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SAAB Gripen and Gripen NG thread #4

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  • Loke
    Rank 5 Registered User
    • Jun 2008
    • 3302

    Originally posted by The_5aab_God View Post
    I like gripen. I like Saab. I do not like propoganda
    I think most people here are aware that Gripen E was ranked third in e.g. the Swiss eval, and was not shortlisted after the technical eval in the Indian MMRCA; however in spite of being ranked third in Switzerland it did win (although referendum stopped the deal from moving forward.)

    It also lost in Norway, and withdrew from Canada and Denmark. I doubt it will win in Finland since the price of F-35 seems to be dropping steadily and by the time the Finnish are going to buy, it will probably be affordable.

    Anyway, don't be too negative; the Swiss leaks revealed something that I had long suspected: that Gripen E will have some top-notch EW capabilities, and lacking stealth, that's one important component you need to survive... more important than good kinematic performance IMHO.

    After seeing the Swiss eval I would rather be in a Gripen E with Meteor and IRIS-T, protected by a superior EW suite and brite-cloud, rather than in a super-fast Typhoon with inferior EW suite, inferior sensor fusion, and no AESA (but of course I would rather be in a Rafale than a Gripen and rather in a F-35 than a Rafale...)

    As for super cruise -- come on, don't you have any sense of humor? (let me guess: you are Swedish...)

    Comment

    • MSphere
      Senior Member
      • Feb 2010
      • 8983

      I love those F-35 fanboys masquerading as SAAB fans..

      Comment

      • Aurel
        Rank 5 Registered User
        • Oct 2003
        • 1178

        Originally posted by Confucius says View Post
        There is little doubt that India wants a fighter in the price range of a Gripen/SH, but probably still in the class of a Rafale/Typhoon. Obviously this is a bit of a challenge...
        If they leave their comfort zone and just buy some MiG-29 SMT/UPG they can get what they want, and that without all the headache of a new supply chain. This assumes they have sorted out the issues with said supply chain.

        Comment

        • obligatory
          Senior Member
          • Oct 2008
          • 7043

          someone registered less than a year ago, with 6 posts, alias "the saab god"
          spewing vinegar and nonsense over gripen.
          smells like double accounting to me.

          as for "class" its entirely down to priorities, sortie generation or range with heavy load ?
          you can pick one or the other, but not both, so: what is priority for a specific nation
          Last edited by obligatory; 17th February 2016, 00:33.

          Comment

          • The_5aab_God
            Rank 5 Registered User
            • Mar 2015
            • 161

            Originally posted by MSphere View Post
            I love those F-35 fanboys masquerading as SAAB fans..
            You are so edgy and hip! Is it like you masquerading as knowledgeable or intelligent? For the Record I am a Gripen and F-16 fan. Before Gripen It was Viggen. Watching you get fight with everyone here and crave attention like a child while also demanding proof in some areas and taking others as yet unknown evidence as the gospel because you guessed it is sad. Adults are talking.

            I think most people here are aware that Gripen E was ranked third in e.g. the Swiss eval, and was not shortlisted after the technical eval in the Indian MMRCA; however in spite of being ranked third in Switzerland it did win (although referendum stopped the deal from moving forward.)

            It also lost in Norway, and withdrew from Canada and Denmark. I doubt it will win in Finland since the price of F-35 seems to be dropping steadily and by the time the Finnish are going to buy, it will probably be affordable.

            Anyway, don't be too negative; the Swiss leaks revealed something that I had long suspected: that Gripen E will have some top-notch EW capabilities, and lacking stealth, that's one important component you need to survive... more important than good kinematic performance IMHO.

            After seeing the Swiss eval I would rather be in a Gripen E with Meteor and IRIS-T, protected by a superior EW suite and brite-cloud, rather than in a super-fast Typhoon with inferior EW suite, inferior sensor fusion, and no AESA (but of course I would rather be in a Rafale than a Gripen and rather in a F-35 than a Rafale...)
            You say it better than I can. You said it very well.

            obligatory
            someone registered less than a year ago, with 6 posts, alias "the saab god"
            spewing vinegar and nonsense over gripen.
            smells like double accounting to me.

            as for "class" its entirely down to priorities, sortie generation or range with heavy load ?
            you can pick one or the other, but not both, so: what is priority for a specific nation
            I don't come here very often because I was treated very rudely earlier. Nothing has changed as you can see. Smell whatever you like.

            Count in sudden agreement with hopsie's claims, references to my posts, very poorly concealed envy for supercruise (which the F-35 lacks),
            Half the posts in this thread are you.

            envy for supercruise?


            as well as reference to the previous debate about Gripen Demo vs NG..
            It was in this very thread. and Saab agrees with me about the demo vs prototype, but are welcome to disagree with them, and continue to look irrational and foolish.

            From Janes as well:

            Even though there are now no more C/D aircraft to deliver (the last one was handed over to the Swedish Air Force [SwAF] earlier in 2015), and the Linkoping production line has now begun work on the first E prototype (39-08), Nilsson said that there were options for potential new C/D customers.
            Why the determination to say demo is prototype? whats at stake other than your ego? If Demo is prototype, 8 years between prototypes?!

            LOL, I already have a gut feeling which F-35 worshipper is hiding his a$$ behind this very suspect account...
            Anything less than 100 percent loyalty to the Gripen, and an agreement on any part of F-35-- is certainly enough to become instantly suspect. You can only like or learn about one aircraft, it must be loved with all your heart and you must constantly be defending it, no matter how stupid the argument. This is why this forum can't have nice things, and why I regret coming here again. You can take me to jail for I have other loves, I love F-16s too I like F-18s and Super Hornet oh my! Since F-35 is replacing both F-18 and F-16, I take interest. Just like Gripen replacing Viggen years ago. I take interest.

            Yeah, brilliant detective work there. MSphere logic...
            clearly anyone who agrees somewhat and see the rational with both sides is the devil himself and must be instantly slandered. You can't have like of F-35 and Gripen!!


            What is the acceptable level of posts vs time vs opinion I should have in order to be heard? please respond. I need to know I am doing this right or my opinion is invalid apparently. to msphere, saab opinion also invalid (what would saab know about gripen anyway?) This is why it is so hard to find information about Gripen E and F even original Gripen. Stupid people arguing against the knowledge of the company that makes it. Better to whine at me for mentioning contradictions
            Last edited by The_5aab_God; 17th February 2016, 03:25.

            Comment

            • MSphere
              Senior Member
              • Feb 2010
              • 8983

              Originally posted by The_5aab_God View Post
              You are so edgy and hip! Is it like you masquerading as knowledgeable or intelligent? For the Record I am a Gripen and F-16 fan. Before Gripen It was Viggen. Watching you get fight with everyone here and crave attention like a child while also demanding proof in some areas and taking others as yet unknown evidence as the gospel because you guessed it is sad. Adults are talking.
              I am not masquerading as anything. Unlike you, I am not hiding behind multiple accounts...

              Originally posted by The_5aab_God View Post
              I don't come here very often because I was treated very rudely earlier. Nothing has changed as you can see. Smell whatever you like.
              And that's the point. You have like 6 posts on this forum and already were treated very rudely earlier? Guess why...
              And given your attitude, I don't think it's gonna change anytime soon...
              Last edited by MSphere; 17th February 2016, 10:48.

              Comment

              • Loke
                Rank 5 Registered User
                • Jun 2008
                • 3302

                Originally posted by MSphere View Post
                I am not masquerading as anything. Unlike you, I am not hiding behind multiple accounts...


                And that's the point. You have like 6 posts on this forum and already were treated very rudely earlier? Guess why...
                And given your attitude, I don't think it's gonna change anytime soon...
                Why such harsh words to a new-comer?

                I looked back and I saw he had some "discussions" with Urban, certainly not the best introduction to this forum.


                Let's give The_5aab_God a chance!

                Welcome The_5aab_God!

                (may I ask; is this your first forum? Your nick name is rather interesting, and could be one of the reasons why some people are acting strangely around you; no offence intended...)

                Loke's three advice to new-comers: Be polite, be on-topic, and be polite.

                Comment

                • Loke
                  Rank 5 Registered User
                  • Jun 2008
                  • 3302

                  Saab Gripen NGs destined for Sweden and Brazil will benefit from a new Identification Friend or Foe (IFF) system developed for integration on the fighter.

                  A total of 96 of the Finmeccanica-developed IFF systems, plus spare parts, will be delivered over a five-year period beginning in 2017 under the contract, which was signed at the end of 2015 but announced at the show.
                  The transponder being provided for Gripen - the Mode 5 M428 - is also being offered to the UK Ministry of Defence for a NATO requirement for a new standard of IFF, although Wigg could not say which platforms this includes.
                  Read more: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/ar...pen-ng-421914/

                  http://www.finmeccanica.com/en/-/m428-iff

                  Looks good!

                  Comment

                  • wellerocks
                    Rank 5 Registered User
                    • May 2010
                    • 76

                    Originally posted by Loke View Post
                    I think most people here are aware that Gripen E was ranked third in e.g. the Swiss eval, and was not shortlisted after the technical eval in the Indian MMRCA; however in spite of being ranked third in Switzerland it did win (although referendum stopped the deal from moving forward.)
                    And as for both evaluations, Gripens full specs wasn't used. In India, Saab was not able to prove Gripens AESA capability, and had to settle with the specifications of its current radar. Unlike Rafale and EF that managed to barely prove they had the capability to fit an upgraded version of their radars.

                    Originally posted by Loke View Post
                    It also lost in Norway, and withdrew from Canada and Denmark. I doubt it will win in Finland since the price of F-35 seems to be dropping steadily and by the time the Finnish are going to buy, it will probably be affordable.
                    Because the norwegian competition was not rigged or anything... The Gripen only "cost more" to buy and operate than the F-35 [whose price was specified without engines however]...

                    SAAB withdrew from the Canadian competition as it wasn't profitable to spend money and time on a deal where the F-35 was regarded as the obvious choice. SAAB withdrew from the Danish competition for the same reason, and expressed openly that if Denmark or Canada would declare any open competitions and be interested in the Gripen as a candidate, the Gripen would likely return into the competitions.

                    Finland however is not a NATO member, are interested in local production/manufacture/assembly, has expressed the need for long range capabilities and air patrol/aerial warfare as its primary goal with a history of wanting more "bang for the buck". The Gripen is in a much better stance than the F-35.

                    And no. The price of the F-35 is not something that is going down steadily. Problems in manufacturing, decreased orders and an unchanged [or even rising] cost of operation and maintenance is not something that would change the F-35 from being an expensive fighter to an inexpensive fighter.

                    Comment

                    • Loke
                      Rank 5 Registered User
                      • Jun 2008
                      • 3302

                      Originally posted by wellerocks View Post
                      And as for both evaluations, Gripens full specs wasn't used. In India, Saab was not able to prove Gripens AESA capability, and had to settle with the specifications of its current radar. Unlike Rafale and EF that managed to barely prove they had the capability to fit an upgraded version of their radars.


                      Because the norwegian competition was not rigged or anything... The Gripen only "cost more" to buy and operate than the F-35 [whose price was specified without engines however]...

                      SAAB withdrew from the Canadian competition as it wasn't profitable to spend money and time on a deal where the F-35 was regarded as the obvious choice. SAAB withdrew from the Danish competition for the same reason, and expressed openly that if Denmark or Canada would declare any open competitions and be interested in the Gripen as a candidate, the Gripen would likely return into the competitions.

                      Finland however is not a NATO member, are interested in local production/manufacture/assembly, has expressed the need for long range capabilities and air patrol/aerial warfare as its primary goal with a history of wanting more "bang for the buck". The Gripen is in a much better stance than the F-35.

                      And no. The price of the F-35 is not something that is going down steadily. Problems in manufacturing, decreased orders and an unchanged [or even rising] cost of operation and maintenance is not something that would change the F-35 from being an expensive fighter to an inexpensive fighter.
                      For the Swiss eval, all companies were given the chance to describe the 2015 version of their a/c. Of course they used the infamous "credibility factor" to downscale capabilities according to their state of development, however it is to be expected, the Swiss are careful people.

                      The Norwegian competition was "rigged" in the sense that Gripen would not have won even if it had been a fully stealthy 5. gen a/c offered at a lower price than F-35; however it was not really necessary to rig it since the requirements were put very high and Gripen did not meet all technical requirements.

                      The nonsense about pricing in Norway; I don't know why they did that, perhaps just to make the F-35 more acceptable to the anti-US left-wing party that was in government at that time; they stated they wanted the cheapest solution (which was assumed to be Gripen).

                      Regarding Finland; I agree that Saab may have small chance however as you say the Finns are very much focused on bang for the bucks, and unlike what you are claiming the F-35 costs are coming down (I suggest you visit the F-35 thread and ask Spud and the other experts about that).
                      Last edited by Loke; 17th February 2016, 12:06.

                      Comment

                      • MSphere
                        Senior Member
                        • Feb 2010
                        • 8983

                        Originally posted by Loke View Post
                        Why such harsh words to a new-comer?
                        Because he's obviously not a newcomer.. Nor does he behave like one.

                        Originally posted by Loke View Post
                        I looked back and I saw he had some "discussions" with Urban, certainly not the best introduction to this forum.
                        Loke's three advice to new-comers: Be polite, be on-topic, and be polite.
                        He got involved in three fights within his first six messages, what do you really expect him to do? Be polite?
                        Lion share of his posts are in late evening or early morning hours, this clearly is a guy from over the pond and we all know there are no SAAB fans there..

                        For me the case is closed..
                        Last edited by MSphere; 17th February 2016, 13:22.

                        Comment

                        • The_5aab_God
                          Rank 5 Registered User
                          • Mar 2015
                          • 161

                          I am not masquerading as anything. Unlike you, I am not hiding behind multiple accounts...
                          I'd like proof to back the accusation. or you are doing nothing more than trolling/hazing me

                          You have like 6 posts on this forum and already were treated very rudely earlier?
                          again what is the acceptable amount of inane chatter posts I must have before being accepted into this club? Congrats on yout 6000+ post. You must be super

                          Because he's obviously not a newcomer.. Nor does he behave like one.
                          I'll admit this isn't my first day on the internet,and I have a low tolerance for lies. what do newcomers behave like?

                          Lion share of his posts are in late evening or early morning hours, this clearly is a guy from over the pond and we all know there are no SAAB fans there..
                          typically ignorant statement. you are very consistent!

                          And no. The price of the F-35 is not something that is going down steadily. Problems in manufacturing, decreased orders and an unchanged [or even rising] cost of operation and maintenance is not something that would change the F-35 from being an expensive fighter to an inexpensive fighter.
                          You may want to research that a little more.


                          Why such harsh words to a new-comer?

                          I looked back and I saw he had some "discussions" with Urban, certainly not the best introduction to this forum.


                          Let's give The_5aab_God a chance!

                          Welcome The_5aab_God!

                          (may I ask; is this your first forum? Your nick name is rather interesting, and could be one of the reasons why some people are acting strangely around you; no offence intended...)

                          Loke's three advice to new-comers: Be polite, be on-topic, and be polite.

                          Thank you for welcome I'm probably going back to lurking here though. Msphere is offensive and rude while picking fights, all while complaining that others are rude and picking fights. I like my name i think it is clever an many other names for airplanes are taken

                          Allow me to be specific on Super Cruise.

                          F-35 Super Cruises. Gripen Super Cruises, Gripen Demo Super Cruises, Gripen E most likely Super Cruises. F-35 Super Cruises with brute strength, Gripens with smooth balance. But Super Cruise is Super Cruise. fighting over how its achieved is silly, and personnaly, I think it won't matter, The F-35 will rarely do it, just as Gripens rarely do it. The way it is treated around here, if the F-35 can do it, its probably not that special ha!

                          the reason for so much "fighting" is reading through thread and having many things to talk about in my post. I finally remembered my password so I can add my thoughts

                          Idiocy of "one or the other" F-35 or Gripen is fan sillyness. We are talking about Finland maybe doing both? will the pilots hate and not talk to each other for the next few decades? Why all or none? I do not understand why a forum about airplanes should mean just one airplane to the exclusion of all others. You can like and be interested in many airplanes. Growing up I had Bill Gunston books, always lots of airplanes to see and like. I still have Future Warplanes where Gripen model is shown in the green Viggen Camouflage!!

                          Msphere complained earlier that insulting the poster just showed he had no counter. Well thank you Msphere for showing that here.
                          Last edited by The_5aab_God; 17th February 2016, 14:51.

                          Comment

                          • The_5aab_God
                            Rank 5 Registered User
                            • Mar 2015
                            • 161

                            Originally posted by Loke View Post
                            The Norwegian competition was "rigged" in the sense that Gripen would not have won even if it had been a fully stealthy 5. gen a/c offered at a lower price than F-35; however it was not really necessary to rig it since the requirements were put very high and Gripen did not meet all technical requirements.

                            The nonsense about pricing in Norway; I don't know why they did that, perhaps just to make the F-35 more acceptable to the anti-US left-wing party that was in government at that time; they stated they wanted the cheapest solution (which was assumed to be Gripen).

                            Regarding Finland; I agree that Saab may have small chance however as you say the Finns are very much focused on bang for the bucks, and unlike what you are claiming the F-35 costs are coming down (I suggest you visit the F-35 thread and ask Spud and the other experts about that).
                            Again I agree with you. you put it nicely.

                            They are talking about 400 + F-35 order for the US alone. That is a lot of airplanes. even GAO is saying the cost is coming down and the big buy will see to it. If F-35 is super expensive, and too expensive for anyone to buy, yay rest easy. But why arguing cost coming down? The cost is coming down, that is going to happen the question is how much can it come down? if not enough, then other options happen. But emotional arguments about something that will or won't happen in a few years is silly. wait and see. it is what it is.


                            I am on other forums I am on bodybuilding.com. names need to be funny or large and too much. ha!
                            Last edited by The_5aab_God; 17th February 2016, 15:27.

                            Comment

                            • MSphere
                              Senior Member
                              • Feb 2010
                              • 8983

                              Originally posted by The_5aab_God View Post
                              - I'd like proof to back the accusation. or you are doing nothing more than trolling/hazing me
                              - again what is the acceptable amount of inane chatter posts I must have before being accepted into this club? Congrats on yout 6000+ post. You must be super
                              - I'll admit this isn't my first day on the internet,and I have a low tolerance for lies. what do newcomers behave like?
                              - typically ignorant statement. you are very consistent!
                              Good morning to you!!
                              As said, for me the case is closed..

                              Comment

                              • garryA
                                Rank 5 Registered User
                                • Dec 2015
                                • 1120

                                Guys be more mature , come on

                                Comment

                                • The_5aab_God
                                  Rank 5 Registered User
                                  • Mar 2015
                                  • 161

                                  Originally posted by MSphere View Post
                                  Good morning to you!!
                                  As said, for me the case is closed..
                                  I am not an alternate account. false accusation is false. Either make it a formal case so I can prove it or drop it.

                                  Play the ball, not the man. If I am as bad as you say my points should be easy to correct right?
                                  Last edited by The_5aab_God; 17th February 2016, 17:37.

                                  Comment

                                  • hopsalot
                                    Senior Member
                                    • Aug 2012
                                    • 3166

                                    Originally posted by The_5aab_God View Post
                                    I am not an alternate account. false accusation is false. Either make it a formal case so I can prove it or drop it.

                                    Play the ball, not the man. If I am as bad as you say my points should be easy to correct right?

                                    If you think there is a chance he might actually support his arguments you really must be new here...

                                    Comment

                                    • Robbiesmurf
                                      Rank 5 Registered User
                                      • Jul 2014
                                      • 587

                                      Originally posted by The_5aab_God View Post
                                      I am not an alternate account. false accusation is false. Either make it a formal case so I can prove it or drop it.

                                      Play the ball, not the man. If I am as bad as you say my points should be easy to correct right?
                                      You are certainly not false. You perspective is clear and correct. Unfortunately some of the posters here have as the Dutch say, 'long toes'. They are stepped on too easily.
                                      A number of them do insult many here on the forum, they however are very upset when it happens to them. They can give it but they can't take it......
                                      Oh, btw, they can post very pretty graphs and pictures. The veracity of them though is questionable..

                                      Comment

                                      • MSphere
                                        Senior Member
                                        • Feb 2010
                                        • 8983

                                        Originally posted by hopsalot View Post
                                        If you think there is a chance he might actually support his arguments you really must be new here...
                                        Hopsy, no need to answer your own posts, really..

                                        Comment

                                        • Robbiesmurf
                                          Rank 5 Registered User
                                          • Jul 2014
                                          • 587

                                          Originally posted by MSphere View Post
                                          Hopsy, no need to answer your own posts, really..
                                          I think you've just made his point..

                                          Comment

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