. Over the next seven years, the IAF will be down to less than 30 squadrons. We are offering the Gripen through the government-to-government route, which is the best process," Saab, air systems vice-president Sudhir Varma said on Tuesday.
                      Full story: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/c...w/51606898.cms

                      Comment

                      • Loke
                        Rank 5 Registered User
                        • Jun 2008
                        • 3302

                        Not much has been published regarding Gripen NG's sensor fusion:

                        “We do that by sensor fusion… using data fusion technology. This covers information coming in from radars, IRST, EW sensors, targeting pods, 3rd party sensors (including air-land-sea) and also information from the weapons,” says the Gripen test pilot who is conducting me around the fighter.
                        http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2011/...VTqbvfrDHLSVk5

                        Comment

                        • Spitfire9
                          Rank 5 Registered User
                          • Jul 2008
                          • 2832

                          Swedish aerospace firm Saab reiterated its offer to supply the next generation Gripen-E fighter aircraft to India through the "government-to-government" route and has offered to not only make the aircraft in India but also create the required manufacturing ecosystem in the country as part of the multi-billion dollar project.

                          Isn't it too late for SAAB to get a Gripen deal with India, given that there is a commitment to Tejas Mk1A and steps are being taken to ramp production up to 16 per annum?

                          Perhaps SAAB are thinking that it might take another 10 years or more for HAL to deliver 100 Mk1A's (that might/might not meet specifications) and that India would like some certainty in aircraft being delivered that do what they are supposed to do when they are supposed to be delivered. I think Gripen E could be rolling off an Indian assembly line at most 5 years after India signed a deal with SAAB.

                          Possibly an angle on MCA as well? Given LCA's track record, India does not appear to be capable of developing and manufacturing a fast jet with any reasonable adherence to time schedule. If India embarked on MCA without the TOT and guidance of a proficient design and production company, what level of certainty would there be that the project did not overshoot deadline by 10 years or more? A Gripen E deal coupled with an MCA design and production partnership (a la FGFA in which India basically would do very little design work) has its attractions.
                          Last edited by Spitfire9; 30th March 2016, 12:14.
                          Sum ergo cogito

                          Comment

                          • Loke
                            Rank 5 Registered User
                            • Jun 2008
                            • 3302

                            This is probably old news to many, but for some reason I have not seen this officially stated regarding IRIS-T until now:


                            Anti-missile capability against incoming A/A
                            and S/A missiles
                            http://www.diehl.com/fileadmin/diehl...urofighter.pdf

                            Gripen and other fighters having the IRIS-T then has one "extra" tool in the toolbox to survive. I wonder how efficient it is?

                            Comment

                            • Loke
                              Rank 5 Registered User
                              • Jun 2008
                              • 3302

                              Originally posted by Spitfire9 View Post
                              Isn't it too late for SAAB to get a Gripen deal with India, given that there is a commitment to Tejas Mk1A and steps are being taken to ramp production up to 16 per annum?
                              I have the impression that the only certainty in India is that nothing is certain...

                              Comment

                              • Vnomad
                                Rank 5 Registered User
                                • May 2011
                                • 2859

                                Originally posted by Spitfire9 View Post
                                Isn't it too late for SAAB to get a Gripen deal with India, given that there is a commitment to Tejas Mk1A and steps are being taken to ramp production up to 16 per annum?
                                That and the fact the IAF doesn't seem interested in a Gripen buy - Making Gripen fighters in India not favoured by IAF. No political pluses from the deal either.

                                Perhaps SAAB are thinking that it might take another 10 years or more for HAL to deliver 100 Mk1A's (that might/might not meet specifications) and that India would like some certainty in aircraft being delivered that do what they are supposed to do when they are supposed to be delivered. I think Gripen E could be rolling off an Indian assembly line at most 5 years after India signed a deal with SAAB.
                                They'd have to build a new assembly line first, with all the requisite tooling. In fact, the main appeal of the F-16 & F-18 is that the equipment at Ft. Worth/St. Louis can be shifted to India significantly reducing the capital costs involved.

                                Possibly an angle on MCA as well? Given LCA's track record, India does not appear to be capable of developing and manufacturing a fast jet with any reasonable adherence to time schedule. If India embarked on MCA without the TOT and guidance of a proficient design and production company, what level of certainty would there be that the project did not overshoot deadline by 10 years or more? A Gripen E deal coupled with an MCA design and production partnership (a la FGFA in which India basically would do very little design work) has its attractions.
                                So.. basically India would be underwriting a Swedish development program. Duplicating the idiocy of the FGFA project. I doubt that plan would get much traction in New Delhi. If it came down to it, it would make much more sense to scrap the MCA entirely and stick to license-building the PAK FA.
                                Last edited by Vnomad; 30th March 2016, 12:53.

                                Comment

                                • Loke
                                  Rank 5 Registered User
                                  • Jun 2008
                                  • 3302

                                  Originally posted by Vnomad View Post
                                  That and the fact the IAF doesn't seem interested in a Gripen buy - Making Gripen fighters in India not favoured by IAF. No political pluses from the deal either.


                                  They'd have to build a new assembly line first, with all the requisite tooling. In fact, the main appeal of the F-16 & F-18 is that the equipment at Ft. Worth/St. Louis can be shifted to India significantly reducing the capital costs involved.


                                  So.. basically India would be underwriting a Swedish development program. Duplicating the idiocy of the FGFA project. I doubt that plan would get much traction in New Delhi. If it came down to it, it would make much more sense to scrap the MCA entirely and stick to license-building the PAK FA.
                                  Indian news sources are very unreliable, in particular quoting "anonymous sources". In any case, we all know what the IAF want; at least 126 Rafale. This they will not get, so they have to come up with a plan B.

                                  LCA mk2 would perhaps be in Gripen NG class; but mk1a seems not.

                                  I agree Gripen in India seems like a long shot, but who would have thought that MMRCA would get cancelled and that in end of March 2016 there is still no agreement to buy 36 Rafale?

                                  Comment

                                  • Spitfire9
                                    Rank 5 Registered User
                                    • Jul 2008
                                    • 2832

                                    Perhaps SAAB are thinking that it might take another 10 years or more for HAL to deliver 100 Mk1A's (that might/might not meet specifications) and that India would like some certainty in aircraft being delivered that do what they are supposed to do when they are supposed to be delivered. I think Gripen E could be rolling off an Indian assembly line at most 5 years after India signed a deal with SAAB.
                                    Originally posted by Vnomad View Post
                                    They'd have to build a new assembly line first, with all the requisite tooling. In fact, the main appeal of the F-16 & F-18 is that the equipment at Ft. Worth/St. Louis can be shifted to India significantly reducing the capital costs involved.
                                    Agreed, makes financial sense for India to buy the F-16 production equipment rather than build new for Gripen. However, there appears to be some resistance voiced to F-16 on the grounds that Pakistan is/has been supplied with F-16. Personally, I don't understand why.

                                    Possibly an angle on MCA as well? Given LCA's track record, India does not appear to be capable of developing and manufacturing a fast jet with any reasonable adherence to time schedule. If India embarked on MCA without the TOT and guidance of a proficient design and production company, what level of certainty would there be that the project did not overshoot deadline by 10 years or more? A Gripen E deal coupled with an MCA design and production partnership (a la FGFA in which India basically would do very little design work) has its attractions.
                                    Originally posted by Vnomad View Post
                                    So.. basically India would be underwriting a Swedish development program. Duplicating the idiocy of the FGFA project. I doubt that plan would get much traction in New Delhi. If it came down to it, it would make much more sense to scrap the MCA entirely and stick to license-building the PAK FA.
                                    I'll retract what I said about India doing very little design work for MCA. What I should have said was that India should only design those parts of MCA where local design resources have the skills and knowledge required to do so effectively (including TOT as available from SAAB, where practical).
                                    Sum ergo cogito

                                    Comment

                                    • Vnomad
                                      Rank 5 Registered User
                                      • May 2011
                                      • 2859

                                      Originally posted by Loke View Post
                                      Indian news sources are very unreliable, in particular quoting "anonymous sources". In any case, we all know what the IAF want; at least 126 Rafale. This they will not get, so they have to come up with a plan B.
                                      True the source isn't reliable, but I wouldn't be surprised if the report, for once, is completely authentic. For better or worse, the IAF (even in previous years) doesn't seem too enthused by the aircraft and I doubt there'd be strong advocacy from a Gripen buy from that quarter. And if its left to the MoD, the F-16 (or even SH) would have a far better chance. Doesn't have the Gripen E's new EW system (would rely on podded solutions) but it would be much cheaper to build locally. And where significant numbers are involved, that would take priority for the govt.

                                      LCA mk2 would perhaps be in Gripen NG class; but mk1a seems not.
                                      It would impinge upon the domestic program. Unlikely to acceptable to a govt on a major indigenization drive.

                                      Comment

                                      • Spitfire9
                                        Rank 5 Registered User
                                        • Jul 2008
                                        • 2832

                                        LCA mk2 would perhaps be in Gripen NG class; but mk1a seems not.
                                        I thought Tejas Mk2 had been shelved because delivery of light fighters is too urgent to wait for Mk2.
                                        Sum ergo cogito

                                        Comment

                                        • Loke
                                          Rank 5 Registered User
                                          • Jun 2008
                                          • 3302

                                          Originally posted by Vnomad View Post
                                          True the source isn't reliable, but I wouldn't be surprised if the report, for once, is completely authentic. For better or worse, the IAF (even in previous years) doesn't seem too enthused by the aircraft and I doubt there'd be strong advocacy from a Gripen buy from that quarter. And if its left to the MoD, the F-16 (or even SH) would have a far better chance. Doesn't have the Gripen E's new EW system (would rely on podded solutions) but it would be much cheaper to build locally. And where significant numbers are involved, that would take priority for the govt.


                                          It would impinge upon the domestic program. Unlikely to acceptable to a govt on a major indigenization drive.
                                          F-16 AFAIK is very unpopular in India due to the fact that it's being used by Pakistan.

                                          When it comes to costs I think they will have to look at the total cost, not just a part of the cost.

                                          Don't forget the SH was competing against Gripen in Brazil -- as you would expect Gripen was found to be significantly cheaper. Brazil is probably a good reference point since it includes both an assembly line and TOT. Also operating costs will be much cheaper. SH is a great platform but it remains a big, twin-engine plane, and is not particularly cheap. There is a reason why it has not scored many exports. If they want to go cheap then Gripen is the way to go. ... Perhaps IAF would not be very happy, but they are in any case not going to be happy with the final solution, that has been pretty clear for a long time, hasn't it.

                                          Comment

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