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SAAB Gripen and Gripen NG thread #4

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  • Loke
    Rank 5 Registered User
    • Jun 2008
    • 3302

    The Swedish Defence Materiel Administration (FMV) has awarded a performance based logistics (PBL) contract to GKN Aerospace to provide support services for the national Armed Forces' JAS 39 Gripen fighter aircraft.

    A follow-on from an initial five year RM12 PBL agreement, the new agreement requires the company to support the operations for JAS 39 Gripen C/D users for a period of four years.

    Additionally, the company will ensure engine availability for every Swedish Air Force mission, as well as for Gripen C/D export customers that includes the Czech Republic, Hungary and Thailand.

    The contract covers the provision for technical product support, maintenance, repair and overhaul, repair development and spare parts supply.
    http://www.airforce-technology.com/n...engine-4827270

    GKN Aerospace bought Volvo Aero in 2012; presumably this will be done by the "old" Volvo Aero in Sweden.

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    • Spitfire9
      Rank 5 Registered User
      • Jul 2008
      • 2832

      Was just listening to the BBC World Service. They were talking about Brazil which is apparently suffering its worst ever depression. By chance I was looking yesterday at some Brazilian Real v Swedish Krona historical exchange rate charts and I saw that the Real in 2016 buys 40% or so less Krona than it did in 2011. With quite a lot of Gripen E structure to be produced in Brazil and with an assembly line in Brazil, I wonder if the cost of Brazilian-sourced Gripen E will turn out to be lower than was expected when SAAB was chosen as supplier for Brazil's new fighter. Certainly lower production and assembly cost measured in $US would make Gripen E more likely to be selected for smaller air forces with tight budgets. If there were sufficient TOT for Embraer to offer the support SAAB offers for countries introducing and operating Gripen, that would further enhance its competitiveness in the world light fighter market in the 2020's.
      Sum ergo cogito

      Comment

      • FBW
        FBW
        Rank 5 Registered User
        • Dec 2011
        • 3295

        Originally posted by Spitfire9 View Post
        With quite a lot of Gripen E structure to be produced in Brazil and with an assembly line in Brazil, I wonder if the cost of Brazilian-sourced Gripen E will turn out to be lower than was expected when SAAB was chosen as supplier for Brazil's new fighter. Certainly lower production and assembly cost measured in $US would make Gripen E more likely to be selected for smaller air forces with tight budgets. If there were sufficient TOT for Embraer to offer the support SAAB offers for countries introducing and operating Gripen, that would further enhance its competitiveness in the world light fighter market in the 2020's.
        It may certainly help with the construction of the assembly facilities for the 15 Brazilian Gripen to be built there. I think it's a bit premature to say it will lower the cost for all Gripen. We are looking several years into the future before Brazilian sourced parts will find their way onto Gripen assembled in Sweden (and into the 2020's before Gripen are constructed in Brazil). It would be hopeful for the Brazilian people and government that they are well on their way to a financial recovery before then.

        Comment

        • Spitfire9
          Rank 5 Registered User
          • Jul 2008
          • 2832

          Originally posted by FBW View Post
          It may certainly help with the construction of the assembly facilities for the 15 Brazilian Gripen to be built there. I think it's a bit premature to say it will lower the cost for all Gripen.
          I was referring to Gripens purchased from the Brazilian assembly line and - if Embraer have the knowhow - to support provided by Embraer. Of course exchange rate movements over 5-10 years cannot be predicted but if country X is interested in a couple of squadrons of Gripen E 10 years from now, it may be that those sourced from Brazil will be substantially cheaper than the same (or almost the same) aircraft sourced from Sweden.
          Sum ergo cogito

          Comment

          • FBW
            FBW
            Rank 5 Registered User
            • Dec 2011
            • 3295

            Originally posted by Spitfire9 View Post
            I was referring to Gripens purchased from the Brazilian assembly line and - if Embraer have the knowhow - to support provided by Embraer. Of course exchange rate movements over 5-10 years cannot be predicted but if country X is interested in a couple of squadrons of Gripen E 10 years from now, it may be that those sourced from Brazil will be substantially cheaper than the same (or almost the same) aircraft sourced from Sweden.
            From my reading of the press releases from Saab and news outlets, there will be final assembly of the last 15 Brazilian Gripen in Brazil. Final assembly of all other Gripen E/F will be in Sweden though with some components sourced from Brazilian industry (at what stage is unclear- post initial Swedish AF contract?). The two seater F will have higher percentage Brazilian sourced content and engineering input, that point has been made clear. It is unclear if follow on orders from other clients would be assembled in a Brazilian facility.

            Comment

            • Loke
              Rank 5 Registered User
              • Jun 2008
              • 3302

              A country as large as Brazil will most likely need more than 36 a/c... I think the Brazilian assembly line will be kept open quite some time to come.

              I would also expect Gripens sold to other countries in Latin America to be assembled in Brazil.

              Comment

              • Loke
                Rank 5 Registered User
                • Jun 2008
                • 3302

                Saab test pilots of the Gripen visited Colombia and conducted a seminar for pilots of the Colombian Air Force . The activity is part of the approaches that has had the Swedish company with the FAC. We talk first hand with Hans Einerth and Marcus Wandt, pilots who visited the country and thoroughly knowledgeable of the aircraft.
                Google translated from: http://www.aviacol.net/n/pilotos-saa...-colombia.html

                Comment

                • Spitfire9
                  Rank 5 Registered User
                  • Jul 2008
                  • 2832

                  Originally posted by FBW View Post
                  From my reading of the press releases from Saab and news outlets, there will be final assembly of the last 15 Brazilian Gripen in Brazil. Final assembly of all other Gripen E/F will be in Sweden though with some components sourced from Brazilian industry (at what stage is unclear- post initial Swedish AF contract?). The two seater F will have higher percentage Brazilian sourced content and engineering input, that point has been made clear. It is unclear if follow on orders from other clients would be assembled in a Brazilian facility.
                  I think the Brazilian government expects it will order a lot more Gripen E than it has ordered so far. The cost of setting up production and assembly facilities and buying TOT to assemble 15 aircraft would be prohibitive. I would expect Brazil to end up ordering at least 50 aircraft and possibly a number nearer 100. In addition I think Brazil will be the supplier for the South American market (with Colombia and Ecuador being potential customers). Just from a business perspective it would not make sense for all other Gripen E sales to be based on assembling aircraft in Sweden if it turns out that they can be assembled much more cheaply in Brazil. For example, if a country was interested in buying 20 aircraft and the package offered by SAAB was priced at $3 billion but the same package from Embraer was priced at $2.5 billion, it would make sense for Embraer to be the supplier.
                  Sum ergo cogito

                  Comment

                  • Loke
                    Rank 5 Registered User
                    • Jun 2008
                    • 3302

                    Defence and security company Saab is pleased to invite media, financial analysts and investors to the annual Gripen seminar in Stockholm, Sweden, on 17 March 2016. Join the seminar for an update on the current status of the Gripen programme.
                    Webinar
                    The seminar will be live-streamed on http://saab-seminar.creo.se/160317. It will also be possible to post questions over the web. For online participation, registration is not necessary.
                    Link with registration and more info: http://saabgroup.com/media/news-pres...ripen-seminar/

                    Comment

                    • swerve
                      Rank 5 Registered User
                      • Jun 2005
                      • 13610

                      Originally posted by FBW View Post
                      From my reading of the press releases from Saab and news outlets, there will be final assembly of the last 15 Brazilian Gripen in Brazil. Final assembly of all other Gripen E/F will be in Sweden though with some components sourced from Brazilian industry (at what stage is unclear- post initial Swedish AF contract?). The two seater F will have higher percentage Brazilian sourced content and engineering input, that point has been made clear. It is unclear if follow on orders from other clients would be assembled in a Brazilian facility.
                      That 15 is from the order of 36.

                      Since Gripen E is meant to replace not only the now withdrawn Mirages but the 100 or so F-5E & AMX operated by the FAB, I would expect the final number bought will be nearer 100 than 36, & any additional ones after the initial 36 will be built in Brazil. IIRC Brazil was also offered production of any orders from other countries in South America.
                      Juris praecepta sunt haec: honeste vivere, alterum non laedere, suum cuique tribuere.
                      Justinian

                      Comment

                      • FBW
                        FBW
                        Rank 5 Registered User
                        • Dec 2011
                        • 3295

                        Originally posted by swerve View Post
                        That 15 is from the order of 36.

                        Since Gripen E is meant to replace not only the now withdrawn Mirages but the 100 or so F-5E & AMX operated by the FAB, I would expect the final number bought will be nearer 100 than 36, & any additional ones after the initial 36 will be built in Brazil. IIRC Brazil was also offered production of any orders from other countries in South America.
                        That is what I said, the last 15 of the contracted 36 final assembly in Brazil. I believe that takes the contract out to 2024. We can expect follow on orders, assuming the turmoil in Brazilian economy/politics is resolved. But it is not a definite. I was unable to find any confirmation that any South American orders would be primarily built in the Brazilian factory. All the releases state is that Brazil will have "marketing and sales lead for Gripen in South America". It would make sense to have final assembly there, assuming some South American sales materialize.

                        I think it is important to note that even in the unlikely event that Brazil does not place a follow on order, Brazilian companies like embraer still gained industrial partnership with Saab that ensures workshare on all Gripen E/F (especially the F). And Embraer gains a customer for the KC 390.
                        Last edited by FBW; 14th March 2016, 19:07.

                        Comment

                        • JakobS
                          Rank 5 Registered User
                          • Aug 2015
                          • 155

                          Since Sweden is not going to be ordering any two seater F-versions the Brazilians have to fund the development for it. For this reason Saab have agreed that Embraer will manufacture all the future F-verison for export. Well, maybe not if we in Sweden decides we want two seaters, but for other export customers they will do it.

                          Also Saab really want Brazil to join them in the future for developing the next generation swedish fighter, so I think parallel production is possible even for future european orders of the plane to keep the good relation.

                          Comment

                          • lfd
                            lfd
                            Rank 3 Registered User
                            • Nov 2015
                            • 4

                            Originally posted by FBW View Post
                            That is what I said, the last 15 of the contracted 36 final assembly in Brazil. I believe that takes the contract out to 2024. We can expect follow on orders, assuming the turmoil in Brazilian economy/politics is resolved. But it is not a definite. I was unable to find any confirmation that any South American orders would be primarily built in the Brazilian factory. All the releases state is that Brazil will have "marketing and sales lead for Gripen in South America". It would make sense to have final assembly there, assuming some South American sales materialize.
                            While it is too soon to say for sure, Brazil would also be the natural partner for further work in the Third World (non-aligned countries). Specially if the current Third World ‘pink wave’ passes, as current events in Brazil, Venezuela, Argentina and even Southern Africa seem to indicate it will, hopefully. Question is if sanity will prevail enough to enable Embraer/Saab to sell to countries that need planes but now can neither afford nor get permission to buy.


                            I think it is important to note that even in the unlikely event that Brazil does not place a follow on order, Brazilian companies like embraer still gained industrial partnership with Saab that ensures workshare on all Gripen E/F (especially the F). And Embraer gains a customer for the KC 390.
                            Also, an eventual Sea Gripen, if the NAe So Paulo gets replaced if & when the economic crisis passes (not a given, Brazil is facing one of its worse economical and political crisis ever but with a leftie, authoritarian party deeply ingrained in government, having lost its demographical bonus and chance of reforms with backing from the international and internal markets). And an eventual electronic Gripen EW, which would be based on the F.

                            Comment

                            • lfd
                              lfd
                              Rank 3 Registered User
                              • Nov 2015
                              • 4

                              Originally posted by Spitfire9 View Post
                              I think the Brazilian government expects it will order a lot more Gripen E than it has ordered so far. The cost of setting up production and assembly facilities and buying TOT to assemble 15 aircraft would be prohibitive. I would expect Brazil to end up ordering at least 50 aircraft and possibly a number nearer 100.
                              Actually, the plan currently calls for 108 plus at least 24 Sea Gripens. I can be accelerated if operating Gripens prove cheap enough, or scaled back if specially the AMX prove cheaper or more adequate for its specialities of ground attack and close air support. Also, the Sea Gripens depend on the cooperation going smoothly on the E/Fs, since the Brazilian Navy is wary of the Swedes because of failed cooperation on torpedoes a few years ago.


                              In addition I think Brazil will be the supplier for the South American market (with Colombia and Ecuador being potential customers)
                              Also Argentina, if they give up on the Falklands formally, definitely and convincingly. Its irrendentism is somewhat associated with Peronism, so it could conceivably happen if the current liberal right government succeeds.

                              Comment

                              • TomcatViP
                                Rank 5 Registered User
                                • Nov 2011
                                • 6107

                                Third world countries? really?

                                Comment

                                • JakobS
                                  Rank 5 Registered User
                                  • Aug 2015
                                  • 155

                                  Originally posted by lfd View Post
                                  Also Argentina, if they give up on the Falklands formally, definitely and convincingly. Its irrendentism is somewhat associated with Peronism, so it could conceivably happen if the current liberal right government succeeds.
                                  The UK is one of the countries Sweden have best relationship with, a Gripen sale to Argentina will not happen. Just look at when Argentina and Brazil announced that Argentina wanted 24 Gripens, the people over at Saab had never heard of such a thing.

                                  Argentina letting the Falklands conflict go will never happen.

                                  Comment

                                  • swerve
                                    Rank 5 Registered User
                                    • Jun 2005
                                    • 13610

                                    Agreed. Macri obviously wants to set the Falklands aside & improve relations with the UK, but he's being careful not to give the impression that he'll drop the claim. He's publicly reiterated it.

                                    I think the best we can hope for is an agreement to disagree about the Falklands, & get on with other matters.
                                    Juris praecepta sunt haec: honeste vivere, alterum non laedere, suum cuique tribuere.
                                    Justinian

                                    Comment

                                    • Loke
                                      Rank 5 Registered User
                                      • Jun 2008
                                      • 3302

                                      PRAGUE The government on Wednesday approved the deployment of five Czech Gripen protection of Icelandic airspace. Heaven will be there, pilots with JAS-39 Gripen guard in October, the first troops will depart for Iceland in September. The approval of the proposal of the Ministry of Defence informed the press department of the Straka Academy.

                                      Defense Minister Martin Stropnick told reporters that the mission comes at around 36 million crowns from the defense budget. Send soldiers must now be approved by both houses of parliament, he said.

                                      The Czechs were guarding the airspace of Iceland twice, most recently last summer. This year will be on the Island again deployed five interceptor machines. Four will be directly involved in the surveillance, the fifth will be ready as a backup.

                                      Defense Ministry reckons that the mission will last from September 26 to November 10 and will be sent to 75 soldiers. Thomas Maruscak from the press department of the General Staff has previously said that it would "live cash" should last at least 21 days. The cost will be approximately 36 million.
                                      Google translated from: http://www.lidovky.cz/pet-gripenu-po...7_ln_domov_ELE

                                      36 million koruna with today's exchange rate is 1.47 million USD. Not too bad for sending 5 a/c and a detachment of 75 soldiers to Iceland for 6 1/2 weeks! Actually it sounds surprisingly cheap? Did something got lost in translation? What does '"live cash" should last at least 21 days' mean?

                                      Comment

                                      • Halo
                                        Rank 5 Registered User
                                        • Apr 2009
                                        • 212

                                        http://saab-seminar.creo.se/160317/s...n_seminar_2016
                                        Ongoing seminar, So far mostly market strategy and design philosophy and business targets, little technical news so far... Still hope to sell another 300 to reach 400 Gripen E/F's
                                        Last edited by Halo; 17th March 2016, 07:56.

                                        Comment

                                        • Halo
                                          Rank 5 Registered User
                                          • Apr 2009
                                          • 212

                                          8 Gripen order in ongoing negotiations in Slovakia

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