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SAAB Gripen and Gripen NG thread #4

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  • MSphere
    Senior Member
    • Feb 2010
    • 8983

    Originally posted by Halo View Post
    What differences can you spot between the Gripen Demo and the pictures released of Gripen E?
    New air intake by tail fin, bigger wingtip pods, still has non conformal antennas on tailfin and pitot tubes, cannon casing is different, what else?
    There will be no considerable differences to speak of.. Structurally it might differ a bit but the external shape shall not change, anymore..

    Comment

    • Urban
      Rank 4 Registered User
      • Jan 2015
      • 121

      Originally posted by alexz View Post
      With that kind of budget, finland could get probably 1 sqn of f-35 and 3 sqns of brand new gripen c/d plus 2-4 erieye-ng aew&c, if the commonality with sweeden is paramount. So it would be a mix of high end and cost effective low end platforms. A two tier fighter force imo would actually help in training fighter pilots, giving rookie pilots a 2seater platform and cheaper flight hours (on the gripen c/d) compared to the f-35 to build experience. When a f-35 is included in the consideration, I can't see the gripen e/f as being something cost effective when compared to the f-35.
      Finland are only offered The Gripen E, c/d will not be offered.

      Comment

      • Broccoli
        Rank 5 Registered User
        • Jul 2012
        • 272

        Originally posted by Halo View Post
        F35 has only been cheapest at one point and location, Nov 2008 in Norway, it will always be a lot more expensive to buy and even more so to operate compared to Gripen, we can discuss weather it will be 50 or 200% more over the lifecycle..

        BTW, F35 is on its way to kill off the Norwegian army even before any "new tankers", Finland can not effort a Norwegian fate
        Please do tell how much Gripen E costs to buy and operate? As far I know there ins't any operational right now.

        Who says that F-35 is killing Norwegian army?

        Comment

        • Urban
          Rank 4 Registered User
          • Jan 2015
          • 121

          Originally posted by Broccoli View Post
          Please do tell how much Gripen E costs to buy and operate? As far I know there ins't any operational right now.

          Who says that F-35 is killing Norwegian army?
          Except for the base price the rest is off cause speculative and estimations and depends of whats in the deal. It also very much depends on how many you want.

          45m$ to buy ....naked. (source gripen ceo told SVD 25-30% of the Brazil price is the price for the aircraft)

          With basic surrounding systems and some simulators etc 55-65m$. Source : Just check all the offers given to many country's in the past that where normal offers like the dutch one.)( Dutch airforce went from 85 gripens to 37 f-35's.)

          Full tech transfer, education, big country specific changes, support and tech transfer support support for building your own variant and the seagripen and future saab fighters

          Brazil deal / 126m$


          Operational cost will be around gripen c's cost maybe a tad higher since the aircraft has a little bit bigger engine and a few more systems to maintain. At the same time they have improved the ease of maintanance on gripen e even further.

          So....nothing to wonder about really, guaranteed under 10000$ an hour with fuel.


          Attached Files
          Last edited by Urban; 20th February 2016, 11:47.

          Comment

          • alexz
            Rank 5 Registered User
            • Nov 2010
            • 325

            Originally posted by Urban View Post
            Except for the base price the rest is off cause speculative and estimations and depends of whats in the deal. It also very much depends on how many you want.

            45m$ to buy ....naked. (source gripen ceo told SVD 25-30% of the Brazil price is the price for the aircraft)

            With basic surrounding systems and some simulators etc 55-65m$. Source : Just check all the offers given to many country's in the past that where normal offers like the dutch one.)( Dutch airforce went from 85 gripens to 37 f-35's.)

            Full tech transfer, education, big country specific changes, support and tech transfer support support for building your own variant and the seagripen and future saab fighters

            Brazil deal / 126m$


            Operational cost will be around gripen c's cost maybe a tad higher since the aircraft has a little bit bigger engine and a few more systems to maintain. At the same time they have improved the ease of maintanance on gripen e even further.

            So....nothing to wonder about really, guaranteed under 10000$ an hour with fuel.


            If the e/f is really cheaper then the c/d, why in the world saab is still marketing the c/d as a "cheaper solution" to the advanced e/f variant, for example to Slovakia? Isn't that graphic you shown is a contradiction to saabs sales behaviour?

            I have not seen any open official numbers that shows an e/f offer to any country that is cheaper than c/d model buy. That in itself (the e/f supposedly cheaper than c/d) is one of many saab marketing gimmicks that really just don't make sense.

            Comment

            • hopsalot
              Senior Member
              • Aug 2012
              • 3166

              Originally posted by alexz View Post
              If the e/f is really cheaper then the c/d, why in the world saab is still marketing the c/d as a "cheaper solution" to the advanced e/f variant, for example to Slovakia? Isn't that graphic you shown is a contradiction to saabs sales behaviour?

              I have not seen any open official numbers that shows an e/f offer to any country that is cheaper than c/d model buy. That in itself (the e/f supposedly cheaper than c/d) is one of many saab marketing gimmicks that really just don't make sense.
              No, that graphic isn't accurate, and you are right that if the Gripen NG were actually cheaper to buy and operate nobody would be interested in Gripen Cs.

              Just as a starting point the Gripen NG's engine is 20% more powerful.... it is slightly more efficient from a specific fuel consumption standpoint... but it is still going to burn significantly more fuel overall.

              Comment

              • OPIT
                Rank 5 Registered User
                • Aug 2005
                • 901

                Originally posted by alexz View Post
                If the e/f is really cheaper then the c/d (...)
                You're mixing up production and development costs with acquisition cost.

                Comment

                • alexz
                  Rank 5 Registered User
                  • Nov 2010
                  • 325

                  Originally posted by OPIT View Post
                  You're mixing up production and development costs with acquisition cost.
                  Then tell me why even saab is pushing new c/d aircrafts as a cheaper solution to the e/f?

                  Comment

                  • Spitfire9
                    Rank 5 Registered User
                    • Jul 2008
                    • 2832

                    Originally posted by Halo View Post
                    F35 has only been cheapest at one point and location, Nov 2008 in Norway...
                    What is special about Norway is that if you fly Gripen E's around, half of them drop out of the sky during their service life time. Clearly Gripen E is a very risky buy (and more expensive than F-35 because half of F-35's will not drop out of the Norwegian sky during their service life time).
                    Last edited by Spitfire9; 20th February 2016, 14:48.
                    Sum ergo cogito

                    Comment

                    • Urban
                      Rank 4 Registered User
                      • Jan 2015
                      • 121

                      Originally posted by alexz View Post
                      Then tell me why even saab is pushing new c/d aircrafts as a cheaper solution to the e/f?
                      Are they ? I thought it where just the faster to get version. You can get both dual seat's and single seat's within a few years. Gripen F will take many years before Brazil starts to produce them.
                      NEW Gripen E delivery's is probably 2022 earliest.Unless your order is big, then they open more production lines and it might go a bit faster.

                      @spitfire9 ?? troll feast today ?
                      Last edited by Urban; 20th February 2016, 15:04.

                      Comment

                      • JSR
                        JSR
                        Rank 5 Registered User
                        • Aug 2011
                        • 4976

                        Originally posted by Broccoli View Post
                        Russia has been lately sending all sort of warnings to Finland but apparently it's not working anymore. Before 2020 Russia is probably going to have another NATO country on it's border.
                        by 2020 there will be lot less Nato countries. Turkey will implode as Arabs cant support its economics for that long when wars are permanent and internal population increasing. Norway will have used it Oil fund. and will not be able to fly its F-35. Canada airforce will belong to Museum. Russia will be uncontested in Arctic.
                        Rafale ane Eurofighter line will be on verge of closing. not there any engine upgrades in line up. do they make anything in Finland?

                        http://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/...152900758.html
                        The Abu Dhabi Investment Authority (ADIA), one of the world's richest wealth funds, is planning to close its London offices.
                        Worth an estimated $773bn, ADIA has issued a statement saying the decision won't affect its investments or commitments to the UK.

                        Comment

                        • maurobaggio
                          Rank 5 Registered User
                          • Jul 2008
                          • 521

                          I can not understand so far: why only in this thread its has been describing the Brazil (Contract), and anyone so far it has been mentioned AFAIK the Switzerland (Contract)?

                          After all the agreement with Switzerland shall be much easier to understand, since it could be described as reference for most countries, once it has not been demanding such specific requires as the Brazil.

                          On the total value of the Switzerland contract that was voted in Switzerland: US $ 3.157 billion
                          1.Comparative Table Brazil / Switzerland

                          Type Number of Gripen NG Amount of Contract (Billions) Unit Cost (millions)
                          Brazil Gripen E/F 36 Us$ 4.5 US$ 125
                          Switzerland Gripen E 22 US$ 3.157 US$ 143
                          By less than the unit cost from Switzerland the Brazil would have enclosed in its contract:
                          • 100% ToT
                          • a new production line that will be installed in Brazil
                          • development of the new Gripen F in Brazil
                          • financial resources to keep the production line in Brazil with rate of the 3 aircraft's per year for five years

                          • Rights to export the Gripen NG in Latin America


                          With the second value of Switzerland contract has been provided by Eremit t would be:US$ 2,525 billions
                          Originally posted by maurobaggio View Post
                          official Swiss defence procurement documents

                          2.Comparative Table Brazil / Switzerland

                          Type Number of Gripen NG Amount of Contract (Billions) Unit Cost (millions)
                          Brazil Gripen E/F 36 Us$ 4.5 US$ 125
                          Switzerland Gripen E 22 US$ 2.525 US$ 115
                          By the increased of the 9% about the Switzerland cost per unit, the Brazil would have enclosed in its contract:
                          • 100% ToT
                          • a new production line that will be installed in Brazil
                          • development of the new Gripen F in Brazil
                          • financial resources to keep the production line in Brazil with rate of the 3 aircraft's per year for five years

                          • Rights to export the Gripen NG in Latin America


                          With the price of the Swiss Franc today, according to:
                          http://www.x-rates.com/calculator/?f...unt=3126000000

                          The source of information that I used on the contract of Switzerland

                          http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...ts-f-5s-04624/[/QUOTE]

                          http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-0...ct-gripen.html

                          Comment

                          • Broccoli
                            Rank 5 Registered User
                            • Jul 2012
                            • 272

                            Originally posted by JSR View Post
                            by 2020 there will be lot less Nato countries. Turkey will implode as Arabs cant support its economics for that long when wars are permanent and internal population increasing. Norway will have used it Oil fund. and will not be able to fly its F-35. Canada airforce will belong to Museum. Russia will be uncontested in Arctic.
                            Rafale ane Eurofighter line will be on verge of closing. not there any engine upgrades in line up. do they make anything in Finland?
                            1. There be more NATO countries.

                            2. You don't have any evidence to back up claim that Norway doesn't have money to fly F-35's.

                            3. Canada's air force belongs to museum? When they finally make the right decision to buy F-35 it will be decades ahead of anything Russian have.

                            4. Yes, Finland will be manufacturing parts for the aircraft what are going to purchased.

                            Russia is in a very bad state and that's why Putin is trying to do his best to distract people at home. Daily reminder that most Russian fanboys do not even live there... enough said.

                            Comment

                            • Spyhawk
                              Rank 42 Registered User
                              • Dec 2011
                              • 175

                              Originally posted by maurobaggio View Post
                              With the price of the Swiss Franc today, according to:
                              http://www.x-rates.com/calculator/?f...unt=3126000000
                              The Swiss Franc skyrocketed when it gave up its pegged value last year (+21% compared to the US dollar). You should do your calculation with the value of the Franc when the contract was agreed upon.
                              Last edited by Spyhawk; 20th February 2016, 17:04. Reason: dollars instead of euro.

                              Comment

                              • Broccoli
                                Rank 5 Registered User
                                • Jul 2012
                                • 272

                                Originally posted by Urban View Post
                                Except for the base price the rest is off cause speculative and estimations and depends of whats in the deal. It also very much depends on how many you want.

                                45m$ to buy ....naked. (source gripen ceo told SVD 25-30% of the Brazil price is the price for the aircraft)

                                With basic surrounding systems and some simulators etc 55-65m$. Source : Just check all the offers given to many country's in the past that where normal offers like the dutch one.)( Dutch airforce went from 85 gripens to 37 f-35's.)

                                Full tech transfer, education, big country specific changes, support and tech transfer support support for building your own variant and the seagripen and future saab fighters

                                Brazil deal / 126m$
                                Original Gripen if far more primitive so you could easily say that Textron Scorpion is better purchase. Brazil deal proves it's already more expensive that F-35A.

                                Comment

                                • The_5aab_God
                                  Rank 5 Registered User
                                  • Mar 2015
                                  • 161

                                  Originally posted by alexz View Post
                                  Then tell me why even saab is pushing new c/d aircrafts as a cheaper solution to the e/f?
                                  Thats curious. I don't quite believe that the Brazil deal is 25-30 percent flyaway cost either. I think its low, not quite that low though. Especially when you look at the cost for the defunct Swiss deal.

                                  Originally posted by JakobS View Post
                                  Here's a fresh photo from Saab, it's coming along nicely!

                                  [ATTACH=CONFIG]244102[/ATTACH]
                                  Thank you for the in progress picture. Its close! Would be cool if we got a new version of the paint scheme too.

                                  Comment

                                  • The_5aab_God
                                    Rank 5 Registered User
                                    • Mar 2015
                                    • 161

                                    Originally posted by Broccoli View Post

                                    Who says that F-35 is killing Norwegian army?
                                    F-35 is 5 percent of the Norwegian defense budget, and the defense budget is getting a 9.8 percent hike this year too.

                                    Comment

                                    • JSR
                                      JSR
                                      Rank 5 Registered User
                                      • Aug 2011
                                      • 4976

                                      Originally posted by Broccoli View Post
                                      1. There be more NATO countries.
                                      more does not mean more capability but more burden sharing.
                                      2. You don't have any evidence to back up claim that Norway doesn't have money to fly F-35's.
                                      Norway is taking money out of soverign wealth fund. with current prices and stock market. In 5 years they will not have anything left.

                                      3. Canada's air force belongs to museum? When they finally make the right decision to buy F-35 it will be decades ahead of anything Russian have.
                                      evidence is very clear. Canada does not have any money left. bombardier is bankrupt. Oil sands and alberta down under.
                                      4. Yes, Finland will be manufacturing parts for the aircraft what are going to purchased.
                                      Finland cannot manufacture anything. This dysfunctional model of manufacturing that every one wants to manufacture parts for F-35.
                                      Russia is in a very bad state and that's why Putin is trying to do his best to distract people at home. Daily reminder that most Russian fanboys do not even live there... enough said.
                                      with more tourist facilities. more wealthy people will spent money in Russia. they dont have any problem with hard currency or Gold.
                                      http://www.euronews.com/2016/02/09/t...tern-visitors/
                                      Russia is enjoying a tourism boom of Chinese visitors flocking there in ever increasing numbers.
                                      http://www.economist.com/news/europe...ssian-roulette
                                      How to lure rich Chinese to take a chance on Russia
                                      infact succesfull operation in Syria will encourge more wealth transfer from Arab world. as they respect military power application.

                                      Comment

                                      • Halo
                                        Rank 5 Registered User
                                        • Apr 2009
                                        • 212

                                        Originally posted by Broccoli View Post
                                        Please do tell how much Gripen E costs to buy and operate? As far I know there ins't any operational right now.

                                        Who says that F-35 is killing Norwegian army?
                                        Sweden used to calculate 90 Billion SEK to buy and operate 60 Gripen E for 25 (?) years, Norwegian budget is 264 MNOK to operate 48 F35 in Norway(already blown to pieces by exchange rate, sunk costs and excluding the new cruise missile target = the new and only unprotected airbase).

                                        The Norwegian head of army went public in Norways main newspaper, aftenposten.no, approx. 2 weeks ago regarding the corncern that the F35 will kill off the army (and navy too?)

                                        @JSR, Norway will always "have money" if they really need, they do have money because the use(d) to spend and invest them wisely. Some other countries waste their oil money on arms, corruption and consumption.

                                        Comment

                                        • Halo
                                          Rank 5 Registered User
                                          • Apr 2009
                                          • 212

                                          @ JSR, a little reality check for you here

                                          Most innovative countries
                                          http://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/20...ive-countries/

                                          Highest and lowest corruption
                                          http://indy100.independent.co.uk/art...er--xJUZ5u9j_x

                                          Most economically competitive countries in the world
                                          http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articl...s-in-the-world

                                          List of GDP per person, note what happened in Russian with the more than 50% drop in Ruble vs USD since 2014...
                                          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...PP)_per_capita

                                          We appreciate your concern but seems that we do not have to worry too much regarding Norway, Canada and Finland..

                                          Comment

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